@kolla

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kolla wrote: @cdimauro Quote: as you know, I worked to Fightin' Spirit and written part of its graphic engine. I was also working at USA Racing Yes, how can anyone not know, you’ve been harping on it for years and bring it up constantly!

Good. Then... WHY have you asked? Your usual lack of elementary logic, or... it just because you like to troll me (another of your bad habits)?
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But what is there to learn from Fightin’ Spirit?

Nothing for you, of course, since you're a poor sysadmin.
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kolla wrote: @amigang cdimauro Isn’t in this for helping anyone, it’s all about his own ego and nothing more.

First of all you've to PROVE it. Another wagon of popcorns.

Second, and let's temporarily assume that it's true: what's your problem with that? The important thing is if I write good/correct things or not.

Third, where is it written that someone should always help other people? WHERE?!? Specifically, why ME?!?

Are you helping someone with comments like this? No, and you know what? Because this is another chance that you took to try ridicule me, since you're still burning for the many times that I've (virtually) slapped you.

But as usual, you got what you deserved, dear troll.
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He’s just another Gunnar. The title should be … The plague of meglomaniac Amiga personalities.

See above. And what about you now: don't you feel part of them?

Last edited by cdimauro on 01-Oct-2024 at 07:31 PM.

@cdimauro

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I prefer software written for a platform which runs on any configuration (unless there are precise requirements).

And Black Lotus demos have exact requirements, some been done for A500, some for AGA, some fort RTG and even PPC.

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What was normal?

Trial and error. Same was for 8-bit productions, same was for 16-bit productions and surely PC gamers scene boom. There are best and worse everywhere, and focusing on worse could even be funnier.
- Worse Amiga games
- Apps making fastest Guru :DDD

I was always end user, and a gamer. It was normal that companies have quick assembled teams, and unless having talented teams like Psygnosis or Team 17 of the days, they would produce half balked and sometimes very bad games and even buggy software. Games went through a lot of patching later to work on expanded Amigas (WHDLoad slave log testify to that) and a bit better situation was with programs that had legal/BBS/FTP and later early HTML3 WWW updates. Like e.g. some Amiga CD games have 3-6 updates to make it what they were supposed to be.

As most shining example I would take arcade conversions. No doubt due to similarity of hardware to SNK machines of the era, even 1MB A500 could have almost exact same arcade quality ports. Some like Mortal Kombat shine and show it or Toki, Shadow Dancer were very 1:1, and some like Outrun, Afterburner, Street Fighter, Final Fight or even Double Dragons show it not. And these are not worse of the bunch. It shows big names like Ocean etc. could screw the road.

Most of given examples are lesser known, never proven and not talented. Its miracle they did make anything. Also, since taking advantage of Amigas best was dependent of knowledge of ASM and directly addressing the chips those who did not have access to documentation, legal hardware or could not grasp what to do were unable to exploit Amiga to the fullest.

Some stories of development are said on their own right, like infamous ClickBoom ports were mere exploits of Serbian Amiga talents but yet resulted in somewhat usable end results.

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There are plenty of good games written with Unity.

And x10 000 more worse. You haven`t grasped depths of what exist on Steam alone yet :D

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BTW, you've to take a look at Unity 6: the last tech demo shines. It will be a HUUUUUUGE improvement for indies developers, giving them an incredible modern engine which allows them to do GREAT things.

And so did OCS and AGA at times, but yet there were very few to make best of it.

_________________
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way!

@vox

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vox wrote: @cdimauro Quote: I prefer software written for a platform which runs on any configuration (unless there are precise requirements). And Black Lotus demos have exact requirements, some been done for A500, some for AGA, some fort RTG and even PPC.

Well, that's exactly my point about the precise requirements.

But... they should be clearly written. Otherwise, any configuration is assumed: even a future one.
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Quote: What was normal? Trial and error.

LOL
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Same was for 8-bit productions,

That's ok: they were like consoles, with mostly immutable hardware.
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same was for 16-bit productions and surely PC gamers scene boom.

That was different, because where were different, even very different hardware configuration. And plenty of documentation.

