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Hammer 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 15-Jun-2024 9:12:10
#41 ]
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Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5540
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@bhabbott

Fast C2P did not exist, at least not for games, there were some DEMOS that run really nice, I always wondered why DEMO groups did not make games, back in 1994/95, fast Forword today, why the fu*k do we keep talking about this, the only way to get proper 3D game experience buying proper 3D graphics card. Software rendering looks ugly or its slow. You can’t compete with hardware T&L, hardware shaders, and all the other stuff, that the graphics cards provides.


Fixed function hardware T&L was short lived i.e. single DirectX7 generation. DX8's vertex shaders emulates T&L hardware. GeForce 256's T&L was a misdirection by NVIDIA that is enough to destroy 3DFX.

ATI R3XX didn't have additional T&L hardware but emulates them via standard shader on drivers level. ATI recommends do not use hardware T&L and minimise switches between T&L and vertex shaders.

NV2x has additional hardware for T&L, but it's mostly reuse vertex shaders.

Last edited by Hammer on 15-Jun-2024 at 09:13 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 15-Jun-2024 12:07:52
#42 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4478
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@A1200

Quote:

A1200 wrote:
@Karlos

70MHz? That poor chip. Unless it is getting some active cooling?


It's some custom accelerator board, nicknamed "the beast".

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Karlos 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 15-Jun-2024 12:26:18
#43 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4478
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@bhabbott

Fast C2P did not exist, at least not for games, there were some DEMOS that run really nice, I always wondered why DEMO groups did not make games, back in 1994/95, fast Forword today, why the fu*k do we keep talking about this, the only way to get proper 3D game experience buying proper 3D graphics card. Software rendering looks ugly or its slow. You can’t compete with hardware T&L, hardware shaders, and all the other stuff, that the graphics cards provides.


I don't mean to piddle on your parade, but "proper 3D graphics cards" haven't done any of that stuff for about 20 odd years by now. They don't even have SIMD operations for vectors, let alone T&L hardware. What they do have is a huge array of scalar processors, fast streaming access to memory and hardware to manage keeping them all fed with useful work that is broken into grids (called kernels) for mass concurrent execution. And they are much more interesting for it. Most of the "units" we think of in a conventional pipeline are just kernels executing dynamically on some fraction of that compute array, scaling as required.

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pixie 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 15-Jun-2024 12:27:29
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3207
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@Karlos

Quote:
It's some custom accelerator board, nicknamed "the beast".

I don't know how TerribleFire let slip that one, it surely had the better fit of all xD

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Karlos 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 15-Jun-2024 12:37:32
#45 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4478
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

Staying on topic for Akiko for a moment, the other issue with it is that it just doesn't work properly with anything other than 68020. On 030, you have the issue that the datacache gets in the way unless you either disable it, which isn't great for overall performance, or do questionable things like directly manipulate the CACR register to disable write allocation. I opted for the latter in my exploration because the workload I have doesn't stand a chance otherwise.

The datacache issue is solved by a proper MMU setup if you have a full 030, but the full MMU setup hits performance in other ways.

I still hold out a bit of hope that it might be possible to leverage Akiko on 030/50 with some clever hacks but it doesn't seem particularly likely.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 15-Jun-2024 12:41:09
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12855
From: Norway

@Hammer

Exactly when what talked about is even mostly outdated, its should pretty clear C2P, is useless when comes to anything 3D.

its bit like advocating for food stamps, instead of getting a proper salary.

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Karlos 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 15-Jun-2024 12:49:04
#47 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4478
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@NutsAboutAmiga

Chunky pixels, and by extension, decent C2P on planar systems, had uses far beyond 2.5D CPU rendered games like Doom. Almost all image formats other than ILBM are intended for it, so the ability to efficiently convert arrays of packed pixel data to bitplanes for display is useful for things like the picture datatype, video playback, paint programs etc.

Akiko's internal implementation was more than up to the basic job for accelerated systems, but it was massively gimped by the read/write/read back/write PIO implementation. Not only that, but the OS provided routines that use it if present, end up with additional temporary allocations and buffers that make it even slower.

It's a bit amusing to see the case being presented that it's better than software on 020+Fast. Which may be true, and maybe some of the non game usages above would benefit from that alao, but let's be honest, the sorts of games that need 256 colour C2P don't tend to be designed with 020 in mind, especially back then.

GRIND on unexpanded CD32 might be a ideal candidate though, as it only needs to write 4 bitplanes.

Last edited by Karlos on 15-Jun-2024 at 01:33 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 15-Jun-2024 at 12:50 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 15-Jun-2024 at 12:50 PM.

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Lou 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 15-Jun-2024 19:25:35
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4194
From: Rhode Island

@NutsAboutAmiga

Wing Commander CD32 did use C2P as did Gloom Deluxe and Alien Breed 3D.

