@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: @cdimauro, Correct. And it was quite inferior to the VGA, which allowed 16 colours at 640x480 (without interlace, of course). 640x480p = progressive. 640x400i or 640x512i = interlace.

I already knew it, thanks.
Quote:

Quote: @cdimauro, In fact, if it requires an ECS or AGA, then it can NOT be done on OCS... It can be done with a specific 7.1 Mhz 68000. The Copper reduces the CPU load. Changing the 7.1 Mhz 68000 causes this feature to break. The Copper is cheaper than including an extra 7.1 Mhz CPU. 56 kHz audio Paula can be done by CPU on OCS Amigas, but Agnus DMA reduces the CPU load. Agnus DMA is cheaper than including an extra 7.1 Mhz CPU. 1989 released A500 Rev6A has ECS Agnus with OCS Denise and this Amiga config is the majority.

Irrelevant / padding.

As I've already stated, the mentioned technique needs at least the ECS chipset, so it can NOT be applied to the OCS chipset. Hence -> no 800x300 or 800x600 resolution was possible on such machines.
Quote:

Quote: @cdimauro, It was just on paper, as an answer to Apple's Mac II and IBM's VGA: it had to be discussed AND then implemented, taking some years. Rubin's "go ahead" was in Sep 1989. 1st AA prototype arrived in Dec 1990. AA was booting AmigaOS in Feb 1991. Listed stable AA features in March 1991. AA Gayle and Budgie are missing which are part of (anti-GVP) PCMCIA and IDE mandates.

Which prove my statement...

DoomAttack is a little funny, it doesn't support OCS/ECS like ADoom does with EHB modes, but it can be told to open in a window on public screen on OCS/ECS, and that works ... sources are available, full screen EHB mode DoomAttack would be cool



(a slight bug in the window mode, the picture is a few pixels shifted to the left)

Last edited by kolla on 04-Sep-2024 at 11:36 PM.

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@kolla

SAM's Quake port has HAM6 support, OCS/ECS Amiga with a powerful 68K would able to run Quake on 1985 era display tech.

Doom with HAM6 would be interesting and it wouldn't require FPU.

Last edited by Hammer on 06-Sep-2024 at 05:11 AM.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

As I've already stated, the mentioned technique needs at least the ECS chipset,

As I've already stated, it's either cycle timed 7.1 Mhz 68000 or ECS Copper. CPU accelerators would break 68000's 7.1 Mhz cycle timed-based feature.

Quote:

so it can NOT be applied to the OCS chipset. Hence -> no 800x300 or 800x600 resolution was possible on such machines.

1989 released A500 Rev6A has ECS Agnus A with OCS Denise. A500 Rev6A is the Amiga model majority which covered the majority of Amiga's 1990 and 1991 booming sale years.

A500 Rev 3 (1987) and Rev 5 (1988) were short-lived A500 revisions.

My A500 Rev6A is with Starter Kit 1989 version 1's Super Ski, Hole-in-One Mini-Golf, Crazy Cars, Kind Words 2,0 and Fusion Paint. https://amiga.abime.net/games/view/starter-kit

ECS Agnus A's ECS Copper can access odd and even cycles which is a 2X improvement over OCS Copper.

A500 majority has at least ECS Agnus A.

As per test program in the cited discord channel, the standard A500 Rev6A with ECS Agnus and OCS Denise can display 800x300p/800x600i PAL.

Last edited by Hammer on 05-Sep-2024 at 05:21 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 05-Sep-2024 at 05:19 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 05-Sep-2024 at 05:09 AM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: As I've already stated, the mentioned technique needs at least the ECS chipset, As I've already stated, tit's either cycle timed 7.1 Mhz 68000 or ECS Copper. CPU accelerators would break 68000's 7.1 Mhz cycle timed-based feature. Quote: so it can NOT be applied to the OCS chipset. Hence -> no 800x300 or 800x600 resolution was possible on such machines. 1989 released A500 Rev6A has ECS Agnus A with OCS Denise. A500 Rev6A is the Amiga model majority which covered the majority of Amiga's 1990 and 1991 booming sale years. A500 Rev 3 (1987) and Rev 5 (1988) were short-lived A500 revisions. My A500 Rev6A is with Starter Kit 1989 version 1's Super Ski, Hole-in-One Mini-Golf, Crazy Cars, Kind Words 2,0 and Fusion Paint. https://amiga.abime.net/games/view/starter-kit

You still don't get it, eh?

