@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: @kolla Quote: kolla wrote: Nice to know that once kickstarts are removed/replaced, it’s no longer an Amiga. Well, it was enough to read the documentation for understanding it. Quote: Someone better notify Chucky, his DiagROM is specifically made for NOT Amiga! ?!?

Once kickstart rom is replaced with diagrom, the system is no longer an Amiga, right? So perhaps he should not callit the Amiga DiagROM, the DiagnosticRom for the Amiga?

Quote:

Quote: DiscreetFX wrote: I boot the Amiga Kickstart ROM and load AmigaOS 3.2 on my Vampire V4 no problem in seconds so I guess it’s definitely an Amiga then. :) Well, it depends entirely on HOW you have the Kickstart on your system: is it a ROM? Really?

What is your definition of ROM then? Something more than just data available from any kind of Read Only Memory? Does it have to be a chip? So an … eh… “amiga� that has kickstart on flash disk, that strictly speaking isn’t read-only.. no longer an Amiga?

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@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Then don't add comments on threads where my article are posted, since you don't read them: I don't copy & paste their content here, rather just links are reported. I don't take my orders from you. You're not in any position to enforce demands.

You should take them from your honour and be coherent.
Quote:

Quote: Yes: I can't imitate bots. Sorry for that... You're just lazy.

I fully agree about the laziness, because that's exactly what happens when requiring copying & pasting stuff after that the link to the article was already provided.

BTW, the article has an organic writing about the Amiga and the chipset: copying & pasting stuff from means like making a stew...
Quote:

Quote: Examples aren't relevant. You've to carefully read your sentence, and understand why it's so different compared to what are trying to do now. Examples are reverent.

Again, no. Here's your sentence:

Fact: Amiga's custom chipset is a patch for multimedia incompetent and weak IPC 68000.

which has nothing to do with the examples that you've already reported.

As I've said, it's a question of SEMANTICS. The sentences are in English, which is YOUR native language (well, it should have been mine as well, since I was born in USA. But I left the country when I was just 3.5 years old), however the MEANING (AKA semantic) IS DIFFERENT.

WORDS ARE IMPORTANT! You used PRECISE (and DIFFERENT) words to express concepts/ideas which LOOK/SEEM to be the same thing (because the argument is the same), but they are NOT.

Do you spot the difference now?
Quote:

SNES doesn't need 68000 to kick ass in 2D graphics.

Indeed. Which, as I've already said, it was very common at the time (with the Archimedes exception).

However, this does NOT prove your previous sentence.
Quote:

Quote: irrelevant: see above. Your frozen "1985" argument is Irrelevant.

Well, it wasn't me writing about the Sharp X68000, Capcom CP1 System, Street Fighter II, and even about the APUs when the discussion on this part was about the Amiga 1000 = 1985. Right?

Not only words are important, but the CONTEXT is also very important when there's an undergoing discussion...
Quote:

Quote: @cdimauro Right. And it was on 1985. There's no UNTIL that applies here. Even because the project started 3 years before. For mainstream CPUs, 32-bit ARM and 32-bit 386 ultimately doomed 32-bit 68K.

Which, again, is totally irrelevant on this context. See above: it was clearly written "1985", as well as talking about Amiga 1000 development. Context = Amiga 1000.
Quote:

Quote: @cdimauro Guess what: it moved to PowerPCs... Where are Motorola's PowerPC game consoles? IBM is not Motorola. From https://segaretro.org/History_of_the_Sega_Saturn/Development Sega rejected 68030 for SuperH-2. Motorola's PowerPC 601 wasn't the "cheap RISC".

Who cares about consoles now? I was talking about Motorola which moved to PowerPC. If no console has used its chips, it's totally irrelevant.

The point was: Motorola killed its beautiful 68k family and embraced PowerPCs. That's why there was no other possibility for the 68k family to evolve, like it happened to x86 and other processors (ARM included).
Quote:

Quote: @cdimauro On 1985 on 1985... on 1985... That's your argument framing which is frozen in 1985.

Well, do you what? This part of the discussion was about the Amiga 1000 AND its development. Which arrived on 1985. And it started being developed three years before.

Sorry for being "in topic"!
Quote:

My argument is for 16-bit era gaming platform results.

Indeed. I know it very well.

However, that part is related to the subsequent Amiga evolution (which I'm covering with the new series of articles. More on the next one, which is covering the graphics).

Just to be clear: that's ("16-bit" consoles) a SEPARATE discussion from the other ones (Amiga 1000 development).

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @cdimauro Quote: cdimauro wrote: Well, it was enough to read the documentation for understanding it. Once kickstart rom is replaced with diagrom, the system is no longer an Amiga, right? So perhaps he should not callit the Amiga DiagROM, the DiagnosticRom for the Amiga?

I don't know this DiagROM and how it worked. Is it a ROM which includes one of the Amiga OSes? Then it's fine -> Amiga. Otherwise -> not an Amiga.

