Click Here
home features news forums classifieds faqs links search
6090 members 
Amiga Q&A /  Free for All /  Emulation /  Gaming / (Latest Posts)
Login

Nickname

Password

Lost Password?

Don't have an account yet?
Register now!

Support Amigaworld.net
Your support is needed and is appreciated as Amigaworld.net is primarily dependent upon the support of its users.
Donate

Menu
Main sections
» Home
» Features
» News
» Forums
» Classifieds
» Links
» Downloads
Extras
» OS4 Zone
» IRC Network
» AmigaWorld Radio
» Newsfeed
» Top Members
» Amiga Dealers
Information
» About Us
» FAQs
» Advertise
» Polls
» Terms of Service
» Search

IRC Channel
Server: irc.amigaworld.net
Ports: 1024,5555, 6665-6669
SSL port: 6697
Channel: #Amigaworld
Channel Policy and Guidelines

Who's Online
22 crawler(s) on-line.
 95 guest(s) on-line.
 0 member(s) on-line.



You are an anonymous user.
Register Now!
 agami:  7 mins ago
 DiscreetFX:  29 mins ago
 Hammer:  31 mins ago
 a3000d/t:  1 hr 12 mins ago
 emilianojay:  2 hrs 19 mins ago
 CharlotteMurphy:  3 hrs 9 mins ago
 lewac:  3 hrs 16 mins ago
 tonyadams:  3 hrs 20 mins ago
 rosebl22:  3 hrs 25 mins ago
 rickrode:  3 hrs 50 mins ago

/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga General Chat
      /  what is wrong with 68k
Register To Post

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 Next Page )
PosterThread
Kronos 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 7-Jan-2025 17:41:29
#361 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2713
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:

A1200's production wouldn't match A500's production scale due to 1 million A600 units' debt spiral and unproven Philippines A1200 assembly capability.



So in short, C= was running on fumes barely capable of keeping up enough cashflow to get the few A1200 produced they did.

Any delay, any increase in the BOM or any extra development cost would have killed them right then and there in 92.

The A1200 was designed with a price point in mind, which simple had no room for any CPU upgrade or splitting the RAM into 2 banks.
Not even if each had been 10$.

The A1200 as it was was o.k. but once you added an HD (IMO much more important than any RAM or CPU upgrade) it wasn't competitive against any PC.
So they did sell them to existing Amiga users who would upgrade anyways or into markets that were hypersensitive on pricing (eastern Europe).

For everything else to little to late.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
OneTimer1 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 7-Jan-2025 20:22:26
#362 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 1146
From: Germany

@Kronos

Quote:


The A1200 as it was was o.k. but once you added an HD (IMO much more important than any RAM or CPU upgrade) it wasn't competitive against any PC.
So they did sell them to existing Amiga users who would upgrade anyways or into markets that were hypersensitive on pricing (eastern Europe).

For everything else to little to late.


- HD was absolute necessary, a 3,5" HD would have been cheaper but needed a real desktop case; + 10-20$

- 2 MB additional FastRAM would have been nice and would have given that system a huge speed improvement using the 8-Bit mode; + 20-40$


But every little add-on will add something to the price for the end user product until it can't compete with 'real PCs' running games like Wolfenstein.

That's why I started a thread called Missed opportunity to improve the Amiga and keeping it cheap but people didn't realize the clam C= was in, it would had needed a lot of money for really improved products, maybe if they would haven't developed flops like A600/C65 this would have freed money for the development of a better AGA ...

But that's the typical "what if game" and even Apple ran into problems.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
agami 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 8-Jan-2025 0:48:19
#363 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1898
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Kronos

Quote:
Kronos wrote:

So in short, C= was running on fumes barely capable of keeping up enough cashflow to get the few A1200 produced they did.

Any delay, any increase in the BOM or any extra development cost would have killed them right then and there in 92.

I agree with this view.


Quote:
The A1200 as it was was o.k. but once you added an HD (IMO much more important than any RAM or CPU upgrade) it wasn't competitive against any PC.

