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      /  The state of Amiga NG hardware?
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agami 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 5-Mar-2023 5:08:27
#21 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1508
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
Karlos wrote:
@bennymee

Quote:
Besided that, switching to another cpu needs a lot more development / time


I am going to have to call that out. Moving from 68K to PPC took significant time and effort because much of the source material was written in assembler. However, it was ported to C. That's the heavy work done and dusted from an architectural perspective. Not a lot is particularly dependent on PPC.

I'm not downplaying the effort required to migrate the OS and toolchain and I'd agree that some targets are significantly more difficult from a backwards compatibility perspective than others.

Yep, a few low level systems and drivers for the target hardware, and the rest would port across relatively easily. If they could just stop being so litigious and get out of their own way.

With their current pool of developers (paid and otherwise), I estimate an initial port to PiStorm32 (CM4, Lite, Standalone) at the signaled pace of 3.1.4 - 3.2.x releases, could be accomplished in 12-18 months.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 5-Mar-2023 12:46:00
#22 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 607
From: Unknown

@Karlos

there is no resurgence of 68k.
emulator is emulator and nothing more than emulator.
if you want to use emulator on rpi just use uae onr rpi and Amiga os 4.1 on it.
patch uae to use amiga mouse and keyboard like emu86 or whatever this crap on pistorm is called

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Hypex 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 5-Mar-2023 12:49:10
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11055
From: Greensborough, Australia

@agami

Quote:
MorphOS are quietly working on a port away from PPC. My money is still on x86, but there are some whispers that it might be ARM.


There is that video on AMD64 IIRC that runs well. Though maybe x64 is too late now. They are running on Mac hardware and Mac is now moving away from x86 back to RISC again on ARM. So perhaps they should move to ARM instead. Then they'll be ready for Armapple hardware.

Quote:
And back to A-Eon, Trev has also expressed interest in moving to some custom ARM based solution because he would hate for Amiga(One) to just be a “PC”.


Have you seen this video? He doesn't want see OS4 users wearing pants. Now that's just silly.

OS4 pants

Quote:
I guess he hasn’t cracked open the case and looked inside of his X5000.


Why would he when he has a POWER9 18 core 96MB monster!

https://www.talospace.com/2018/12/who-got-talos-ii-order-1.html

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Karlos 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 5-Mar-2023 12:57:05
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3857
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@ppcamiga1

No 68K resurgence... Hmm.

That must be why there wasn't an A500 mini. It must also be why theres no Pi based emulation. It must also be why there's no sort of FPGA solutions. It must be why there's nothing like an AA3000+ motherboard, or any new accelerator cards of any kind. It must be why nobody outside of a few coffin dodging Amiga classic users care about 68K and certainly nothing going on in the Atari side.

Meanwhile the NG scene couldn't be hotter! You night get an A1222 soon. After the best part of a decade of it being first proposed.

As always, this is the view of the world when your own colon lining is millimetres from your eyes.

Last edited by Karlos on 05-Mar-2023 at 01:06 PM.

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Kronos 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 5-Mar-2023 12:58:05
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2402
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:

There is that video on AMD64 IIRC that runs well. Though maybe x64 is too late now. They are running on Mac hardware and Mac is now moving away from x86 back to RISC again on ARM. So perhaps they should move to ARM instead. Then they'll be ready for Armapple hardware.



Oh boy.....

MorphOS runs on Mac because they were the only non retarded PPC available (and still are) while Intel Mac were often the most retarded x86 PC available.

The AMD64 demo was done on a normal ATX board and statements from the team are very clear that Intel Mac won't be an option.

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Hypex 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 5-Mar-2023 13:00:05
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11055
From: Greensborough, Australia

@BigD

Or could it be the king of the mountain slithering down some midnight oil?

In any case this scene from Pleasantville demonstrates the grievance of one who wonders where is Tabor is? Did he even preorder? We may never know. But, the pot thickens. Where is his Tabor?

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Karlos 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 5-Mar-2023 13:03:37
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3857
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Hypex

Quote:
Why would he when he has a POWER9 18 core 96GB monster!
(correction mine)

Phwoarr! Just imagine running WBPattern Prefs on that bad boy!

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agami 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 6-Mar-2023 1:01:43
#28 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1508
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Hypex

Quote:
Hypex wrote:
@agami

Quote:
I guess he hasn’t cracked open the case and looked inside of his X5000.


Why would he when he has a POWER9 18 core 96MB monster!

https://www.talospace.com/2018/12/who-got-talos-ii-order-1.html

His answer to "What is the most expensive machine (byte-4-buck) on which I can run Linux?".

And it's been smooth sailing for him. NOT!

Last edited by agami on 06-Mar-2023 at 01:01 AM.