The Copper cannot write to the VPOSW register, unless it's an ECS version.
Quote:

ECS Agnus A's ECS Copper can access odd and even cycles which is a 2X improvement over OCS Copper.

That's completely false. You've to read the Amiga Hardware manual once in your life.

BTW, that would have been a BIG change which would have completely broken the backward-compatibility with the existing software (games, specifically).
Quote:

A500 majority has at least ECS Agnus A. Standard A500 Rev6A with ECS Agnus and OCS Denise can display 800x300p/800x600i PAL.

But what you've reported is about OCS. O-C-S.

@bhabbott

Quote:

At the time (1987) Word Perfect was the most popular PC word processor. Then they tried to make a Windows version and failed. 'Professional' PC users swore that DOS was better, and at that time they were right (Windows 2.0 was released in December 1987). Amiga Word Perfect wasn't a great success on the Amiga because most of us didn't buy an Amiga to do word processing! Furthermore we already had others (Scribble!, Pro Write etc.) that did the job.

WordPerfect 5.1 for Windows was released in 1991 which is too late.

Released in 1990, WordPerfect 5.0 for OS/2 is a low effort text-based application, not a GUI Presentation Manager application, and operates just like the DOS version.

For GUI word processing, MS WinWord and MS MacWord had a head start and created a sizeable beachhead.

Cited https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_share_of_personal_computer_vendors

For GUI platform market share,

1988:
Microsoft reached 1,000,000 Windows 2.x platform. Not including pirated Windows 2.x copies.
Commodore reached 1,000,000 Amiga platform.
Apple reached 2,402,000 Macintosh platform.


1989:
Microsoft reached about 2,000,000 Windows 2.x platform. Not including pirated Windows 2.x copies.
Commodore reached 1,600,000 Amiga platform.
Apple reached 3,502,000 Macintosh platform.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/shows/history/history-of-microsoft-1989
"Microsoft Mouse sales surpass two million units, twice the number sold less than one year ago. It took Microsoft five years to ship the first million units, but it has taken only one year to ship the second million."

Microsoft's mouse sales could be used for sold and pirated Windows 2.x installs i.e. 3 million.


1990:
Microsoft Windows 3.0 sales reached 4 million. https://techland.time.com/2013/05/07/a-brief-history-of-windows-sales-figures-1985-present/
Commodore reached 2,350,000 Amiga platform.
Apple reached 4,802,000 Macintosh platform.


1991:
Microsoft Windows 3.0 sales reached near 10 million. PC's annual sale is 14,399,000 units.
Commodore reached 3,385,000 Amiga platform.
Apple reached 6,902,000 Macintosh platform.

Pirated Windows 2.x and 3.x copies are not factored in. Bill Gates allowed pirated Windows to gain market share.


Word Perfect 5.1 for Windows's 1991 release started from ground zero vs the new GUI WinWord/MacWorld establishment.


Amiga's word processing market is limited by AmigaOS platform installs and lower stable resolution for business applications.

ProWrite was available for Atari ST (TOS has 2 million install base) and Amiga platforms.

When compared to MacWord, ProWrite 1.11 (1987) was behind with spell checker and thesaurus. ProWrite 2.0 was released in 1988 with a spell checker.

MS's MacExcel and MacWord linked its success with Apple Mac's DTP/PostScript/Laser Writer success.

Quote:

Sony PlayStation had a chaotic development history. The executives didn't want it, and why would they? Sony wasn't in that business. They did make CD drives though, and had contracted to make one for Nintendo. But the deal fell through and the engineers didn't want that effort going to waste. that's how Sony 'fell into' the games console market.

The important factor for Play Station project is Ken Kutaragi had the support from Sony CEO, Norio Ohga. Other lesser ranked executives were overridden by Norio Ohga.

Last edited by Hammer on 05-Sep-2024 at 07:06 AM.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

@cdimauro, You still don't get it, eh? The Copper cannot write to the VPOSW register, unless it's an ECS version.

Wrong narrative.

I'm aware that OCS Copper can't write to VPOSW, but a specific cycle-timed 7.1 Mhz 68000 can write to VPOSW.

With a CPU upgrade e.g. 68EC020 @ 14 Mhz or PiStorm, the specific cycle-timed writes to VPOSW will need to change. Alternative timer writes would be needed.