Last edited by Lou on 15-Jun-2024 at 07:42 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 15-Jun-2024 21:21:12
#49 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4478
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Lou

I don't think AB3D did. It used a chunky copper screen with 12-bit pseudo RGB rendering.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 16-Jun-2024 2:16:13
#50 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 829
From: Unknown

@Karlos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kDM3S7gQTk

You see how DOOM run on Amiga with 68020 Akiko and FAST RAM.
Better than on 386SX. Better than on affordable PC 30 years ago.
Absolutely wonderfull.
It is best proof what may be done on 1200 if only 1200 has proper graphics.
if only 1200 has chunky pixels.

Last edited by ppcamiga1 on 16-Jun-2024 at 02:16 AM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 16-Jun-2024 2:20:09
#51 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 829
From: Unknown

I share this because it cleary show that Commodore bankrupt because AGA has not chunky pixels.
No reason to keep it.
important in Amiga is cpu other than pc. graphics may be changed to anything.

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Hammer 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 16-Jun-2024 6:02:31
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5540
From: Australia

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@Karlos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kDM3S7gQTk

You see how DOOM run on Amiga with 68020 Akiko and FAST RAM.
Better than on 386SX. Better than on affordable PC 30 years ago.
Absolutely wonderfull.
It is best proof what may be done on 1200 if only 1200 has proper graphics.
if only 1200 has chunky pixels.

68EC020-14 on 32-bit Fast RAM is like 386DX-16 with 32-bit system RAM.

386SX has gimped 16-bit system RAM i.e. it's 286 with 32-bit software compatibility.

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Hammer 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 16-Jun-2024 6:34:34
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5540
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Blame Jeff Porter's direction for "8 bitplanes with 16 million colors" (cite, Commodore The Final Years by Brian).

I rather trade a 16 million color palette for 8-bit packed pixels with the 16-bit or 18-bit color palette. 8 bitplanes is for 2D and 8-bit packed pixels is for 2.5D/3D games.

Early 1990s SVGA card's 16 million color palette is optional.

As a "Kodak" photo viewer, AGA's 262,144 color display via HAM8 with 16.7 million color palette looks good on paper i.e. "mooooore colors".

C2P issue would be less if the optimized C2P is published in a timely fashion like Mode X's Dr. Dobb's Journal 1991.

https://archive.gamedev.net/archive/reference/articles/article373.html
Dr. Dobb's Journal July 1991 v16 n7 p133(7)
Mode X: 256-color VGA magic by Michael Abrash.
Quote:

Although some developers have taken advantage of mode X, its use is certainly
not widespread, being entirely undocumented; only an experienced VGA
programmer would have the slightest inkling that it exists, and figuring out
how to make it perform beyond the write pixel/read pixel level is no mean
feat. I've never seen anything in print about it, and, in fact, the only
articles I've seen about any of the undocumented 256-color modes were my own
articles about the 320 x 200, 320 x 400, and 360 x 480 256-color modes in
Programmer's Journal (January and September, 1989). (However, John Bridges
has put code for a number of undocumented 256-color resolutions into the
public domain, and I'd like to acknowledge the influence of his code on the
mode set routine presented in this article.)

Given the tremendous advantages of 320 x 240 over the documented mode 13h,
I'd very much like to get it into the hands of as many developers as
possible,
so I'm going to spend the next few columns exploring this odd but
worthy mode. I'll provide mode set code, delineate the bitmap organization,
and show how the basix write pixel and read pixel operations work. Then I'll
move on to the magic stuff: rectangle fills, screen clears, scrolls, image
copies, pixel inversion, and, yes, polygon fills (just a different driver),
all blurry fast; hardware raster ops; and page flipping. In the end, I'll
build a working animation program that showns many of the features of mode X
in action.


Michael Abrash shared his R&D efforts with the public and other PC game developers exploited them and aided in the wave of PC 3D games. Abrash's actions benefited the entire gaming PC platform.

I'm a C++/Delphi programmer for the Windows platform, but I'm just a bystander when it comes to Amiga C++ development. I installed bebbo amiga gcc and I'm looking around.

Last edited by Hammer on 16-Jun-2024 at 07:23 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 16-Jun-2024 at 07:15 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 16-Jun-2024 at 07:02 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 16-Jun-2024 at 06:55 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 16-Jun-2024 9:33:10
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4478
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@ppcamiga1

Your thesis about the lack of chunky pixels being the reason the Amiga died misses a few observations:

Acorn machines had chunky pixels, faster CPUs (RISC too, your favourite) and more hardware sound channels, in the same time frame than contemporary Amiga machines.