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agami 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 6-Mar-2023 1:07:13
#29 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1508
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
Karlos wrote:
@ppcamiga1

That must be why there wasn't...

You forgot to mention how there weren't any updated retail releases to AmigaOS 3 for 68k.

Quote:
As always, this is the view of the world when your own colon lining is millimetres from your eyes.

He should check for polyps while he's up there

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Karlos 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 6-Mar-2023 14:24:22
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3857
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@agami

Quite. I left it out because of the current situation, but it's obvious that even the vendor of PPC OS4 understands the situation better than this arseclown.

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Hammer 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 6-Mar-2023 23:36:14
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4897
From: Australia

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@Karlos

there is no resurgence of 68k.
emulator is emulator and nothing more than emulator.
if you want to use emulator on rpi just use uae onr rpi and Amiga os 4.1 on it.
patch uae to use amiga mouse and keyboard like emu86 or whatever this crap on pistorm is called

68060 converts variable length 68K CISC into fixed length RISC-like instructions via the hardware decoders.

All modern X86 CPU designs have departed from X86 CISC microarchitecture design.

PiStorm Emu68 is a bare metal that is closer to Transmeta's approach and Amiga's data stored in RPI's memory is bare metal Amiga 68K.

UAE under memory-protected with multitasking OS is not bare metal.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 6-Mar-2023 23:59:47
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12667
From: Norway

@Hammer

Yeh UAE is a lot of code, emulating a bunch of addresses spaces, a bunch of registers, a bunch of sound stuff, and on x86 / amd it do byte swap thing.

the PiStorm/Emu68K/ARM gets way not needing byte swap thing, does need address emulation, chipset emulation or sound emulation, all that other crap.

Quote:
RPI's memory is bare metal Amiga 68K.


And jit compiler you don’t see, and jit cache.

Implementation written by different people also preform differently.
but there is overhead when you compile, there is overhead, when you execute. Too many flushes too often can kill performance on any JIT compiler and break the illusion at worst moments.

you can see differences between different real 680x0 cpu’s too, but I guess the difference it’s more of surprise with JIT.

Personally I think worst is chipset emulation, the CPU emulation is what is, and there is no replacement for it, no new multicore 68K chips.

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Hammer 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 7-Mar-2023 2:24:57
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4897
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Yeh UAE is a lot of code, emulating a bunch of addresses spaces, a bunch of registers, a bunch of sound stuff, and on x86 / amd it do byte swap thing.

On modern very wide superscalar X86 CPUs, byte swap is not a major issue when Intel RaptorLake and AMD Zen 4 CPUs handle PS3 emulation just fine.

Wii, Xbox 360, and PS3 are the three last major big endian gaming platforms.

PPC emulation performance improves with lower latencies (e.g. Zen v1 vs Zen v2 vs Zen v3 vs Zen v4) which also benefits the very high frame rate in competitive gaming PCs.


Quote:

And jit compiler you don’t see, and jit cache.

Modern X86 CPUs have a trace cache/uOP cache (Intel) or OP cache (AMD Zen) that stores decoded instructions in a cache that is faster than the L1 cache.


Quote:

Implementation written by different people also preform differently.
but there is overhead when you compile, there is overhead, when you execute. Too many flushes too often can kill performance on any JIT compiler and break the illusion at worst moments.

you can see differences between different real 680x0 cpu’s too, but I guess the difference it’s more of surprise with JIT.

Personally I think worst is chipset emulation, the CPU emulation is what is, and there is no replacement for it, no new multicore 68K chips.


Emu68's translation process will consume the main CPU resources which are hardware accelerated on modern X86 CPU designs.

Playing Quake 68K, RPI 3A+/PiStorm/Emu68K delivers about Pentium II 266/Celeron 300A. It's slightly faster on RPI 4B/PiStorm/Emu68K.



_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

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Livebyfaith 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 27-May-2023 4:11:36
#34 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2010
Posts: 26
From: Unknown

@AmigaMac

I just got my Amigaone X5000 this week! I bought it from Amedia computer in France, shipped to the US. It was expensive, but not too much more than I would have paid for a top of the line PC or a good Macbook pro. Of course they can do a lot more than my Amiga can, but my Amiga brings me more joy than either of those systems do. And since I'd rather give my money to the Amiga community, I decided to finally get into real Amiga hardware.

Only had it for 2 days or so now, but I am really enjoying it. It has it's limitations, of course, but we all know that we will have to deal with those, but in this day and age I have plenty of ways to do the things I have to do that my Amiga can't do. I already have a pc and Mac on my desk and with a phone along side them, so they can play youtube, listen to spotify, edit video, etc. And my Amiga will be there for me to have fun with and do as much as I can with it.

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Trixie 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 27-May-2023 5:20:09
#35 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 2084
From: Czech Republic

@Livebyfaith

Come over to amigans.net, a site that is more focused on AmigaOS4. We'll get you sorted to make the most of your X5000.