The 16-bit Age was a game changer: a radical move to something different, and very close to modernity.
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There are best and worse everywhere, and focusing on worse could even be funnier. - Worse Amiga games

That's a matter of taste.
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- Apps making fastest Guru :DDD

To be put in the blacklist.
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I was always end user, and a gamer. It was normal that companies have quick assembled teams, and unless having talented teams like Psygnosis or Team 17 of the days, they would produce half balked and sometimes very bad games and even buggy software. Games went through a lot of patching later to work on expanded Amigas (WHDLoad slave log testify to that) and a bit better situation was with programs that had legal/BBS/FTP and later early HTML3 WWW updates. Like e.g. some Amiga CD games have 3-6 updates to make it what they were supposed to be. As most shining example I would take arcade conversions. No doubt due to similarity of hardware to SNK machines of the era, even 1MB A500 could have almost exact same arcade quality ports. Some like Mortal Kombat shine and show it or Toki, Shadow Dancer were very 1:1, and some like Outrun, Afterburner, Street Fighter, Final Fight or even Double Dragons show it not. And these are not worse of the bunch. It shows big names like Ocean etc. could screw the road.

"bad" and "quality" here means something different from the article.
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Most of given examples are lesser known, never proven and not talented. Its miracle they did make anything. Also, since taking advantage of Amigas best was dependent of knowledge of ASM and directly addressing the chips those who did not have access to documentation, legal hardware or could not grasp what to do were unable to exploit Amiga to the fullest.

Well, no: the Amiga Hardware Reference Manual was already available on 1986. So, just one year after that the Amiga 1000 was presented and commercialized.
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Some stories of development are said on their own right, like infamous ClickBoom ports were mere exploits of Serbian Amiga talents but yet resulted in somewhat usable end results.

I don't know what you wanted to say here. Could you please clarify it?
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Quote: There are plenty of good games written with Unity. And x10 000 more worse. You haven`t grasped depths of what exist on Steam alone yet :D

I've almost 1400 games on my Steam library.
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Quote: BTW, you've to take a look at Unity 6: the last tech demo shines. It will be a HUUUUUUGE improvement for indies developers, giving them an incredible modern engine which allows them to do GREAT things. And so did OCS and AGA at times, but yet there were very few to make best of it.

This depends on the developers.

But at least with Unity 6 you start with a very powerfull engine and several good tools.

@cdimauro

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Well, that's exactly my point about the precise requirements. But... they should be clearly written. Otherwise, any configuration is assumed: even a future one.

Amiga and BBS scenes have established README.TXT and file_id.diz precisely for that, and every demo has precise requirements. See ADA https://ada.untergrund.net

If you are thinking of single hardware target Amiga models established mostly that, plus some expansions and that was the way of home computers. Consoles were a different beast, but even they have successor models.

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That was different, because where were different, even very different hardware configuration. And plenty of documentation. The 16-bit Age was a game changer: a radical move to something different, and very close to modernity. Quote:

Exactly the early video overlay edit, ratrace, wire and isometric 3D, more then CGA CBM Spectrum 16 colours and rich digital sound are reasons why people love Amiga concept: it offered multimedia expertience. That is why I would say I am Amigan. Its not close, it was modernity, and still is just evolved. Even early stereoscoipic VR.



quote]Well, no: the Amiga Hardware Reference Manual was already available on 1986. So, just one year after that the Amiga 1000 was presented and commercialized.[/quote]

It was not bundled in documentation with machines as e.g. Sinclair QL documentation was rich and proper, was not common knowledge and was certainly not availiable in post communist half of Europe. World is not just US and half of Europe, Australia and NZ and even then it wasnt mass printed and available. Let alone translated from English.

I had a chance to read it in Internet age. Certainly I wish I had before.

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I don't know what you wanted to say here. Could you please clarify it?

HAL with good rememberance of game authors per contribution indicates late post CBM Amiga gaming scene is mostly East European effort, like Polish, Serbian etc.

Special case to my heart is sad story of ClickBoom exploit, since I know DJ Nick and some of the actors and know how differently ClickBoom was presented as savior to truth. It show post bed time coders time before big studios was still a mess.
http://obligement.free.fr/articles_traduction/story_about_clickboom.php

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I've almost 1400 games on my Steam library.

