@Hammer

Blameshifting is about putting the blame on something else rather than taking responsibility.

Doesn't matter because they didn't know.

@Hammer

That is also such a classic "Look at these books, look at these powerfull people involved, look at....".

You're pathetic. Learn to take responsibility. You're supposed to be grown up.

@hotrod

You're an idiot. You're an ignorant fool.

Last edited by Hammer on 22-Jun-2024 at 02:32 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 22-Jun-2024 at 02:31 AM.

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@Lou

Quote:

The C65's VIC-III was gonna exceed A1000 graphics.

Unlike AGA, C65 has no modern games (for 1991) to bridge the gap between hardware generation. C65 is facing similar problems like Atari ST shifting into Falcon.

A1000 still has HAM6 mode.

https://youtu.be/1CHlPN2v64U?t=685
A500 HAM6 mode running Quake demo1 benchmark (21.27 fps) with CPU boost via PiStorm-Emu68-RPi 3A @ 1500Mhz. It's an approximation of VGA with 4096 colors palette.

C65's design was mostly competed by December 1990 which is followed by bootable AA3000+ revision 0 in Feb 1991.

C65 doesn't have the memory bandwidth to match AA Lisa's entry-level SVGA display capability. 16.7 million color palette is optional with SVGA cards like ET4000 while it's standard for AA.

C65's 320x200ish 256 colors with 4096 color palette is nearly VGA.

AA3000+ revision 1 has surface mount chips like A600/A1200 and working DSP3210 audio system before project was frozen.

Without math compute increase, Commodore's AAA and AA+ would be nearly useless for textured map 3D games like AA.

With 68020+ CPUs, the Amiga has access to 32-bit hardware barrel shifters and 2-cycle add instructions. DSP3210 provides very fast mul instructions for integer and FP32 in dual pipelines.

Last edited by Hammer on 22-Jun-2024 at 03:06 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 22-Jun-2024 at 03:02 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 22-Jun-2024 at 02:56 AM.

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@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote: @ppcamiga1 Sowhat? By the time you could get FastRAM on an CD32 and at that price you could just get a 486 anyways. "Naked" A1200/CD32 was far to weak while expanded ones were expensive and far to rare to be a viable games market.

He's obviously making the case that in addition to AGA needing to have chunky graphics, the CD32 and A1200 systems would need to have launched with the requisite fast RAM in order to save C= from its 1994 bankruptcy.

What of course he fails to understand, is that the install base for those 2 systems combined was not large enough to justify an official (commercial) id software port.
The only way to get an official port would've been if C= could've demonstrated a cheap and easy (loss leader) upgrade path for the A500 install base.

The video with which he's so enamored, is not part of the same zeitgeist, but does anyone think it's worth the time to convince him otherwise?

_________________
All the way, with 68k

bhabbott Quote:

Tramiel - the guy who knew nothing about computers but 'knew how to ship boxes'. He screwed the dealer network so badly that Commodore never fully recovered. Tramiel's idea of 'value' was the C16.

I mentioned that Jack had faults. His "business is war" philosophy was one of them. Negotiations where he would win near term would cause him to lose long term. Business partners need to share in business success too. Diplomacy was not his strength.

Jack had limited understanding of his computer products but enough to buy MOS which was a smart move. He failed to upgrade the MOS fab to take advantage of vertical integration and he only partially utilized the talent of Chuck Peddle and the MOS developers. With his limited computer understanding and leadership, the CBM Pet, C64 and Atari ST were produced quickly and offered good value. I doubt Irving Gould or Mehdi Ali had as much computer understanding as Jack and they seemed to have less of a sense for value. Then there was Bill Sydnes who understood computers but didn't seem to have any sense for value. Trevor Dickinson owned Amigas and doesn't seem to have much understanding of them or of value but maybe he doesn't care and just creates his own self funded dreamland, Amiga Neverland.

Steve Jobs had limited understanding of computers forcing engineers to release overheating artsy computers and deriding the Amiga as "too much hardware". He didn't understand value as much as he understood margin, which is important. Jay Miner had a much better understanding of computers and value but less business understanding. He was responsible for bringing the 68000 Amiga to market with easily the best CPU, chipset and value in its class. The Amiga Corporation team made it and CBM f'ed it up. As a result, Jay Miner is a mostly unknown figure while Steve Jobs is a legend.

bhabbott Quote:

CBM was delivering value right up until it went bankrupt.

CBM Amiga hardware had declining value after the Amiga 500 and 2000 releases. The Amiga had the best value PC from about 1985-1987.

1985-1987 Amiga had the best hardware and at a reasonable price.
1988-1990 Amiga hardware was competitive and reasonably priced but no longer high end.
1991-1993 Amiga hardware was low end, underpowered and becoming outdated.
1994 Amiga is bankrupt.