_________________
The Rear Window blog

AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

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redfox 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 27-May-2023 5:55:51
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 2048
From: Canada

@Livebyfaith

Congratulations. I hope the Amigaone X5000 works well for you.

Trixie and many others are very helpful with questions about OS4 and the X5000.



redfox

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Gregor 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 27-May-2023 8:46:38
#37 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2011
Posts: 212
From: Unknown

@Livebyfaith
Quote:
I just got my Amigaone X5000 this week! I bought it from Amedia computer in France, shipped to the US. It was expensive, but not too much more than I would have paid for a top of the line PC or a good Macbook pro. Of course they can do a lot more than my Amiga can, but my Amiga brings me more joy than either of those systems do. And since I'd rather give my money to the Amiga community, I decided to finally get into real Amiga hardware.


Wellcome to the X5000 user's group !-)

Quote:
Only had it for 2 days or so now, but I am really enjoying it. It has it's limitations, of course, but we all know that we will have to deal with those, but in this day and age I have plenty of ways to do the things I have to do that my Amiga can't do. I already have a pc and Mac on my desk and with a phone along side them, so they can play youtube, listen to spotify, edit video, etc. And my Amiga will be there for me to have fun with and do as much as I can with it.


Many of these limitations are only in the AmigaOS4. If you use additionally Linux and MorphOS on your X5000, you can fill many of the gaps, especially what comes to WWW browsers. There are very few tasks I cannot currently do in my X5000 by taking the best of each of these three OSs (login to Protonmail is the only one I can suddenly remember).

If you are familiar to Linux and interested to test it on your X5000, you can find excellent help from Hyperion's X5000 Linux forum (see https://forum.hyperion-entertainment.com/). There is also an AmigaOS4 forum, but it is not very active nowadays.

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Livebyfaith 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 27-May-2023 13:45:36
#38 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2010
Posts: 26
From: Unknown

@Trixie

Thank you. I tried, but I think I might have tried the wrong password too many times or something because it says my account was disabled.

I have to try to get a hold of an administrator, so hopefully I will be able to do that soon.

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Livebyfaith 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 27-May-2023 13:51:50
#39 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2010
Posts: 26
From: Unknown

@Gregor

Quote:

Gregor wrote:

Wellcome to the X5000 user's group !-)


Many of these limitations are only in the AmigaOS4. If you use additionally Linux and MorphOS on your X5000, you can fill many of the gaps, especially what comes to WWW browsers. There are very few tasks I cannot currently do in my X5000 by taking the best of each of these three OSs (login to Protonmail is the only one I can suddenly remember).

If you are familiar to Linux and interested to test it on your X5000, you can find excellent help from Hyperion's X5000 Linux forum (see https://forum.hyperion-entertainment.com/). There is also an AmigaOS4 forum, but it is not very active nowadays.


I am not really familiar with Linux. I do own a MorphOS license for a G5 Mac, that I have tried a little bit of. But I think I prefer OS4.

I do want to try MorphOS on the x5000 at some point though. However someone mentioned to me that my 1.8ghz G5 would be superior to my x5000 5040 2.2 ghz. From your experience, would you agree?

If so I would be less excited about trying it as I already have the G5 up and running Morphos 3.18.

Thanks

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Gregor 
Re: The state of Amiga NG hardware?
Posted on 27-May-2023 16:55:22
#40 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2011
Posts: 212
From: Unknown

@LivebyfaithQuote:
I am not really familiar with Linux. I do own a MorphOS license for a G5 Mac, that I have tried a little bit of. But I think I prefer OS4.


Me too ;). I use MOS only for running Wayfarer. AmigaOS4 is my 'home'.

One important point about Linux: it can use all the cores you have in your CPU. So, with X5040 you have the power of 4 cores, vs. only one with AmigaOS and MOS.

Quote:
I do want to try MorphOS on the x5000 at some point though. However someone mentioned to me that my 1.8ghz G5 would be superior to my x5000 5040 2.2 ghz. From your experience, would you agree?


I have never used MOS in any other macine than X5000, so I cannot compare... But MOS is very 'light' operating system and so far I have not needed any more power.

But the critical point is the graphics board. Unless you install two different boards in your machine (that is nowadays possible), you have to make compromises. Which one do you have in your X5000? MOS does not supportat the newer boards (e.g. R7, R9, RX) usually delivered with X5000.

Quote:
If so I would be less excited about trying it as I already have the G5 up and running Morphos 3.18.


Probably X5000 does not give you any 'extra' with MOS, but if you like to test it you can install it first on an USB stick. It is very difficult, unless impossible, to install AmigaOS and MOS on the same HD, so you need anyway a second disk unit.

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