@matthey

Quote:

I guess they didn't have the RISC-V research back them to tell them that fat PPC needs 4 times the instruction cache to provide the same performance as a 68k instruction cache. The PPC 603 with double the instruction cache of the 68040 was not enough. The quick upgrade to the PPC 603e has 4 times the instruction cache just as the RISC-V research predicts would be necessary due to the code density difference. The RISC small core advantage was already greatly reduced by the transistors used for caches. Year | CPU | Pipeline | Caches | Transistors 1990 68040 6-stage 4kiB_I+D 1,200,000 1994 68060 8-stage 8kiB_I+D 2,500,000 1994 PPC603 4-stage 8kiB_I+D 1,600,000 1995 PPC603e 4-stage 16kiB_I+D 2,600,000 More pipeline stages requires more transistors too but provides more performance and higher clock speeds, which the shallow pipeline PPC 603(e) lacked.

PowerPC's direction is heavenly influenced by Motorola's major desktop CPU customer i.e. Apple. It was non-Steve Jobs Apple's loyalty to Motorola that brought them into the PowerPC camp.

Commodore is to cheapskate as a Motorola's 68040/68LC040 bulk customer i.e. Commodore's 68040/68LC040 sales are numbered in a few thousand.


Quote:

It makes sense that a 16 bit CPU with 16 bit ALU and 16 bit registers would have an 8x8=16 bit multiply. This is what early 16 bit 808x/x86 CPUs had and it makes sense to keep for compatibility. The 68000 was 16 bit but had 32 bit registers so the ISA designers opted for 16x16=32 bit instead which was a good decision. Early 8 bit 6502 family CPUs did not have hardware MUL or DIV and did not have barrel shifters either of which may have used more transistors than the whole CPU.

65xx CPU has double rate processing i.e. leading and failing edge.

If you normalize 65xx CPU's 3.5 Mhz (e.g. 65C816) double rate processing as a single data rate processing, it's effectively 7 Mhz.

65xx CPU has extra features that the 68000 didn't have.

AMD hired C65's CPU designer for the K7 project due to DDR (double rate data) design requirements.

Motorola was late to DDR.

Quote:

Chunky is down the list a ways for increasing the 3D performance of an Amiga 1200. 1. fast memory (also adds more memory) 2. higher performance CPU 3. more graphics memory bandwidth 4. chunky graphics An Amiga 1200 with 68060 and fast memory can play Quake on AGA better than a stock Amiga 1200 can play Doom on AGA. A stock CD32 with chunky has trouble playing Doom and no chance at Quake. Mr. Delusional will tell us 2+2=5 though.

I'm not delusional about the uncompetitive price and late 68060.

I purchased 68060 Rev 1 to investigate "68060". Warp126's 68060 Rev 6 @ 100 Mhz, L2 cache with RTG has Pentium 75 results.

$150 68EC060 is not feasible for "cheapo RISC" game consoles with DMA engines. https://techmonitor.ai/technology/motorola_plans_to_sample_the_68060_next_quarter
Date: April 19, 1994. $150 for 68EC060, $190 for 68LC060.

Last edited by Hammer on 20-Jun-2024 at 09:20 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 20-Jun-2024 at 09:14 AM.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@Hammer

Quote:

Quote: Chunky is down the list a ways for increasing the 3D performance of an Amiga 1200. 1. fast memory (also adds more memory) 2. higher performance CPU 3. more graphics memory bandwidth 4. chunky graphics An Amiga 1200 with 68060 and fast memory can play Quake on AGA better than a stock Amiga 1200 can play Doom on AGA. A stock CD32 with chunky has trouble playing Doom and no chance at Quake. Mr. Delusional will tell us 2+2=5 though. I'm not delusional about the uncompetitive price and late 68060. I purchased 68060 Rev 1 to investigate "68060". Warp126's 68060 Rev 6 @ 100 Mhz, L2 cache with RTG has Pentium 75 results.

Don't flatter yourself too much Hammer, Mr. Delusional here isn't supposed to be you.

There can be only one worthy enough for that title, and it's well known who that person is!

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@Hammer

I am perfectly aware of what actual Quake 3 needs, in total, to run. In case you didn't know, I worked on hardware 3D drivers for the absolutely terrible 3D chips the Amiga had access to. Quake 3 is one of the test applications I used. It's why I spent so much time optimising a single vertex array function call because quake 3 engine used it almost exclusively.