Good I have ~1200 but less then 100 are worth of mention, and I passed clickers, Unity poor creations and similar in a huge loop.

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But at least with Unity 6 you start with a very powerfull engine and several good tools.

Its easier today on many levels, yet less quality prevails.

_________________
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way!

@cdimauro

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you've to PROVE it

Prove what? That you cannot shut up about your own excellence?
You do that so wonderfully well yourself.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@kolla

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kolla wrote: @cdimauro Quote: you've to PROVE it Prove what?

Again? Prove what YOU:

cdimauro Isn’t in this for helping anyone, it’s all about his own ego and nothing more.

have stated! That's the minimum requirement in a conversation where a troll like you have stated the usual mountains of craps against someone like me.

YOUR is the statement, YOUR the demonstration.

That's, again, ELEMENTARY LOGIC.
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That you cannot shut up about your own excellence?

Where? I reply to comments like your that are asking me something. If you ask me this:

Why don’t you sit down and produce some quality Amiga software,

I simply (!) give the (correct) answer.

If you don't want me write to you've, again, a simple, elementary thing to do: do NOT write me crap like that!

ELEMENTARY LOGIC, kolla: that's something that you continuously show to lack...
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You do that so wonderfully well yourself.

Well, if you wake up the sleeping dog, what do you expect: that it thanks you?

The "funny" thing is that you complain after you have pitifully tried to make me out to be the bad ogre.

I understand that you've your big limits, because nature was a very bad stepmother with you, but next time simply (!!!) avoid writing me, and you magically (!!!!) see that you'll got nothing from me.

Understood?

That's not difficult kolla, eh! Otherwise make a QI test, because there's something deeply wrong with you.

@vox

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vox wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Well, that's exactly my point about the precise requirements. But... they should be clearly written. Otherwise, any configuration is assumed: even a future one. Amiga and BBS scenes have established README.TXT and file_id.diz precisely for that, and every demo has precise requirements. See ADA https://ada.untergrund.net

Again, no problem if the requirements are written somewhere.

But those demos look modern and with high requirements. Probably they were written after that the Amiga market died. So, out of the period where most of the Amigans enjoy the software, and where requirements like that are almost always absent (except for bigger things like: it requires AGA).
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If you are thinking of single hardware target Amiga models established mostly that, plus some expansions and that was the way of home computers.

I would say no: Amiga was very different. It got a lot of expansions, as I've mentioned before, and its OS was constantly developed.

That's very different from the 8-bit Age.
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Consoles were a different beast, but even they have successor models.

With completely different hardware, so you need new software for them.
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Quote: Well, no: the Amiga Hardware Reference Manual was already available on 1986. So, just one year after that the Amiga 1000 was presented and commercialized. It was not bundled in documentation with machines as e.g. Sinclair QL documentation was rich and proper, was not common knowledge

Amiga had the AmigaBASIC and AmigaDOS manuals includes, AFAIR, which is enough for a generic audience.

If you wanted to have something better, you need to buy yourself the documentation.

For example, let's say that you wanted to write low-level things to push the performance of your machine: does it had an Assembly manual? I don't recall something like that, at least for Commodore machines (I had a Plus/4 first and a C128 after).
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and was certainly not availiable in post communist half of Europe. World is not just US and half of Europe, Australia and NZ and even then it wasnt mass printed and available. Let alone translated from English. I had a chance to read it in Internet age. Certainly I wish I had before.

Well, that wasn't the market of reference for the western companies, unfortunately. You were on your own...
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Quote: I don't know what you wanted to say here. Could you please clarify it? HAL with good rememberance of game authors per contribution indicates late post CBM Amiga gaming scene is mostly East European effort, like Polish, Serbian etc. Special case to my heart is sad story of ClickBoom exploit, since I know DJ Nick and some of the actors and know how differently ClickBoom was presented as savior to truth. It show post bed time coders time before big studios was still a mess. http://obligement.free.fr/articles_traduction/story_about_clickboom.php

OK, got it now, thanks.
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Quote: I've almost 1400 games on my Steam library. Good I have ~1200 but less then 100 are worth of mention, and I passed clickers, Unity poor creations and similar in a huge loop.