K.I.S.S..
Quote:

Quote: Well, it depends entirely on HOW you have the Kickstart on your system: is it a ROM? Really? What is your definition of ROM then? Something more than just data available from any kind of Read Only Memory? Does it have to be a chip?

kolla, are you serious? I don't even reply on those dumb questions.
Quote:

So an … eh… “amiga� that has kickstart on flash disk, that strictly speaking isn’t read-only.. no longer an Amiga?

Neither here: I've already reported PRECISELY what an Amiga 1000 had and how it worked.

Either better read what other people are writing or... grow.

@cdimauro

Quote:

I don't know this DiagROM and how it worked. Is it a ROM which includes one of the Amiga OSes? Then it's fine -> Amiga. Otherwise -> not an Amiga.

DiagROM is a custom ROM for diagnosing Amiga's hardware faults.

From https://www.diagrom.com/
Quote:

Aprox 22500 lines of Motorola 68000 Assembler code all done in AsmPRO on Amiga.

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@Thread

If you love the essence and design philosophy of what an Amiga or even an Amiga upgrade is then the Vampire V4 family of products shares in that design philosophy. I’ve owned and played with pretty much every incarnation of Amigas including Classic/PPC and the Vampire V4 has the most feeling of what an Amiga reboot would be to me personally. The only ones I haven’t touched is the A1222 and the A600GS. I’ll be getting a A600GS soon but won’t be getting a A1222. I already have a X5000 so no point in another PPC machine in 2024. After 20 some years of PPC machines I kind of hope it would be further along then it is. I’m always waiting to be surprised and excited about something new for PPC Amigas but it’s been a long time waiting. Even Dave Haynie former Commodore Amiga designer loves the Vampire V4. What better endorsement is there since Jay Miner is long gone and can’t comment?

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 23-Jul-2024 at 07:59 AM.
Last edited by DiscreetFX on 23-Jul-2024 at 07:54 AM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: I don't know this DiagROM and how it worked. Is it a ROM which includes one of the Amiga OSes? Then it's fine -> Amiga. Otherwise -> not an Amiga. DiagROM is a custom ROM for diagnosing Amiga's hardware faults. From https://www.diagrom.com/ Quote: Aprox 22500 lines of Motorola 68000 Assembler code all done in AsmPRO on Amiga.

Thanks. Then it's proven.


@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote: @Thread If you love the essence and design philosophy of what an Amiga or even an Amiga upgrade is then the Vampire V4 family of products shares in that design philosophy.

I don't think that they have the same design philosophy. How can you state this?
Quote:

Even Dave Haynie former Commodore Amiga designer loves the Vampire V4. What better endorsement is there since Jay Miner is long gone and can’t comment?

Maybe it's better that he cannot comment anymore.

In fact, the endorsement of Haynie isn't a surprise, since he has the same hacker / patchwork mindset.

@cdimauro

It’s pretty simple to state actually.

http://www.apollo-computer.com/v4standalone.php

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@cdimauro

Quote:

Then it's proven.

Then what is proven?

As someone so … “engaged�… you often seem a bit out of touch with what’s really going on.

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@cdimauro

I speak of products like this:

https://www.amiga-shop.net/en/Amiga-Hardware/Amiga-classic-hardware/KickRom-Flash-4x-Flash-Rom-adapter-27C400-emulator::1305.html

Does the system cease to be Amiga with something like this installed?

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@kolla @cdmauro

It's the classical "Ship of Theseus" conundrum.

@cdmiauro appears to be a purist in this regard, and is of the view that if a single plank of wood is replaced, it is no longer the Ship of Theseus.

Other's consider it to be the the vessel that Theseus and his crew sailed into stories of heroism, irrespective of its timber composition.

Thus, just like the Ship of Theseus, the Amiga is in a superposition of being both the unadulterated seminal system which inspired so many, and the various hacks which it influenced over the following decades.

If you could've been there in 2001 to see my beige AT full tower, with 2 SCSI optical drives (1x CD-ROM, 1 x CD-R), 2 x 3.5" floppy drives (1 x HD, 1 x DD), a PC 104 keyboard, 17" SXGA monitor, running Debian PowerPC Linux in 24-bit colour thanks to a Permedia 2 GPU, you wouldn't think there's an A1200 in there somewhere. Was it still an Amiga? Not in any shape or form resembling the original shipbuilder's design, but it did also run Amiga OS 3.9, and with a second monitor attached (NEC Multisync 3D), I could play Amiga games.

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@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote: @cdimauro It’s pretty simple to state actually. http://www.apollo-computer.com/v4standalone.php

That's just advertising. Proving your words is a bit more complicated.


@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Then it's proven. Then what is proven?

The definition doesn't apply... "obviously".
Quote:

As someone so … “engaged�…

Engaged? For what? I did't work for Commodore neither other hardware third-parties or something similar.
Quote:

you often seem a bit out of touch with what’s really going on.

Reality = Commodore documentation.

Something which you should seriously start reading AND understanding to evalute what was the reality (and remained as it is, since nobody changed it).
Quote:

kolla wrote: @cdimauro I speak of products like this: https://www.amiga-shop.net/en/Amiga-Hardware/Amiga-classic-hardware/KickRom-Flash-4x-Flash-Rom-adapter-27C400-emulator::1305.html Does the system cease to be Amiga with something like this installed?