And once again, I ask you to consider *not quake 3* but Doom. A vastly simpler proposition for the hardware under evaluation.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

For DOOM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kDM3S7gQTk chunky pixel is enough.
68020 FAST RAM nad chunky pixel is enough to play DOOM on Amiga.
Just better graphics and 1200 is nice computer.

Last edited by ppcamiga1 on 20-Jun-2024 at 03:57 PM.

Hammer Quote:

PowerPC's direction is heavenly influenced by Motorola's major desktop CPU customer i.e. Apple. It was non-Steve Jobs Apple's loyalty to Motorola that brought them into the PowerPC camp. Commodore is to cheapskate as a Motorola's 68040/68LC040 bulk customer i.e. Commodore's 68040/68LC040 sales are numbered in a few thousand.

Apple wanted the insurance of multiple chip developers and suppliers that did not exist for high end 68k CPUs. Also, IBM was thought to be one of the top CPU developers but their reputation was later reduced by the PPC 970 (G5), Cell and Xenon designs. Rumors exist that IBM had wanted to become a 2nd source 68000 and perhaps later 68008 chip supplier which Motorola refused before IBM chose the 8088 for their PC.

Hammer Quote:

I'm not delusional about the uncompetitive price and late 68060. I purchased 68060 Rev 1 to investigate "68060". Warp126's 68060 Rev 6 @ 100 Mhz, L2 cache with RTG has Pentium 75 results. $150 68EC060 is not feasible for "cheapo RISC" game consoles with DMA engines. https://techmonitor.ai/technology/motorola_plans_to_sample_the_68060_next_quarter Date: April 19, 1994. $150 for 68EC060, $190 for 68LC060.

Chip costs include up front one time costs for layout, stencils, etc. Production costs are simply based on the process used, die size and number of defective chips which increase with a larger die size. A rough comparison of chip production cost independent of process used can come from comparing the number of transistors as I often do. The actual chip price is highly dependent on chip sales. Motorola liked to front load their costs, including development costs, into the chip price of new chips to quickly recover their costs.

The 68060 had a cost advantage do to using fewer transistors over the PPC 601 and PPC 603e but the price was lower for these PPC CPUs due to more chips sold providing economies of scale. Motorola marketed (promoted) the PPC and anti-marketed (demoted) the 68060 to EOL embedded use which was detrimental to 68060 economies of scale. The 8 stage pipeline 68060 clock speed rating was limited to 50MHz to make it less competitive with the 4 stage PPC 601 and PPC 603 which could not easily be clocked up due to shallow pipelines which also reduced 68060 economies of scale. Despite all these handicaps, the 68060 was a financial success and remained in production for over a decade because it had very good performance efficiency (DMIPS/MHz) and good power efficiency (DMIPS/W) even though Motorola's anti-marketing and clock rating freeze reduced the price efficiency (DMIPS/$).

The 68060@100MHz has the integer performance of a Pentium@140MHz but the FPU performance of a Pentium@75MHz using an old version of GCC. VBCC shows nearly on par FPU performance is possible but the 68k integer backend is simplistic and is unlikely to be upgraded with emulation of the 68k becoming the Amiga LG standard. THEA500 Mini did nothing for Amiga development despite approaching mass production levels. Emulation is EOL Neverland where competitiveness and efficiency are ignored but hope and dreams remain.

https://hackaday.com/2022/12/20/a-love-letter-to-my-lost-amiga/ Quote:

We Made Amiga. They F****d It Up ... Carl Sassenrath says: December 21, 2022 at 9:12 pm Hi Jenny, you covered it quite well! Thanks. I also miss those Amiga days. What fun. What promise. The creative edge. We knew when we built Amiga that it would inspire. And, for a short span of computing history, it did. -Mr. Amiga Exec

Last edited by matthey on 20-Jun-2024 at 06:45 PM.

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

For DOOM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kDM3S7gQTk chunky pixel is enough. 68020 FAST RAM nad chunky pixel is enough to play DOOM on Amiga. Just better graphics and 1200 is nice computer.

How much 4mb add to the cost already... People would buy it in droves! Just look at Falcon

Last edited by pixie on 21-Jun-2024 at 05:41 AM.
Last edited by pixie on 20-Jun-2024 at 09:42 PM.

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

pixie Quote:

How much 4mb add to the cost already... People would buy it in droves! Just look at Falcon

Amiga users forget how high of specs and expensive PCs for the classes were. Let's ask Google.

What are the requirements to run 1993 Doom?