You can't pretend the quality of AAA productions from indies which are using Unity: they very little (human) resources, and you get what they could.

However, there are many nice games, considered the team. The good thing of indies is that you can find several experiments.
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Quote: But at least with Unity 6 you start with a very powerfull engine and several good tools. Its easier today on many levels, yet less quality prevails.

Let's give Unity 6 a chance: it was just demoed.

@cdimauro

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Not correct. Beyond3D is very well known for being populated by game developers.

Not correct. Beyond3D forum members include non-game developers e.g. Beyond3D has restrictions against Xbox vs PlayStation fanboy debates.


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Right, and that's the reason of the Amateur term: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/amateur An amateur is someone who does something as a hobby and not as a job. [...] Amateur sports or activities are done by people as a hobby and not as a job. And the Amiga is... rolling drum... a hobby! So, you don't even know YOUR mother tongue, joke of nature!

Wrong. The Amiga is just a computer platform like any other. Certain EAB forum members are paid for software engineering jobs that are outside the Amiga platform's scope since the Amiga is not a mainstream target platform.

Last edited by Hammer on 02-Oct-2024 at 05:31 AM.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@NutsAboutAmiga

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NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @cdimauro I feel nostalgic when reading that article, as you only talk about bad old code, not bad new code. Is it not wrong focus? considering you can’t do anything with old code, it is already written? I think there are many ways to be a bad coder, for multiple of reasons. One of problem today, is perhaps that we often forced into lowest denominator. For example, code optimized for no FPU, don’t use the GPU, and its not written for SMP, and does not use SIMD when we perhaps can. The platform from its lowest to it highest specs are where different in capability, and if you had to optimize for it, you have written code 3 or 4 times. This be time-consuming.

In mainstream platforms, Cinebench R24 mostly uses scalar instructions.

https://chipsandcheese.com/2023/10/22/cinebench-2024-reviewing-the-benchmark/

AVX-512 is used in Cinebench 2024, but in such low amounts that it’s irrelevant.

Although SSE and AVX provide 128-bit and 256-bit vector support respectively, Cinebench 2024 makes little use of vector compute. Most AVX or SSE instructions operate on scalar values.

The most common FP/vector math instructions are VMULSS (scalar FP32 multiply) and VADDSS (scalar FP32 add). About 6.8% of instructions do math on 128-bit vectors. 256-bit vectors are nearly absent, but AVX isn’t just about vector length. It provides non-destructive three operand instruction formats, and Cinebench leverages that.


Cinebench R24 is a bad benchmark for AVX vector workloads.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@Hammer

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Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Not correct. Beyond3D is very well known for being populated by game developers. Not correct. Beyond3D forum members include non-game developers e.g. Beyond3D has restrictions against Xbox vs PlayStation fanboy debates.

Really? And do you know why non-dev people are there? Because they had to see and interact with the developers: which is exactly the reason why Beyond3D is very well known.
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Quote: Right, and that's the reason of the Amateur term: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/amateur An amateur is someone who does something as a hobby and not as a job. [...] Amateur sports or activities are done by people as a hobby and not as a job. And the Amiga is... rolling drum... a hobby! So, you don't even know YOUR mother tongue, joke of nature! Wrong. The Amiga is just a computer platform like any other.

It WAS. NOW it's an Amatorial platform. As I've correctly reported.

Try again...
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Certain EAB forum members are paid for software engineering jobs that are outside the Amiga platform's scope

And?
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since the Amiga is not a mainstream target platform.

Guess what: it's not mainstream anymore...

And now tell me: if it's not mainstream, what is Amiga now?

You can give the answer yourself and then check again the Collins definition which I've shared...

@cdimauro

Right, so your best answer to me, when I say you are trolling, is to attack me. Even though I never mentioned anything about my, yours or any others skills in programming. I asked what this "article" is good for.
Well I think there really is no need for any more proof.
The fact that I am not the only one you attack also add to the proof.
But what ever, replying to you just add to your ego, that was my mistake.