The cheapest way to provide value back then was upgrading the chipset but engineers received the "no new chips" directive instead. It took CBM 7 years to get out a major upgrade to the chipset. CBM introducing an Amiga 600 with 68000@7MHz and ECS in 1992 when the 1992 Amiga 1200 with 68EC020@14MHz and AGA was already severely underpowered compared to the low end competition (386@20-40MHz+VGA typical). CBM had become a dinosaur instead of a tech leader. You really don't see the declining value?

Hammer Quote:

When Doom was released in December 1993, 486s are already in Intel's revenue and typical PC majority.

Just because Intel was selling mostly 486s does not mean that was the typical PC hardware in 1993. It would likely take several years to replace old hardware although that was accelerated by Doom. I expect 386s were still the most common PC hardware in 1993 but maybe not by the end of 1994. Let's not forget that there were PC business users still using 286s and 386s that didn't play games.

Lou Quote:

The 65C816 was developed for Apple. Other than being able to address 24bit memory - the 65CE02 (20bit addressable memory) developed for the C65, is a better 8/16bit implementation with 25% IPC over the 65C02 while also adding 16bit functionality. That said, the video I link used an ARM processor as an 'accelerator' that includes a routine to downgrade to C64 graphics. It's still quite impressive. The C65's VIC-III was gonna exceed A1000 graphics. The 65CE02 was to run at 3.57Mhz. This would have killed Amiga sales and could/would have produced a console to beat the SNES and MegaDrive/Genesis in capability.

The C65 was a good example of CBM priorities gone wrong. They created a SoC with a 256 color mode chipset for the C64 before the Amiga wasting valuable development resources in 1990-1991 that could have been used to get AGA/AA+ out faster. The stock C65 with 128kiB of memory would not have been as powerful as the Amiga 1000. A 320x200x8 mode uses half the memory and double buffered it uses all the memory. The Amiga has a copper and HAM mode to give more colors which may be slower than a 256 color mode but bank switching isn't fast either (code and bitmap would be in different 64kiB banks). The C65 would have been a nice upgrade in 1985 instead of the C128 but it was late and out of date like the 1990 C64GS, one of the biggest console flops ever. The 1992 comparison should not have been between a C65 and 68000+ECS Amiga 600 but between a C65 and 68EC030@28MHz with AA+ Amiga.

Last edited by matthey on 22-Jun-2024 at 04:16 AM.

yet another time watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kDM3S7gQTk
wonderfull
waht is possible on a1200 with proper graphics
chunky pixel in aga and Commodore will be not bankrupt

@ppcamiga1

It's a broken clock who's right twice a day, not a broken record...

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@all

Instead of talking for nothing here, join your forces to create a new good Amiga 68k computer with the same spirit than Commodore did back in the days...

It's quiet easy to build an interesting computer, you have just first to understand that they are some things to do and some others not (Yang mentality)...

We have all to build a new Amiga 68k : each of you have their own talent, you have just to work together in the same right direction...

Last edited by CosmosUnivers on 22-Jun-2024 at 07:42 AM.
Last edited by CosmosUnivers on 22-Jun-2024 at 07:40 AM.

@Karlos

Quote:

Recently, I wanted to assess the actual performance of Akiko at this task, on a 68030 equipped CD32. Specifically I wanted to know if it had any legs. Conventional wisdom is that it's basically useless after you get to 020+Fast

Would it make sense to make such accessment also for the Graffitti card?

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@CosmosUnivers

Quote:

with the same spirit than Commodore did back in the days

Meaning what then? We have so many options today, what’s lacking?

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @CosmosUnivers Quote: with the same spirit than Commodore did back in the days Meaning what then? We have so many options today, what’s lacking?

Lets see, C= had no plan for 68k, they barely had any one for anything post C64.

Then they had the chance to not only get one for almost free but they could als f##k Tramiel as a bonus.

Now they went back to having no plan for a while.

Next they made the Amiga into a bigger C64 (A500).

They had no plan while selling millions.

Finally the allowed a to_little_to_late update they failed to market, sold a few units and went the way of the Dodo.

I'm sure that could be replicated on a smaller scale today, and some fractions are obviously right on track making it a reality.....

_________________
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@CosmosUnivers

Quote:

you have just to work together in the same right direction...

The right direction, not use a dead CPU, so 68K is out of the question,
you have two options ARM or x64, in any case huge amount of work need to get the OS to be backwards compatible. However, EUAE worked well.

the second problem is “work together� well the community is not good at that, for obvious reasons.