Since A500 Rev6A's ECS Agnus A with OCS Denise is the majority Amiga variant, the OCS Copper issue wouldn't matter.

My point with 7.1 Mhz 68000 driven writes to VPOSW example shows OCS 800x300p PAL timing potential and shows the evolutionary design fixes from OCS to ECS. One of the main reasons for the 68000 CPU selection is 68K's CPU roadmap upgrades.

For many cases, Amiga's near-frozen Copper design is an important factor for isolating the Amiga chipset from potential CPU upgrades.

ECS Denise/ECS Agnus has programmed mode registers that allow CPU upgrade compatibility.

Quote:

@cdimauro, That's completely false. You've to read the Amiga Hardware manual once in your life.

You've forgotten the gotchas with AmigaOS 3.1's WriteChunkyPixels API. Look in the mirror. hypocrite.

Again,
Quote:

It probably isn't that useful because it needs 7MHz 68000. This trick requires CPU timed VPOSW writes, copper isn't good enough because it can only do even cycle writes (and only ECS/AGA copper can do VPOSW writes)

Last edited by Hammer on 06-Sep-2024 at 05:08 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 06-Sep-2024 at 05:07 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 06-Sep-2024 at 04:38 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 06-Sep-2024 at 04:32 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 06-Sep-2024 at 04:31 AM.

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@Hammer

You're so sure of what you say that you've completely edited and changed what you've written. Unfortunately for you, there are the quotes on your previous comments saved on my previous replies, and I'll report them to show how much ignorant are you when you talk of things that you've no clue at all.

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: @cdimauro, You still don't get it, eh? The Copper cannot write to the VPOSW register, unless it's an ECS version. Wrong narrative. I'm aware that OCS Copper can't write to VPOSW, but a specific cycle-timed 7.1 Mhz 68000 can write to VPOSW.

That wasn't my point: talking about the ECS/AGA chipset is totally irrelevant, since the chipset doesn't matter at all. YOU've talked explicitly about a technique to be applied to the OCS. O-C-S.
Quote:

With a CPU upgrade e.g. 68EC020 @ 14 Mhz or PiStorm, the specific cycle-timed writes to VPOSW will need to change. Alternative timer writes would be needed. Since A500 Rev6A's ECS Agnus A with OCS Denise is the majority Amiga variant, the OCS Copper issue wouldn't matter. My point with 7.1 Mhz 68000 driven writes to VPOSW example shows OCS 800x300p PAL timing potential and shows the evolutionary design fixes from OCS to ECS. One of the main reasons for the 68000 CPU selection is 68K's CPU roadmap upgrades. For many cases, Amiga's near-frozen Copper design is an important factor for isolating the Amiga chipset from potential CPU upgrades. ECS Denise/ECS Agnus has programmed mode registers that allow CPU upgrades.

Again, irrelevant on this part of the discussion. Plus, see at the bottom.
Quote:

Quote: @cdimauro, That's completely false. You've to read the Amiga Hardware manual once in your life. You've forgotten the gotchas with AmigaOS 3.1's WriteChunkyPixels API. Look in the mirror. hypocrite.

Again, a completely irrelevant thing AND a Red Herring: you started talking of something different to (desperately, because I will never allow it) distract from the main topic.
Quote:

Again, Quote: It probably isn't that useful because it needs 7MHz 68000. This trick requires CPU timed VPOSW writes, copper isn't good enough because it can only do even cycle writes (and only ECS/AGA copper can do VPOSW writes)

And here is where you've completely changed what you've written before, trying to fix your BIG mistake.

Now I report what YOU have written before, which contradicts what you've fixed here:

ECS Agnus A's ECS Copper can access odd and even cycles which is a 2X improvement over OCS Copper.

As I've already said, that's completely false, because you've NOT read the Amiga Hardware manual not even once in your life.

In fact, Copper NEVER changed in ALL Amiga chipset, and it can only work on even cycles! There was no DOUBLING of accesses for the Copper on ECS/AGA!

IGNORANT!