_________________

@cdimauro

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Helpful for what? For writing good software (games, in particular)... NOW? Quote: Maybe instead of writing an articles like this, you could approach these people and help them improve their coding skills or write tutorials or common programming mistakes made on the Amiga platform that you notice. LOL. Wake up! It's 2024! The Amiga time is OVER! That's pure hobby since DECADES and you pretend to help people writing NEW games... NOW?!?

Dude.. you literally say it was a forum post on EAB that prompted you to write this article, because of the bad programming advise, that where you could have posted a bit of helpful correction rather than this article, but what ever.

_________________
AmigaNG, YouTube, LeaveReality Studio

@cdimauro

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Understood?

What can I possibly say... you leave me nothing to prove.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@cdimauro

Bad software? yes it exists everywhere.

Bad demo programmers?

They made their demos for a limited type of computers, I can't blame them if an A500 demo refuse to work on an A4000. The demos cost nothing they where free, I got what I paid for.


Bad game programmers?

Some of them wrote their games as if the Amiga would never change, stuff a 16MHz accelerator in an A500 and some of them might stop working. It took some time for them to learn about keeping this in mind. Most of them did after turbo cards and fastmem became a thing on most Amigas. The major titles worked without problems when they where published later.

Games are aging quit fast, I was told (from a developer) that they must return the costs in the first 3-6 month after it the market was flooded with cracked version. So I can't blame most developers for acting fast and neglecting future Amiga developments.


Bad application programmers?

Most applications programmed in the early Amiga years came without proper usage of the Amiga GUI. Things where in a crude stage in the early years, compilers where sold as CLI tool with MicroMemacs as Editor, when the tools that where necessary for a user friendly GUI where available, major companies had left the Amiga market or just saw it as a 2nd level market not worth to do some major investments. There are reason why a lot of those compilers, 3D renderer, photo editors, text processors, spreadsheet programs, video editors only existed for a limited time or moved to other platforms. It wasn't a decision by the programmers it was driven by the companies behind them and I can't blame them.

@Yssing

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Yssing wrote: @cdimauro Right, so your best answer to me, when I say you are trolling, is to attack me.

Wrong. Here are the FACTS:

YOU - Can't I ask why you need to troll again

ME - First of all, you've to prove that I was trolling. I'm preparing other popcorns for this...
Second, "again" means that it already happened at least another time. Care to PROVE this/those as well?

So, I've simply (!) asked to prove that I'm trolling, which you clearly have never done. Logical conclusion: there was no attack.

Beside that, I've asked another question regarding the again, that you have not answered.

NET RESULT: you INVENTED three (THREE) things to discredit me.
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Even though I never mentioned anything about my, yours or any others skills in programming. I asked what this "article" is good for.

Again, let's take a look at the FACTS:

YOU - Dude, Why?

Which, written in this way and in this context, has the more or less the meaning of: "why did you make this mess?"

Because and regarding the article I've already written a small abstract at the beginning of the thread:

The Amiga computers not only had the misfortune to have had bad management and a bad technical department from the parent company, but also a host of equally incompetent programmers who muddied the platform with badly written software that created quite a few problems, especially when it came to video games (not to mention the famous demos that circulated).

So, it talks about such bad programmers.

What else would you have liked to see written?
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Well I think there really is no need for any more proof.

That's what YOU think, but I'm sorry for you: it's still missing. All my questions are still there and left unanswered.

You can write whatever you want, but... talk is cheap: FACTs matter, and you're still missing them.
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The fact that I am not the only one you attack also add to the proof.

No, that's simply (!) a very well known logical fallacy: the Argumentum ad populum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for 'appeal to the people') is a fallacious argument which is based on claiming a truth or affirming something is good or correct because many people think so.

Argumentum ad populum is a type of informal fallacy, specifically a fallacy of relevance, and is similar to an argument from authority (argumentum ad verecundiam). It uses an appeal to the beliefs, tastes, or values of a group of people, stating that because a certain opinion or attitude is held by a majority, or even everyone, it is therefore correct.

Appeals to popularity are common in commercial advertising that portrays products as desirable because they are used by many people or associated with popular sentiments instead of communicating the merits of the products themselves.

In short: it doesn't matter how many people can say one thing. What are important, again, are the FACTS, and only them.

Specifically, I was attacked in some comments, and... I've reacted. As it can be seen by chronologically reading such comments.
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But what ever, replying to you just add to your ego, that was my mistake.

Your mistake was and is that you never proved that I've written something wrong: you only complained, also inventing things about me, and that's it.

Now you want to exit from the discussion that YOU have started. No problem, that's fine for me, but the above FACTS remain to show how it went.

@amigang

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amigang wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Helpful for what? For writing good software (games, in particular)... NOW? Quote: Maybe instead of writing an articles like this, you could approach these people and help them improve their coding skills or write tutorials or common programming mistakes made on the Amiga platform that you notice. LOL. Wake up! It's 2024! The Amiga time is OVER! That's pure hobby since DECADES and you pretend to help people writing NEW games... NOW?!? Dude.. you literally say it was a forum post on EAB that prompted you to write this article, because of the bad programming advise,

To be more precise, this topic was already in my backlog since long time, but when I've seen the thread on EAB I took the chance to talk about it, since it was a perfect example from which to start from.

So, when I've completed the last series of articles, I've written this.

BTW, in the past I've already talked about it here: you can search the discussions which I had with kolla (particularly) and Hammer (where I've brought the "State of the Art" demo example and shown how and why it was badily coded).
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that where you could have posted a bit of helpful correction rather than this article, but what ever.

I'm not an EAB member and I never planned to be: I don't like its "moderation". There are too many fanatics.

Anyway, I've a technical blog where I'm writing articles since almost two decades, so it doesn't make sense to write something on another place only this time.

@kolla

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kolla wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Understood? What can I possibly say... you leave me nothing to prove.

As usual: you never proved anything, and you continue with this long track of failures.

Dreaming, like talk, is cheap...

Note: I've cited you on the previous comment, since we've already extensively talked about the same topic. And same lack of knowledge and trolling from your side, of course: because you don't miss any opportunity to attack me and... show your big ignorance.

@OneTimer1

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OneTimer1 wrote: @cdimauro Bad software? yes it exists everywhere.

Right.
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Bad demo programmers? They made their demos for a limited type of computers, I can't blame them if an A500 demo refuse to work on an A4000. The demos cost nothing they where free, I got what I paid for.

Already discussed with vox about this point: they created demos for the "Amiga". And without any description of requirements like: "it only works on Amiga with Slow ram at $C00000", for example.

You inserted the floppy on some Amiga and... kaboom: you get the usual Guru Meditation.
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Bad game programmers? Some of them wrote their games as if the Amiga would never change, stuff a 16MHz accelerator in an A500 and some of them might stop working. It took some time for them to learn about keeping this in mind. Most of them did after turbo cards and fastmem became a thing on most Amigas. The major titles worked without problems when they where published later.

Accelerators and fast mem expansions were already available with the Amiga 1000 (as I've said, even the 68010 was a cheap drop-in replacement for the 68000) and the first edition of the Amiga Hardware Reference Manual dates 1986.

So, if you get paid for developing such games, you should know the situation and have the book (otherwise, how you developed the game? By reading some example on magazines?). You also likely had a better Amiga configuration (more memory, hard drive) for developing the games.
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Games are aging quit fast, I was told (from a developer) that they must return the costs in the first 3-6 month after it the market was flooded with cracked version. So I can't blame most developers for acting fast and neglecting future Amiga developments.

This doesn't justify them: it was possible to write games which work on any Amiga model.

In fact, many games worked/works. I don't think that their developers used magic wands for getting this result.
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Bad application programmers? Most applications programmed in the early Amiga years came without proper usage of the Amiga GUI. Things where in a crude stage in the early years, compilers where sold as CLI tool with MicroMemacs as Editor, when the tools that where necessary for a user friendly GUI where available, major companies had left the Amiga market or just saw it as a 2nd level market not worth to do some major investments. There are reason why a lot of those compilers, 3D renderer, photo editors, text processors, spreadsheet programs, video editors only existed for a limited time or moved to other platforms. It wasn't a decision by the programmers it was driven by the companies behind them and I can't blame them.