I give you an home work: https://www.britannica.com/technology/read-only-memory

Now you should be able to answer yourself.

P.S. I, PERSONALLY, SUBJECTIVELY, have no problems for accepting this device.


@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: @kolla @cdmauro It's the classical "Ship of Theseus" conundrum. @cdmiauro appears to be a purist in this regard, and is of the view that if a single plank of wood is replaced, it is no longer the Ship of Theseus. Other's consider it to be the the vessel that Theseus and his crew sailed into stories of heroism, irrespective of its timber composition. Thus, just like the Ship of Theseus, the Amiga is in a superposition of being both the unadulterated seminal system which inspired so many, and the various hacks which it influenced over the following decades. If you could've been there in 2001 to see my beige AT full tower, with 2 SCSI optical drives (1x CD-ROM, 1 x CD-R), 2 x 3.5" floppy drives (1 x HD, 1 x DD), a PC 104 keyboard, 17" SXGA monitor, running Debian PowerPC Linux in 24-bit colour thanks to a Permedia 2 GPU, you wouldn't think there's an A1200 in there somewhere. Was it still an Amiga? Not in any shape or form resembling the original shipbuilder's design, but it did also run Amiga OS 3.9, and with a second monitor attached (NEC Multisync 3D), I could play Amiga games.

I'm not a purist: I "just" follow Commodore's documentation (as I've always done since I had my Amigas and tikered/worked with them).

@cdimauro

I’m not the designer of the Vampire V4 so don’t have to justify it.



Everyone is welcome to make up their own mind.

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 24-Jul-2024 at 01:38 PM.

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@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote: @cdimauro I’m not the designer of the Vampire V4 so don’t have to justify it. Everyone is welcome to make up their own mind.

Well, then I don't understand while people don't "just" enjoy what they like. Do you like the Vampire? Use it and be happy, even if it's not an Amiga!

It looks like that The Name is an obsession which is widespread on the post-Amiga community.

However, definitions can NOT be altered only for personal wishes / daydreams.

Is that difficult to get fun of something which in reality is not an Amiga? Seriously?

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: However, definitions can NOT be altered only for personal wishes / daydreams.

Said the purist

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@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: @cdimauro Quote: cdimauro wrote: However, definitions can NOT be altered only for personal wishes / daydreams. Said the purist

Can you redefine the speed of light because YOU think differently?

That's exactly the point and this isn't about being purist: it's about being a NORMAL person which should accept the REALITY.

@cdimauro

Speed of light isn’t defined.
(though speed of electromagnetic radiation in perfect vacuum is)

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @cdimauro Speed of light isn’t defined. (though speed of electromagnetic radiation in perfect vacuum is)

I was the picky one, right?

This "clarified" (SIC!) then, please, tell me the definition of Amiga now. And of ROM too, since it seems that you (finally!) like definitions...

@cdimauro

Quote:

Thanks. Then it's proven.

Commodore's Kickstart ROM's hardware diagnostic functions wasn't good enough, hence a custom diagnostic ROM was created.

PiStorm can use DiagROM image on the microSD card to help diagnose Amiga hardware faults.

_________________
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@agami

In the past, Commodore has purchased non-Motorola 68000 clones for Amigas and Commodore was preparing for PA-RISC clone powered Amiga.

A licensed 68020 clone was contemplated for single chip A1200 coupled with Amiga Hombre (two main chips) i.e. it's effectively Commodore's PiStorm "cheap RISC" approach with cost-reduced single chip 68K/AGA Vampire.

Commodore's Amiga Hombre was the "cheap RISC" approach that is closer to ARM/RPi's approach instead of Motorola's PowerPC 60x/Apple PowerMac expensive price approach.

It's a delusion from PowerAmiga camp that attempted to overlay Apple's PowerMac for the Amiga.

Amiga's target audience is game players, game content creators, RPi tinkers and low cost i.e. a hobby computer, a home microcomputer, not another PC with a different CPU ISA.

Last edited by Hammer on 26-Jul-2024 at 03:45 AM.

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@DiscreetFX

Quote:

If you love the essence and design philosophy of what an Amiga or even an Amiga upgrade is then the Vampire V4 family of products shares in that design philosophy. I’ve owned and played with pretty much every incarnation of Amigas including Classic/PPC and the Vampire V4 has the most feeling of what an Amiga reboot would be to me personally. The only ones I haven’t touched is the A1222 and the A600GS. I’ll be getting a A600GS soon but won’t be getting a A1222.

Vampire Standalone V4, A1222 and A600GS hasn't captured C= Amiga's open-ended local CPU slot expandability compared to work progress AmiCube F5000 with PiStorm support. AmiCube F5000 uses Cyclone 10.

PiStorm camp is also designing their FPGA Amiga clone for PiStorm.

Apollo-Core could have replicated C= Amiga's CPU expandability instead of acting like another mini-Motorola.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB