@cdimauro

Quote:

And do you know why? Because you haven't READ AND (especially) UNDERSTOOD the Amiga Hardware Manual in your life. Not even talking about having developed something using the Amiga hardware.

Prove it. Your argument is a red herring.

Let's turn this topic about a person. I'm game for a flame war.

You haven't grasped the primary purpose of Amiga custom chip's value addon on top of "plain Jane" 68000.

Last edited by Hammer on 16-Jul-2024 at 01:08 PM.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote: One of my grips* with AROS is on how it performs on 68k, although I bet it all the programs run as fast as they do in workbench, the RTG is not ao well tunned as Workbench and doesn't feel as responsive in a lower performance machine. aros tests *I obviously have no ill will towards AROS, with so few developers and so much distance from the community they do what they can when they can, it's more of acknowledging the potential

Unfortunately AROS has an abstraction layer which causes slow downs on the Amiga machines: there's too much overhead.

That's the reason why the Apollo team has forked it and it's using a more direct approach, AFAIR.

Plus... the Amiga o.s. has many parts in assembly.

@MagicSN

Quote:

Real Amiga use AmigaOS. Just that.

So any computer capable of running amiga emulator?

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Neither the PiStorm. You failed to grasp the Amiga custom chip's value add over plain Jane 68000. Spectrum QL says Hi.

What's not clear to you about this:

"Again, I've just written an article about it which you clearly have NOT read..."

?

Do you understand that I've already replied to your sentence in my previous comment? And you're repeating it again, like a... bot?
Quote:

Quote: That's YOUR invention, which you've NOT proved. Care to prove it? Spectrum QL says Hi. Atari ST says Hi.

And I say: the bot is not yet able to PROVE HIS statement. QED.
Quote:

You failed to grasp the Amiga custom chip's value add over plain Jane 68000.

See above, bot: already replied (on the previous comment)!

When do you think to start understanding what people write, BEFORE repeating AGAIN the same things? Are you a human being or a bot? I bet more the second, since you continue to offer a lot of proofs about it...
Quote:

Quote: I've already written an article about it, dear bot... Fuck your "dear bot" insult.

The bot entered the insult mode...
Quote:

Quote: I reveal you another secret: both 68008 and 68000 deliver weaker computation capabilities. So, IN GENERAL: not only in the multimedia side... Hint: Amiga was marketed in the "multimedia" context e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhXC_vQ5IkM

Hint: the 68000's computation abilities INCLUDE the multimedia abilities.

You don't even understand plain, simple, elementary English, bot!
Quote:

Quote: Again, I've just written an article about it which you clearly have NOT read... Hint: The world doesn't revolve around you and your website. Hint 2: Amigaworld.net forum does NOT include your website.

Hint: you've replied to the thread were I've published my article on that topic.

But you clearly haven't read it, looking at your replies. Why then you've replied there? Only for insulting me?

And why you haven't checked my article after that I've stated that you can find the proper information my article? Maybe because you prefer to continue repeating the same thing like a bot?
Quote:

Quote: it's called Hyperbole, and it's a figure of speech, dear bot.. Your exaggerated statements are garbage.

Like happened with Karlos, you don't understand: you don't understand the sarcasm neither a hyperbole.

Maybe you don't even know the meaning of the word and why it's used on discussions. It's an exaggeration, yes, but with a PRECISE purpose. Which you still haven't got.

Guess why: because you don't understand. Bot!
Quote:

Quote: And now you're insulting. What a news! You started the flamewar with the bot negative attribution on me.

Well, I've just stated what you effectively are. And I give a proof of that, no problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_bot
An Internet bot, web robot, robot or simply bot (an abbreviation of robot),[1] is a software application that runs automated tasks (scripts) on the Internet, usually with the intent to imitate human activity, such as messaging, on a large scale.
[...]
The most extensive use of bots is for web crawling, in which an automated script fetches, analyzes and files information from web servers.
[...]
Social bots are sets of algorithms that take on the duties of repetitive sets of instructions in order to establish a service or connection among social networking users. Among the various designs of networking bots, the most common are chat bots, algorithms designed to converse with a human user, and social bots, algorithms designed to mimic human behaviors to converse with patterns similar to those of a human user.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatbot
A chatbot (originally chatterbot)[1] is a software application or web interface that is designed to mimic human conversation through text or voice interactions.[2][3][4] Modern chatbots are typically online and use generative artificial intelligence systems that are capable of maintaining a conversation with a user in natural language and simulating the way a human would behave as a conversational partner.
[...]
As chatbots work by predicting responses rather than knowing the meaning of their responses, this means they can produce coherent-sounding but inaccurate or fabricated content, referred to as ‘hallucinations’. When humans use and apply chatbot content contaminated with hallucinations, this results in ‘botshit’.

Do you see? It's precisely describing you!
Quote:

You're fucking a hypocrite. You defamed my character, I will fight back. You start wars.

Oh, my gosh: I'm fully scared!!!
Quote:

Quote: However, you still don't know neither understand why the 68000 was chosen. You failed to grasp why Amiga custom chip's value add was designed in addition to the plain Jane 68000.

And here, again, the bot continues to repeat like a parrot the same thing, despite having had already my answer...
Quote:

Fact: Amiga custom chip's value-added design was to patch 68000's incompetent multimedia capabilities.

Fact. I'm still missing the PROOF of this (clearly false) statement.

However, and as I've already reported, bots don't know the meaning of their response, so I've no hope that you can give a proper answer for that. Poor bot...
Quote:

1984 released 68020 has a hardware barrel shifter which enabled A1200's Chip RAM gimped 68EC020 14Mhz to reach 49 percent of Alice Blitter. Amiga custom chip's value-added design was cheaper for a targeted workload against 68020 and 68EC020-14 ($16.99 in 1992).

Same as above: the bot "produce coherent-sounding but inaccurate or fabricated content".

In fact, the context was the Amiga. The first model. And this clearly doesn't apply, because you're talking of the Amiga 1200, which was released 7 (SEVEN) years after.

Bot...
Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: And do you know why? Because you haven't READ AND (especially) UNDERSTOOD the Amiga Hardware Manual in your life. Not even talking about having developed something using the Amiga hardware. Prove it. Your argument is a red herring.

Well, you already gave plenty of proofs about that. However, the most notable on this specific context is this:

"Fact: Amiga custom chip's value-added design was to patch 68000's incompetent multimedia capabilities."

which you haven't yet proved exactly because you've never read the Amiga Hardware Manual (neither developed something using the Amiga hardware. In fact, reading such manual is a prerequisite for developing such stuff).
Quote:

Let's turn this topic about a person. I'm game for a flame war.

Ohhhh. I'm fully scared #2.
Quote:

You haven't grasped the primary purpose of Amiga custom chip's value addon on top of "plain Jane" 68000.

And here the bot repeats, again, the same thing.

Anyway, see above bot. Albeit you, as a bot, cannot understand it...

@cdimauro

So... an A3000UX running Amix isn't Amiga?

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @MagicSN Quote: Real Amiga use AmigaOS. Just that. So any computer capable of running amiga emulator?

Ouch. Preparing the popcorns waiting for the answer.

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @cdimauro So... an A3000UX running Amix isn't Amiga?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_3000UX

The Amiga 3000UX is a model of the Amiga computer family that was released with Amiga Unix, a full port of AT&T Unix System V Release 4 (SVR4), installed along with AmigaOS.

I leave the answer to you...

@kolla

I would say AmigaOS should be the primary OS
used. Into what OS do you boot up normally?

@All

Just want to say the point of this thread was not to debate what is and isn't an Amiga in your mind, happy cdimauro has a thread for just that..

https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=45270&forum=2

This thread was more about how a new high end Classic Amiga market has emerged over the last few years, thanks to tools like emulation, fpga or pistorm, Classic Amiga software now can have access to the absolute top end real classic Amiga hardware could be and even beyond, thanks to the speed of these solutions offer.

Now some might not like that this market referred to as Amiga, as it emulation based and so not a Real Amiga. Thats fine, and another reason why I thought maybe a better name could be found to refer to these system.

After all due to the legal mess, two solution dont use the AmigaOS and use AROS, Apollo OS and AmiBench.

Part of me thinks this is part of the problem. It would of been so much better if the teams came together to make maybe an AmigaOS that would only run on these systems. Then the few devs that are going to make apps for this platform could least just point to and say, requires AmigaOS 3X (my idea for the name of this OS, in the very unlikely event that the teams could come together, Hyperion, Cloanto, Apollo, Amigakit, A-eon, Aros)

instead, just like the AmigaNG market, the New Classic Amiga platform is already splitting between different routes, which is a bit of a shame for a small new market.

That kinda my foolish aim to try and bring about a standard for devs to follow for this new high end classic market.

Which looks like it should be refered to as 68K+ market, based on the polls

Last edited by amigang on 17-Jul-2024 at 11:38 AM.

_________________
AmigaNG, YouTube, LeaveReality Studio

@amigang

There's no need of having developers working for free as a way of keeping AmigaOS hostage, would be far better if they were improving an Open Source solution where all could benefit, I mean, if you're working for free, why stop there...

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@pixie

Once a developer works under NDA on the official AmigaOS source code, sadly they are bound legally and cannot work on third party OS. This is the reason we use "clean" coders to develop our replacement OS components.

_________________
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Links: www.amigakit.com | New Products | A600GS

@MagicSN

Quote:

MagicSN wrote: @kolla I would say AmigaOS should be the primary OS used. Into what OS do you boot up normally?

Any one you wish, darling…

What does “into� imply here? What comes up on the screen? How does Amithlon fit in here? Or any windows system that has WinUAE set as SHELL? Or a Linux kernel with qemu-m68k-system launched from initrd, instantly booting old MacOS? What about AROS/hosted? It’s a slippery slope!

_________________
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@amigakit

AROS has been around for a long time though... It seems the only open source projects the community has some fondness are hardware related

https://youtu.be/kv4aIT50zZw

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: @kolla Quote: kolla wrote: @cdimauro So... an A3000UX running Amix isn't Amiga? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_3000UX The Amiga 3000UX is a model of the Amiga computer family that was released with Amiga Unix, a full port of AT&T Unix System V Release 4 (SVR4), installed along with AmigaOS. I leave the answer to you...

I’m sorry - my question was meant for MagicSN and not you, my mistake!

@MagicSN

Does my Commodore Amiga cease to be Amiga once I replace AmigaOS with Linux or NetBSD? What if it starts mac emulator at boot? Or boots Minix? Or present Oberon as desktop instead of Workbench? Despite all these operating systems using the term “amiga� specifically about this hardware? Does Linux identify an X5000 or A1222 as “Amiga�?

Last edited by kolla on 18-Jul-2024 at 12:20 AM.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@cdimauro

Quote:

Do you understand that I've already replied to your sentence in my previous comment? And you're repeating it again, like a... bot?

*Again, I've just written an article about it which you clearly have NOT read..."*

1. The world does NOT revolve around your website. It's YOUR responsibility to present your complete arguments in this discussion forum. I don't give a toss about your website.

2. You failed to present a consistent argument on Amiga's custom chip value add over basic 68000.

Fact: Amiga's custom chipset is a patch for multimedia incompetent and weak IPC 68000.

You're the real bot.

Quote:

nd I say: the bot is not yet able to PROVE HIS statement. QED.

You FAILED to recognize the difference between Amiga's custom chipset value add over weaker value add 68000-based platforms such as Spectrum QL and Atari ST.

Quote:

Hint: the 68000's computation abilities INCLUDE the multimedia abilities.

Again, you FAILED to recognize the difference between Amiga's custom chipset value add over lightweight value add from other 68000-based platforms such as Spectrum QL and Atari ST.

There are other 68000 systems with substantially weaker multimedia capabilities e.g. incompetent smooth scrolling features with the Atari ST.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/incompetent
Quote:

1 a : lacking the qualities needed for effective action b : unable to function properly 2 : not legally qualified 3 : inadequate to or unsuitable for a particular purpose

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/incompetence
Quote:

lack of ability to do something successfully or as it should be done: incompetence lack of the ability, skill, or knowledge that is needed to do a job or perform an action correctly or to a satisfactory standard:

Multimedia capabilities are not created equal.

There are other multimedia incompetent 68000-based platforms OR there are other less competent multimedia 68000-based platforms such as Spectrum QL, Atari ST.

Sharp X68000 has excellent multimedia capabilities but it can be pricy.

It's you who failed basic English. Stick with Italian.


Quote:

You don't even understand plain, simple, elementary English, bot!

You failed the basic understanding of the word "incompetent". Stick with Italian or learn proper English.

Quote:

Well, I've just stated what you effectively are. And I give a proof of that, no problem.

And I say: the Italian is not yet able to PROVE HIS statement.

Quote:

Like happened with Karlos, you don't understand: you don't understand the sarcasm neither a hyperbole.

The exaggerated statements that put words in another person's mouth are FALSE.

Last edited by Hammer on 18-Jul-2024 at 03:24 AM.
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Last edited by Hammer on 18-Jul-2024 at 03:18 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 18-Jul-2024 at 03:01 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 18-Jul-2024 at 03:00 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 18-Jul-2024 at 02:53 AM.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@MagicSN

Quote:

MagicSN wrote: @kolla I would say AmigaOS should be the primary OS used.

On projects like Amithlon the main OS is still the Amiga one, since the Linux kernel is used to bare minimum just to the purpose of running the Amiga environment.
This could be considered a corner case, but I think that it's still a valid example.

Besides this, any system which directly boots a proper emulator perfectly fits the definition.

Think about UAE which directly boots like the OS on a PC, either with the legacy BIOS interface or as UEFI.
Of course, it needs some changes to integrate a minimum set of drivers (disks, video, audio, I/O ports) to run.

Another example which does this is Emu68, which is bare metal: not using Linux and providing its own code for such stuff (AFAIK).

@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote: @All Just want to say the point of this thread was not to debate what is and isn't an Amiga in your mind, happy cdimauro has a thread for just that.. https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=45270&forum=2

Yeah, maybe it's better to move there such discussions, if others agree.

Quote:

This thread was more about how a new high end Classic Amiga market has emerged over the last few years, thanks to tools like emulation, fpga or pistorm, Classic Amiga software now can have access to the absolute top end real classic Amiga hardware could be and even beyond, thanks to the speed of these solutions offer. Now some might not like that this market referred to as Amiga, as it emulation based and so not a Real Amiga. Thats fine, and another reason why I thought maybe a better name could be found to refer to these system. After all due to the legal mess, two solution dont use the AmigaOS and use AROS, Apollo OS and AmiBench. Part of me thinks this is part of the problem. It would of been so much better if the teams came together to make maybe an AmigaOS that would only run on these systems. Then the few devs that are going to make apps for this platform could least just point to and say, requires AmigaOS 3X (my idea for the name of this OS, in the very unlikely event that the teams could come together, Hyperion, Cloanto, Apollo, Amigakit, A-eon, Aros) instead, just like the AmigaNG market, the New Classic Amiga platform is already splitting between different routes, which is a bit of a shame for a small new market. That kinda my foolish aim to try and bring about a standard for devs to follow for this new high end classic market. Which looks like it should be refered to as 68K+ market, based on the polls

There's no doubt that. That's also the reason why Hyperion decided to release other Amiga OS versions (3.1.4, 3.2) and will continue on that because it's profitable.

However, I'd like to go beyond what I've already enjoyed with my Amigas: a more modern OS, yes, but also modernized applications and, especially, games.

@cdimauro

>Second, Vampires have:
>- no CPU from Motorola 68k family;
>- no custom chipset from the above ones;
>- no Amiga o.s..

>So, they are the last ones which could be called as Amigas.

Motorola has not really made any CPUs for ages so how could it have one?

It fully supports OCS/ECS/AGA and even has a new better than AAA chipset called SAGA.

AmigaOS can be installed and run as an option if you buy it.

_________________
Sent from my Quantum Computer.

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Do you understand that I've already replied to your sentence in my previous comment? And you're repeating it again, like a... bot? *Again, I've just written an article about it which you clearly have NOT read..."* 1. The world does NOT revolve around your website. It's YOUR responsibility to present your complete arguments in this discussion forum. I don't give a toss about your website.

Again, the bot continues. That's purely, elementary logic, bot!

IF you stated something AND I say that I've written an article which covers it, what's not clear to you that I gave my answer/reply on that? Do you understand it?!?
Quote:

2. You failed to present a consistent argument on Amiga's custom chip value add over basic 68000.

Same as above.
Quote:

Fact: Amiga's custom chipset is a patch for multimedia incompetent and weak IPC 68000.

Fact: this is YOUR statement which you NEVER PROVED! Bot!
Quote:

You're the real bot.

LOL Again the childish "Specchio riflesso".
Quote:

Quote: nd I say: the bot is not yet able to PROVE HIS statement. QED. You FAILED to recognize the difference between Amiga's custom chipset value add over weaker value add 68000-based platforms such as Spectrum QL and Atari ST.

Where? In your parallel universe? I've already replied on that, as it was reported on my article as well.

Beside that, you're still NOT proving YOUR statement...
Quote:

Quote: Hint: the 68000's computation abilities INCLUDE the multimedia abilities. Again, you FAILED to recognize the difference between Amiga's custom chipset value add over lightweight value add from other 68000-based platforms such as Spectrum QL and Atari ST.

Non-sense. This has nothing to do with this specific part of the discussion, which was only centered on the 68000 (alone).
Quote:

There are other 68000 systems with substantially weaker multimedia capabilities e.g. incompetent smooth scrolling features with the Atari ST.

Irrelevant.
Quote:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/incompetent Quote: 1 a : lacking the qualities needed for effective action b : unable to function properly 2 : not legally qualified 3 : inadequate to or unsuitable for a particular purpose https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/incompetence Quote: lack of ability to do something successfully or as it should be done: incompetence lack of the ability, skill, or knowledge that is needed to do a job or perform an action correctly or to a satisfactory standard:

Irrelevant.
Quote:

Multimedia capabilities are not created equal.

Why don't you take your time machine and tell it to the 68000 designers, BEFORE that they put in production such processor?
Quote:

There are other multimedia incompetent 68000-based platforms OR there are other less competent multimedia 68000-based platforms such as Spectrum QL, Atari ST.

Irrelevant.
Quote:

Sharp X68000 has excellent multimedia capabilities but it can be pricy.

Guess what: it has the same processor or the Amiga.

Now, could you please tell me which processor should have been picked since the 68000 sucked so much at multimedia? Hint: PiStorm wasn't an option on the first half of the 80's...
Quote:

It's you who failed basic English. Stick with Italian.

LOL Failed on what? Care to prove it?

On the other side, your luck of elementary logic is embarrassing...
Quote:

Quote: You don't even understand plain, simple, elementary English, bot! You failed the basic understanding of the word "incompetent". Stick with Italian or learn proper English.

Again, the language wasn't the problem here, rather elementary logic.

Here we go, like elementary school:
1) 68000 sucked at general performance;
2) multimedia performances are part of the general performance;
3) 68000 sucked at multimedia performance.

This is called Aristotle's syllogism, and it's... elementary logic. Bot!
Quote:

Quote: Well, I've just stated what you effectively are. And I give a proof of that, no problem. And I say: the Italian is not yet able to PROVE HIS statement.

I leave this judgment to the readers.
Quote:

Quote: Like happened with Karlos, you don't understand: you don't understand the sarcasm neither a hyperbole. The exaggerated statements that put words in another person's mouth are FALSE.

It's obviously false, what do you expect?!? It's hyperbole. Do you know its meaning and why it's used on a discussion? Bot!

@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote: @cdimauro >Second, Vampires have: >- no CPU from Motorola 68k family; >- no custom chipset from the above ones; >- no Amiga o.s.. >So, they are the last ones which could be called as Amigas. Motorola has not really made any CPUs for ages so how could it have one?

I've already replied on that on another comment: we can talk again once they'll create an ASIC.
Quote:

It fully supports OCS/ECS/AGA

Please, don't report false statements: it's not fully compatible with such chipsets.
Quote:

and even has a new better than AAA chipset called SAGA.

That's good, nothing to say here.
Quote:

AmigaOS can be installed and run as an option if you buy it.

It should be bundled with the machine.