Applications were much, much easier to develop and had tons of documentation and examples (and guidelines as well).

So, it's even worse in this case if they have written applications with bad practices.

@OneTimer1

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OneTimer1 wrote: Games are aging quit fast, I was told (from a developer) that they must return the costs in the first 3-6 month after it the market was flooded with cracked version. So I can't blame most developers for acting fast and neglecting future Amiga developments.

Sadly by the time the Amiga arrived a culture of piracy was well established in the home computer scene. It pretty much destroyed the games market in New Zealand because it took months to ship games here, while cracked games would be downloaded overnight via modem. By the time dealers got them on the shelves, everybody in the scene already had a copy.

Not only did this severely reduce the sales life of games - limiting the effort that could be spent on development, it also created an arms race of increasingly sophisticated copy protection schemes that further reduced compatibility.

The real 'plague' was millions of Amiga fans who didn't appreciate (or care about) the impact of their immoral activities. Ironically this helped sell Amiga hardware - until it didn't. It encouraged the development of games that were sold on hype rather than optimized design. Outrun is the classic example - selling hugely on the name alone. Every game like this damaged the Amiga's reputation a bit, until by the early 90's fans were getting tired of mediocre games and developers were wondering how they could justify continuing to support the Amiga. The parasites were killing the host.

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Bad application programmers? Most applications programmed in the early Amiga years came without proper usage of the Amiga GUI. Things where in a crude stage in the early years, compilers where sold as CLI tool with MicroMemacs as Editor...

To be fair, most developers were used to CLI tools, which the Amiga's multiasking GUI made a lot more convenient. A bigger problem in the early days was how crude some of those tools were.

I came from the Amstrad CPC where I enjoyed using an integrated editor/assembler/debugger, so going to a CLI based environment was a retrograde step. In 1988 I bought the book 'Amiga Machine Language' from Abacus, which included the AssemPro integrated editor/assembler/debugger. It was a bit buggy though, so in 1990 I bought Hisoft Devpac and CygnusEd, going back to using separate tools for each job - only this time they were much better tools!

IMO the main annoyance for application programming was the OS itself. Until V1.2 it was quite buggy. It also was (and still is) quite 'brittle', with few checks so it's easy to accidentally produce code that makes the system unstable and/or has latent bugs. But the worst thing is that many necessary functions were either not complete or simply didn't exist.

Up until KS2 there was no standard file requester, so developers had to 'roll their own' with varying success, or simply not bother (eg. Amiga BASIC). Simple things like disabling and enabling a gadget didn't work (hatching not removed when enabled), and string gadgets didn't pass control characters through. Developers got around limitations using various 'hacks' that broke when KS2 arrived.

KS2 added some useful things, but had its own issues. Even the 'trivial' changing of the default Workbench colors was a problem. Allowing the user to choose default system fonts in any size was another. Developing applications that worked properly on all Amigas just became a lot harder. Commodore's answer to this was to discourage support for 1.x, dropping the A500 and replacing it with A500+ and A600. This decision was driven by the engineers who didn't appreciate the value of the existing user base.

Make your app KS2+ only and you just eliminated 90% of the potential market. That might be OK for high-end apps that rich fans will buy a new Amiga to run, but you miss out on all those users who would enjoy eg. a better word processor than Kind Words. OTOH most of them would just pirate it, so you might not get that many more sales.

@bhabbott

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bhabbott wrote: ... from the Amstrad CPC where I enjoyed using an integrated editor/assembler/debugger, so going to a CLI based environment was a retrograde step.

Just imagine something like Turbo Pascal, the integrated IDE made progress much faster especially for newbies, that's one of the reasons why I think selling the Amiga without BASIC was a bad idea.

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bhabbott wrote: Up until KS2 there was no standard file requester, so developers had to 'roll their own' with varying success, ...

Thing like GadTools box came to late and they cost extra money, you couldn't simply buy an A500 and start programming, you didn't even knew what you had to buy (or pirate) as a beginner.