In any case, we are seeing QEMU becoming good option for real PowerPC hardware, thanks recent to improvements in emulation, and faster ram. To compete with that you need hardware using the recent standard in memory and bus technology.

In the spirit of modern technology. Not some throw away Commodore tech from the 80’s no one use anymore.

One reason why commodore fail was it did not adapt PCI, expensive nonstandard upgrade, made commodore look overpriced and hugely expensive. it was failure to leverage the highly competitive marked on IBM PC compatibles. Commodore can’t get their new chip out in time, before the bankruptcy, perhaps they should not have been in the graphic chip market.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Jun-2024 at 11:51 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Jun-2024 at 09:51 AM.

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@kolla

Quote:

Meaning what then? We have so many options today, what’s lacking?

Many options today with near zero new coders = big fail !

Because they go into wrong directions, it's as simple as that... Even when you explain they are wrong, they continue in their bad ways... "Lol"... For me, it's a plot will, but that's another story...

I cannot explain more in public, because they will steal part(s) of my ideas (for example, they steal my idea of a new Kickstart). Anyways, in short we have very first find THE right direction before everthing, meaning a very deep thinking. And it's really quiet easily, we just have to have common sense... And with some Yang brains together, it's much more easier...

Forget all Yin mentality (= illuminati, free masons and their followers), we can do nothing with that...


@Kronos

Commodore had a success plan, they sold millions computers. They found the recip. They created a real market. For me, they failed because too many softwares and hardwares mistakes...


@NutsAboutAmiga

Typical example of a Yin "guy", nothing really started, "he" think it's already dead...



An Amiga 68k come back is absolutely possible these days, it's only a question of the right ideas with a small Yang talented team...

Last edited by CosmosUnivers on 22-Jun-2024 at 10:53 AM.
Last edited by CosmosUnivers on 22-Jun-2024 at 10:52 AM.
Last edited by CosmosUnivers on 22-Jun-2024 at 10:49 AM.
Last edited by CosmosUnivers on 22-Jun-2024 at 10:48 AM.

@CosmosUnivers

Quote:

CosmosUnivers wrote: Commodore had a success plan, they sold millions computers. They found the recip. They created a real market. For me, they failed because too many softwares and hardwares mistakes...

They did get the Amiga by accident and did get it to market, but failed to sell in sufficient numbers or to get anything beyond basic SW support.

It was so bad that they had to stop making them and it was only years later that someone came up with a cost reduced Amiga that could be sold as an C64 replacement.
That did work and no real progress on the HW was made for the next 5 years.

So yeah "success plan" indeed.

_________________
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- blame Canada

@NutsAboutAmiga

Dead for dead why choose PPC emulation?

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@pixie

Not saying its a good idea, but it’s closer to modern hardware, so it has some advantages.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Jun-2024 at 08:29 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

the second problem is “work together� well the community is not good at that, for obvious reasons.

I see only one common problem… HUGE egos.

Quote:

Cosmos wrote: i cannot explain more in public, because they will steal part(s) of my ideas (for example, they steal my idea of a new Kickstart).

QED.

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@CosmosUnivers

Quote:

CosmosUnivers wrote: Commodore had a success plan, they sold millions computers. They found the recip....

It's not that simple, C= had a huge success with PET one of the first PCs on the market.

Tramiel had the idea of selling more by making it cheaper but the C64 was not on the same level like a PC (Apple2) and their top level machines weren't to.

By accident they got the Amiga and somehow repeated the same mistake, sold a lot with little profit but where unable to compete on the top market, the big desktop machines where to expensive or to under powered (depends on how you look at it) and finally users replaced them with machines that weren't.

Maybe a AGA machine (made right) sold in 1990, or single motherboards like in the PC industry, would have helped them, maybe a consoles that was payed by copyright protected games on CD, maybe it was all to late because C= didn't really had a plan where to go, they had tactic but not strategy.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: the second problem is “work together� well the community is not good at that, for obvious reasons.

True

Henry Ford once told:
"If I had asked the customers what they wanted, they would have asked for bigger horses."

If C= would have asked me (as A500 user) what I wanted, I would have asked for a Amiga compatible Desktop with 256 color graphic and at least 640x480 flicker free hires mode and a faster CPU for a low price.

I would have got a A1200 in a big box, maybe with the possibility for cheaper 3.5" HD, maybe it would had a ZII slot but it would not have been enough to solve the Amiga problem in general.

But if I look back, even good ideas went no where:
Acorn Archimedes was discontinued as a PC/HC.
Atari went no where with their Transputer workstation.
SinclairQL leaped, crashed and was discontinued.
Even Apples Macointosh was changed into a niche gadget that hardly resembles the revolutionary start.
And IBM-PC ? IBM lost it.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 23-Jun-2024 at 10:11 AM.