@bhabbott

Quote:

But even if the 65C816 was available in time, it still would not have been a good choice for the Amiga. It wasn't long before Amiga fans were seeking more processing power for ray-traced graphics and other applications. The first turbo card for the A1000 with 14.3 MHz 68020, 68881 FPU and 32 bit FastRAM was announced in 1986, setting the stage for further upgrades. By 1992 a 35 MHz 68040 accelerator card was available for any Amiga with a socketed 68000. The 68060 arrived soon after, with over 50 times the integer performance and 600 times the floating point performance of a 7MHz 68000. These developments would not have been possible with the 65C816, which was the end of the line for 6502.

In 1992, PPS released their Progressive 500/040 which includes 68040 @ 28 to 35 Mhz upgrade for A500. http://amiga.resource.cx/adcoll/preview/ProgressivePeripherals_1992-06.jpg

PPS claims A500 + PPS 500/040 to be the world's lowest-priced high-performance 3-D modeling and rendering workstation. A500 ECS+PPS 500/040 is functionally similar to A3000T/040.

Vampire AC68080 wasn't the 1st big fat 68K accelerator for A500.

Human bus error's A600 EOL'ed the A500 market.

Dave Haynie wanted 68EC040-25 based Amiga to be mass produced i.e. 486SX-33 power for 386DX-33/386DX-40 price, since there's a "bang per buck" value advantage.

A500 + PPS 500/040 is just missing 256 color display capability.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

Again, a completely irrelevant thing AND a Red Herring: you started talking of something different to (desperately, because I will never allow it) distract from the main topic.

You're a fucking hypocrite.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

And here is where you've completely changed what you've written before, trying to fix your BIG mistake. Now I report what YOU have written before, which contradicts what you've fixed here: ECS Agnus A's ECS Copper can access odd and even cycles which is a 2X improvement over OCS Copper. As I've already said, that's completely false, because you've NOT read the Amiga Hardware manual not even once in your life. In fact, Copper NEVER changed in ALL Amiga chipset, and it can only work on even cycles! There was no DOUBLING of accesses for the Copper on ECS/AGA!

In fact, ECS Copper can write to VPOSW hence there were changes from OCS Copper.

Last edited by Hammer on 06-Sep-2024 at 05:35 AM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Again, a completely irrelevant thing AND a Red Herring: you started talking of something different to (desperately, because I will never allow it) distract from the main topic. You're a fucking hypocrite.

Ohhh, and here you revel your nature: you can't reply and start insulting.

That's only thing that you can do, since know nothing about the things that you talk about.

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: And here is where you've completely changed what you've written before, trying to fix your BIG mistake. Now I report what YOU have written before, which contradicts what you've fixed here: ECS Agnus A's ECS Copper can access odd and even cycles which is a 2X improvement over OCS Copper. As I've already said, that's completely false, because you've NOT read the Amiga Hardware manual not even once in your life. In fact, Copper NEVER changed in ALL Amiga chipset, and it can only work on even cycles! There was no DOUBLING of accesses for the Copper on ECS/AGA! In fact, ECS Copper can write to VPOSW hence there were changes from OCS Copper.

Again, Red Herring: YOU have stated the ECS/AGA had a Copper with steroids, able to access both even AND odd cycles.

IGNORANT!

You never opened the Amiga Hardware manual in your life!

You know nothing about how the Amiga worked, yet pretend to talk about it.

Go study first, ignorant!

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@Hammer

Quote:

SAM's Quake port has HAM6 support,

Who/what is SAM? I looked around, but could only find ports that minimum require AGA… except on youtube, https://youtu.be/btoU_CQSg7A

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@kolla

This might be it
https://youtu.be/btoU_CQSg7A

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@pixie

Kind looks like VHS quality, blurry, horizontal lines, flickering, but that’s kind a expected for HAM, pretty useless.

Even if CHIP ram was faster, these issues won’t go away. Because of how HAM works.
The only thing that can help is higher resolution.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Sep-2024 at 09:30 AM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

HAM 8 would be different, less pronounced

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I've come to realise that ppcamiga1 actually does have a purpose after all. Without his moronic brand of incessant trolling triggering these massive threads, the forum would be almost dead.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

I'm not convinced what you see in the video is the limitations of HAM versus filming the display with a camera (probably a phone camera) at a non perfectly perpendicular angle at the optimum distance and ambient lighting conditions, then the video compression artefacts on top of that.

You need a direct RGB capture really. I do expect to see some artefacts, of course, I just don't know that the video isn't making it look worse than it is.

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@pixie

Yes, didn’t you notice I posted that exact URL? :)
But does it say anywhere what Quake port this is?

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