The Atari Falcon had 8-bit chunky pixels, a 15-bit chunky high colour mode, a DSP that could render into it, and a 68030. It was often criticised for having a 16 bit system bus, but it could move data around faster than the A1200 could on its 32-bit one since it ran it at 32 MHz compared to 14MHz on the A1200. It also had 16-bit Audio. It was in many ways a far better machine than the A1200. It still folded.

The Sharp X68000, the arcade cabinet in a box, had chunky pixels... You see where this is going.

Chunky pixels didn't save any of them. What on earth makes you think it would have saved the Amiga? Especially given that chunky pixels were an option for bibgox Amiga machines even then.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 16-Jun-2024 16:21:13
#55 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 829
From: Unknown

@Karlos

Commodore bankrupt because AGA has hot chunky pixel.
No chunky pixel no DOOM and no other good games.
On Amiga with 68020 Akiko and FAST RAM DOOM runs better than on affordable pc 30 years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kDM3S7gQTk
I watch this again and I'm delighted all the time. It is wonderfull.

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Karlos 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 16-Jun-2024 20:04:44
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4478
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@ppcamiga1

Nope. I listed 3 other platforms that had chunky pixels that also folded. I don't disagree for a moment with you that chunky pixels would have been very useful for AGA and yeah, maybe we'd even have had a contemporary Doom port (that still would habe needed fast memory), but it was never going to be enough to save it.

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Hammer 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 17-Jun-2024 3:48:04
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5540
From: Australia

@Karlos

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Falcon
Bitplane modes of 2, 4, 16 or 256 colors (1, 2, 4 or 8 bit)
Chunky 16-bit color mode

Atari Falcon doesn't seem to have 8-bit chunky pixels.

68030 MUL and DIV are missing native byte (8-bit) size. https://oldwww.nvg.ntnu.no/amiga/MC680x0_Sections/68030it.HTML

https://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=406415#p406415
"Atari dropped a clanger not including a chunky 8-bit mode in the VIDEL".

Atari Falcon is missing the chunky 8-bit mode in the VIDEL.

Last edited by Hammer on 17-Jun-2024 at 04:08 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 17-Jun-2024 at 04:06 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 17-Jun-2024 at 03:58 AM.

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bhabbott 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 17-Jun-2024 5:17:33
#58 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 381
From: Aotearoa

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:

Commodore bankrupt because AGA has hot chunky pixel.
No chunky pixel no DOOM

Doom was released in December 1993. The earliest possible date for an Amiga port would be be mid 1994, by which time Commodore was already bankrupt. Conclusion - the reason wasn't 'not chunky pixel'.

But,

PC compatible, good. Other not compatible, bad. Amiga not compatible, Commodore go bankrupt.

Quote:
and no other good games.

The Amiga had plenty of good games.

But,

Amiga not run PC games, Amiga bad. Commodore go bankrupt.

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Hammer 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 17-Jun-2024 8:06:09
#59 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5540
From: Australia

@bhabbott
Quote:

Doom was released in December 1993. The earliest possible date for an Amiga port would be be mid 1994, by which time Commodore was already bankrupt. Conclusion - the reason wasn't 'not chunky pixel'.

Doom was hyped before its December 1993 release. PC game magazines were posting Doom screenshots around May 1993.

PC has other texture-mapped 3D games being previewed by PC game magazines. Amiga Format wasn't the only propaganda platform magazine.

Real gamers in 1992-1994 would have lived through the hype and propaganda platform magazines.

Quote:
PC compatible, good. Other not compatible, bad. Amiga not compatible, Commodore go bankrupt.


Wrong.

SNES is not a PC-compatible. SNES has 256 colors and chunky pixels

Mac big-endian is not PC-compatible. Mac has 256 colors and chunky pixels.

Bill Sydnes' A300 and A1000Jr do not have 256 colors chunky pixels.

Amiga AGA optimized C2P didn't have Michael Abrash's published VGA optimization guide and advocacy from the 1991 to 1993 date range.

Last edited by Hammer on 17-Jun-2024 at 09:10 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 17-Jun-2024 at 09:06 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 17-Jun-2024 at 08:23 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 17-Jun-2024 9:16:23
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5540
From: Australia

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@Karlos

Commodore bankrupt because AGA has hot chunky pixel.
No chunky pixel no DOOM and no other good games.
On Amiga with 68020 Akiko and FAST RAM DOOM runs better than on affordable pc 30 years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kDM3S7gQTk
I watch this again and I'm delighted all the time. It is wonderfull.



I'm looking for Samuel Devulder's Quake source code so I can combine its HAM6 render with the DoomAttack source code. A500's HAM6 mode needs some love.


Last edited by Hammer on 17-Jun-2024 at 09:32 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 17-Jun-2024 at 09:18 AM.

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