Provided that you have at least an NVIDIA GeForce 510 graphics card you can play the game. To play DOOM (1993) you will need a minimum CPU equivalent to an Intel Core 2 Duo E8400. The minimum memory requirement for DOOM (1993) is 4 GB of RAM installed in your computer.

Doh! Original requirements for 1993 Doom follow.

IBM or compatible 386 or better computer
4 Mb of ram
VGA graphics card
Hard disk drive (24Mb of free space required)

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/a4yi5t/original_doom_system_requirements_from_my_25_year/

Yes, I know Mb stands for Megabits instead of MB for MegaBytes which would let a lot more Amigas meet the minimum requirements but that is what the documentation states (see the pic at the link above). PC owners likely spent more upgrading their PCs to meet the minimum Doom spec than Amiga users spent on their whole Amiga for the masses. We understood value but CBM upper management did not, at least after Jack Tramiel left. For all his faults, he understood value.

https://www.commodore.ca/commodore-history/jack-tramiel-declares-war-on-commodore/ Quote:

To Tramiel it’s an undeniable fact that the best computer value will be the bestseller. �End-users are intelligent. They know what they want and they know what it’s worth,� was a point he made several times during the interview.

CBM stopped delivering value to the masses who bought the 68k Amiga. A-Eon stopped delivering value to not only the original Amiga masses but the niche Amiga classes too. Retro Games Limited showed it is still possible to deliver value to the masses even though the value comes from a nostalgic toy rather than the real 68k Amiga hardware so many Amiga users want.

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @Hammer I am perfectly aware of what actual Quake 3 needs, in total, to run. In case you didn't know, I worked on hardware 3D drivers for the absolutely terrible 3D chips the Amiga had access to. Quake 3 is one of the test applications I used. It's why I spent so much time optimising a single vertex array function call because quake 3 engine used it almost exclusively. And once again, I ask you to consider *not quake 3* but Doom. A vastly simpler proposition for the hardware under evaluation.

As per Lew Eggebrecht's interview from http://www.bambi-amiga.co.uk/amigahistory/leweggebrecht.html
Quote:

Does that mean that a AA+ machine will have a DSP? "We can't make that decision right now - it's something we'll have to look at but in that time frame, even in the low end, every machine is likely to have a DSP. It's a cost thing - although the AT&T chip itself is only $20 to $30 or so. AT&T has a number of lower cost options, as well, that are designed more specifically to go on the motherboard.

I have argued for $20 DSP3210 @ 50Mhz inclusion in https://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=86674

Y1994's $150 68EC060 @ 50 Mhz is not functional for the DMA'ed computers.

Y1994's $190 for 68LC060 blows the price for $599 USD retail cost A1200 like device.

It wouldn't be PS1, but it would close the math compute gap and offer a strong 25 MFLOPS FP32 alternative (via DSP3210 @ 50 Mhz).

For comparison, Rendition Verite v1000's MIPS-like RISC CPU has 1-clock 32x32 multiply, 1 clock approximate reciprocal instruction (hence 2 clock approximate integer divide), "bilinear load" instruction, and usual RISC instructions. The clock speed is 25 Mhz.

_________________
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@matthey

Quote:

Apple wanted the insurance of multiple chip developers and suppliers that did not exist for high end 68k CPUs. .

The "second source" insurance.

Quote:

Also, IBM was thought to be one of the top CPU developers but their reputation was later reduced by the PPC 970 (G5),

Note that both AMD K8 (using Motorola's copper process node) and IBM PPC 970 were beaten by Intel Core 2.

PPC 970 is not a bad CPU.

Quote:

Cell and Xenon designs.

PPE is a low-cost, high clock speed, vector bias CPU for game consoles.

Intel Core 2's SSSE3 has SIMD instructions to match up with CELL's SPE.

Quote:

Rumors exist that IBM had wanted to become a 2nd source 68000 and perhaps later 68008 chip supplier which Motorola refused before IBM chose the 8088 for their PC.

This is the "art of the deal" issue.


Quote:

Chip costs include up front one time costs for layout, stencils, etc. Production costs are simply based on the process used, die size and number of defective chips which increase with a larger die size. A rough comparison of chip production cost independent of process used can come from comparing the number of transistors as I often do. The actual chip price is highly dependent on chip sales. Motorola liked to front load their costs, including development costs, into the chip price of new chips to quickly recover their costs. The 68060 had a cost advantage do to using fewer transistors over the PPC 601 and PPC 603e but the price was lower for these PPC CPUs due to more chips sold providing economies of scale. Motorola marketed (promoted) the PPC and anti-marketed (demoted) the 68060 to EOL embedded use which was detrimental to 68060 economies of scale. The 8 stage pipeline 68060 clock speed rating was limited to 50MHz to make it less competitive with the 4 stage PPC 601 and PPC 603 which could not easily be clocked up due to shallow pipelines which also reduced 68060 economies of scale. Despite all these handicaps, the 68060 was a financial success and remained in production for over a decade because it had very good performance efficiency (DMIPS/MHz) and good power efficiency (DMIPS/W) even though Motorola's anti-marketing and clock rating freeze reduced the price efficiency (DMIPS/$).

You just ignored Amiga's demographics majority is not like Apple's Macs.

For 1992 to 1995, prove Amiga demographics majority were willing to spend PowerMac level prices at 1.2 million unit sales (during 1994).

Quote:

The 68060@100MHz has the integer performance of a Pentium@140MHz but the FPU performance of a Pentium@75MHz using an old version of GCC. VBCC shows nearly on par FPU performance is possible but the 68k integer backend is simplistic and is unlikely to be upgraded with emulation of the 68k becoming the Amiga LG standard.

That's a flawed argument when 68060 doesn't have a 64-bit bus to feed the CPU's two 32-bit integer units.

68060 can load 4 bytes (32-bit) per cycle from 8KB instruction cache. 68060's instruction cache link is 4 bytes less than 68040.

68040's instruction cache has 8 byte fetch per cycle with 4 KB storage size.
68060's instruction cache has 4 byte fetch per cycle with 8 KB storage size.
68060's 4-byte fetch from the L1 cache has less coverage for its instruction set. Two small 2-byte instructions are okay, but the larger instructions would require multiple cycles. Refer to SysInfo gimping 68060. One step forward, one step backward.

P5 Pentium has 32 bytes (256-bit) per cycle from an 8KB instruction cache with superior coverage for its instruction set.

AC68080 fixes this Motorola stupidity with a 16-byte (128-bit) fetch per cycle from the instruction cache.

-----------------
You're in dreamland with 68060 Rev 1 @ 100MHz without a timeline qualifier.

Real timeline facts:
For 1994,

68060 Rev 1 with 3.3V and 600 nm process node has a 50 to 60 Mhz clock speed range. My 68060-50 Rev 1 can do 62.5 Mhz without a system freeze.

Intel released their 2nd generation P54C with 3.3V and 600 nm process node. Pentium 75, 90, 100 are in Y1994.

------------
For 1995
Intel released Pentium P54CQS and P54CS (i.e. Pentium 120, 133) and Pentium Pro (P6, 150Mhz, 180Mhz, 200Mhz) on a 350 nm process node.

For 1996, more P54CS SKUs i.e. Pentium 150, 166, 200.


Quote:

THEA500 Mini did nothing for Amiga development despite approaching mass production levels. Emulation is EOL Neverland where competitiveness and efficiency are ignored but hope and dreams remain.

Hardware 68060 promoters had their chance and failed. You're in real dreamland.

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 07:07 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 07:01 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 06:59 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 06:36 AM.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: Original requirements for 1993 Doom follow. IBM or compatible 386 or better computer 4 Mb of ram VGA graphics card Hard disk drive (24Mb of free space required) https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/a4yi5t/original_doom_system_requirements_from_my_25_year/ Yes, I know Mb stands for Megabits instead of MB for MegaBytes which would let a lot more Amigas meet the minimum requirements but that is what the documentation states (see the pic at the link above).

This was a time when 'minimum system requirements' were becoming a joke. The recommended setup was a 486 with sound card. Carmack himself said a 486 was required to run Doom properly.

Quote:

PC owners likely spent more upgrading their PCs to meet the minimum Doom spec than Amiga users spent on their whole Amiga for the masses.

True - though 'upgrade' generally meant buying a whole new PC, which they would have to do again and again every few years.

Quote:

We understood value but CBM upper management did not, at least after Jack Tramiel left. For all his faults, he understood value.

Tramiel - the guy who knew nothing about computers but 'knew how to ship boxes'. He screwed the dealer network so badly that Commodore never fully recovered. Tramiel's idea of 'value' was the C16.

Quote:

CBM stopped delivering value to the masses who bought the 68k Amiga.

CBM was delivering value right up until it went bankrupt.

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @Lou Quote: Lou wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tDflgqJlTw Where are Doom's textures? Castle Master 3D on C64 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJvi1Blsna0

You asked for it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZzivzuDOls

A C64/128 with an REU can move memory 4x faster than an unexpanded machine...add an accelerator to the mix and I'd say it outperforms the Amiga version. :)

Last edited by Lou on 21-Jun-2024 at 01:37 PM.

@Lou

SuperCPU v2 has 65C816S @ 20 Mhz and 16 MB RAM.

Since 65C816S has double rate processing, double rate processing @ 20 Mhz is effectively single rate processing @ 40 Mhz.

Amiga AGA's ADoom has 256 colors like the PC DOS version and it's processing more colors.

A limited 16 color version is Dread's running Doom's 1st level port. Lower bit planes enables Amiga to reduce C2P cost.

68030's normal add and sub instructions can range from 2 cycles to 4 cycles.

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 02:28 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 02:16 PM.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@matthey

Quote:

PC owners likely spent more upgrading their PCs to meet the minimum Doom spec than Amiga users spent on their whole Amiga for the masses.

When Doom was released in December 1993, 486s are already in Intel's revenue and typical PC majority.

From https://www.intel.fr/content/dam/doc/report/history-1994-annual-report.pdf
Intel reported the following
1. In 1994's fourth quarter, Pentium unit sales accounted for 23 percent of Intel's desktop processor volume.
2. Millions of Pentiums were shipped.
3. During Q4 1993 and 1994, a typical PC purchase was a computer featuring the Intel 486 chip.
4. Net 1994 revenue reached $11.5 billion.
5. Net 1993 revenue reached $8.7 billion.
6. Growing demand and production for Intel 486 resulted in a sharp decline in sales for Intel 386 from 1992 to 1993.
7. Sales of the Intel 486 family comprised the majority of Intel's revenue during 1992, 1993, and 1994.
8. Intel reached its 6 to 7 million Pentiums shipped goal during 1994. This is only 23 percent unit volume.

From US Inflation Calculator https://www.minneapolisfed.org/about-us/monetary-policy/inflation-calculator.

A500's $699 in 1987 is $888.68 in 1993. 486SX-25 and 486SX-33 based PC in Q4 1993 was in the $1000 range.

For similar money, A1200's solution is 68030 @ 40 Mhz.

In 1993, there's a large gap between base line A1200's $379 and A4000/030@ 25 Mhz's $1599.


https://vintageapple.org/pcworld/pdf/PC_World_9306_June_1993.pdf
Gateway Party List, Page 72 of 314

4SX-33 with 486-SX 33Mhz, 4MB RAM, 170 MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video DRAM, 14-inch monitor for $1494,

4DX-33 with 486-DX 33Mhz, 8MB RAM, 212 MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video DRAM, 14-inch monitor for $1895,

Page 128 of 314
Polywell Poly 486-33V with 486SX-33, 4MB of RAM, SVGA 1MB VL-Bus, price: $1250


https://vintageapple.org/pcworld/pdf/PC_World_9308_August_1993.pdf
Gateway Party List, Page 62 of 324

4SX-33 with 486-SX 33Mhz, 4MB RAM, 212MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video DRAM, 14-inch monitor for $1495,

4DX-33 with 486-DX 33Mhz, 8MB RAM, 212 MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video DRAM, 14-inch monitor for $1795,


https://archive.org/details/amiga-world-1993-10/page/n7/mode/2up
Amigaworld, October 1993, Page 66 of 104
Amiga 4000/040 @ 25Mhz for $2299
Amiga 4000/030 @ 25Mhz for $1599


Page 82 of 104
M1230X's 68030 @ 50Mhz has $349
1942 Monitor has $389
A1200 with 85MB HDD has $624
A1200 with 130MB HDD has $724

The Commodore with 3rd party M1230X solution is beaten by the Gateway 2000's solution.

-------------------

https://archive.org/details/amiga-world-1993-11/page/n57/mode/2up
Amiga World Magazine (November 1993), page 58 of 100,
A1200 price $379
A3000 5MB, 105HD, price $899
A3000T/030, 5MB, 200MB HDD, price $1199
A3000T/040, 5MB, 200MB HDD, price $1599
Cost for 040 card = $400

The cost estimate for a 68040 card, $1599 - $1199, hence the cost for 040 card is about $400

A1200's $379 + 040 card's $400 = $779.

A1200 with 68LC040-25 with 4MB RAM accelerator could target $888.68. This is closer to Apple's Quadra 605's $999 with 68LC040-25.

Note that A4000/030's $1599 with A3640's $400 = $1,999 which is cheaper than A4000/040 @ 25Mhz for $2299.

A3000's $899 + CD32's $299 + A3640's $400 = $1,598. This is assuming A3000 has a partitioned Amiga graphics card that is replaced by CD32 AGA+C2P card. This will step on Commodore's DT486DX-25's price range.

For the Amiga, Commodore is not delivering "32-bit texture mapped 3D gaming value" between $400 and $2200 price range. Buy a Commodore 486DX PC instead.

Quadra 605 (68LC040-25, minus Apple graphics solution) with C= AGA+Akiko C2P for $999 USD, I would by it. A1200's 68LC040+AGA runs faster Doom when compared to actual Quadra 605's Doom.

The Amiga platform was wreaked by Commodore.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl-gYdkIXCk
A1200 with 68040-50 OC running Doom. 68LC040-28 is cheaper.

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 03:25 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 03:16 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 03:14 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 03:11 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 03:04 PM.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@all

That's a whole lot of blameshifting BS you got going on there.

@hotrod

Read
Commodore The Final Years by Brian Bagnall.
Commodore the Inside Story, The Untold Tale of a Computer Giant by David John Pleasance.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
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@bhabbott

Quote:

True - though 'upgrade' generally meant buying a whole new PC, which they would have to do again and again every few years.

In 1996, Pentium 150 + S3 Trio 64 UV PCI + Yamaha Sonata SR-S163 16-bit sound card equipped PC clone is cheaper than Phase 5's CyberStorm 060 @ 50Mhz with CyberGraphics 64 (S3 Trio 64U) upgrades.

With student budget, PC upgrades are triggered in line with the PlayStation game consoles generation.

The AM4 platform has more than 7 years of support and plays the latest PS5-era games with superior framerates. Ryzen 7 5800X3D for the AM4 platform is still potent for current-gen games and into mid-gen PS5 Pro upgrade.

AM4 platform was released during the last-gen Xbox One X's 2017 release.

PS1 = Intel Pentium era.
PS2 / Xbox = AMD K7 Socket A platform.
PS3 / Xbox 360 = Intel Core 2 LGA 775 platform.
PS4 / XB1= Intel Haswell LGA 1150 platform.
PS4 Pro / XOX = no need to upgrade Intel Haswell LGA 1150 platform.
PS5 / XSX = AM4 platform with at least Zen 2 half L3 budget version.
PS5 Pro = no need to upgrade AM4 platform.
PS6 = AM5 platform with Zen 6c budget versions.

PC's in-between game console upgrades are optional. Blender 3D type apps need upgrades.

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 04:17 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 04:11 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 03:36 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jun-2024 at 03:32 PM.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@Hammer

Quote:

CyberGraphics 64 (S3 Trio 64U) upgrades

That would be CyberVision 64.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@hotrod

yes some cases here don't accept that Commodore bankrupt because aga has not chunky pixels.
even if as everybody may se on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kDM3S7gQTk DOOM on Amiga with 68020 FAST RAM and Akiko run better than on affordable 386 30 years ago.

@ppcamiga1

Sowhat?

By the time you could get FastRAM on an CD32 and at that price you could just get a 486 anyways.

"Naked" A1200/CD32 was far to weak while expanded ones were expensive and far to rare to be a viable games market.

_________________
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- blame Canada

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @Lou SuperCPU v2 has 65C816S @ 20 Mhz and 16 MB RAM. Since 65C816S has double rate processing, double rate processing @ 20 Mhz is effectively single rate processing @ 40 Mhz. Amiga AGA's ADoom has 256 colors like the PC DOS version and it's processing more colors. A limited 16 color version is Dread's running Doom's 1st level port. Lower bit planes enables Amiga to reduce C2P cost. 68030's normal add and sub instructions can range from 2 cycles to 4 cycles.

The 65C816 was developed for Apple. Other than being able to address 24bit memory - the 65CE02 (20bit addressable memory) developed for the C65, is a better 8/16bit implementation with 25% IPC over the 65C02 while also adding 16bit functionality.

That said, the video I link used an ARM processor as an 'accelerator' that includes a routine to downgrade to C64 graphics.
It's still quite impressive.

The C65's VIC-III was gonna exceed A1000 graphics. The 65CE02 was to run at 3.57Mhz. This would have killed Amiga sales and could/would have produced a console to beat the SNES and MegaDrive/Genesis in capability.