I disagree with this view.

Against any PC?

I purchased a A1200HD with 40MB HDD at the end of 1992 for $1,199 AUD.
A PC at that price would undoubtedly have a CPU with more raw power, but the PC platform itself was less capable at that price point.
Putting aside the benefit of the A1200HD being able to run all my existing software, it was a multi-tasking multi-media wonder. Yes, the Amiga had been that since 1985, but it was the introduction of AGA and the relative affordability of a HDD that made these characteristics more commonly appreciated.

Whereas, MS DOS + Windows 3.x sucked major balls from a UX aspect until the combo got a major update in Win 95.

For a new computer user, one who is not interested in multi-tasking or multi-media, during 1993 the PC was the obvious choice. But for people who had been running a 68k Mac or an Amiga since the late '80s, the PC in late '92 and pretty much up until 1995 was a pile of junk.

Last edited by agami on 08-Jan-2025 at 11:31 PM.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
matthey 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 8-Jan-2025 2:13:08
#364 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2456
From: Kansas

OneTimer1 Quote:

That's why I started a thread called Missed opportunity to improve the Amiga and keeping it cheap but people didn't realize the clam C= was in, it would had needed a lot of money for really improved products, maybe if they would haven't developed flops like A600/C65 this would have freed money for the development of a better AGA ...


Commodore was improving financially in the late 1980s partially because of the Amiga 500 but then came a series of flops and Bill Sydnes delaying AGA.

1990 C64GS
1991 C65 cancelled after expensive chipset development
1991 CDTV
1991 ~8% drop in PC sales (https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-01-21-fi-716-story.html)
1992 Amiga 600

C64 demand finally crashed and was discontinued. Commodity PCs may have reached negative profit margins for Commodore. Low end Amigas still had some demand and margin but Commodore had invested in the PC including PC engineers under Sydnes and C65 chipset development while Amiga chipset development languished. Commodore could not pivot back to the profitable Amiga fast enough as chipset development takes time. The lack of AA+ likely sunk Commodore.

1. 28/57MHz chipset clock speed would have doubled or quadrupled chipset memory bandwidth from AGA reducing the need for fast memory and allowing faster CPUs while saving an oscillator
2. Increased chip ram limit up to 8 MiB allows unified memory without split chip/fast memory cost
3. 800x600x8 non-Interlace 72 Hz refresh allows cheaper SVGA monitors without flicker
4. fewer chips and cooler CMOS for cost, cooling and power advantages
5. other advantages including chunky, faster blitter, HD floppy control and buffered serial

AA+ would have made the Amiga much more competitive. Failing to get AA+ out earlier was a major factor in Commodore's death. Commodore had plans for AA+ to become the foundation for an Amiga SoC with Commodore docs suggesting a $100 USD reduction in Amiga costs which is a game changer. Commodore still had enough money to produce and launch the CD32 in 1993 but it did not offer enough value without a 68EC030&AA+@28MHz and 3-4MiB of memory (AGA was 68EC020&AGA@14MHz limited to 2MiB of chip memory with a faster CPU requiring a 2nd oscillator and fast mem requiring more logic both increasing the cost).

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Hammer 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 8-Jan-2025 7:15:19
#365 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6171
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:

C64 demand finally crashed and was discontinued. Commodity PCs may have reached negative profit margins for Commodore. Low end Amigas still had some demand and margin but Commodore had invested in the PC including PC engineers under Sydnes and C65 chipset development while Amiga chipset development languished. Commodore could not pivot back to the profitable Amiga fast enough as chipset development takes time. The lack of AA+ likely sunk Commodore.


Commodore The Final Years book contains criticisms against Commodore West Germany's PC design.

Jeff Frank's job and his team was to cost-reduce Commodore West Germany's PC designs. Jeff Frank becomes the leader of the Commodore PC group. Commodore PC group had an excess of 386 inventory when 486 was released in April 1989.

Pennsylvania's Amiga group has cost-reduced Commodore West Germany's 1986 A2000 design as A2000-CR or B2000.

Commodore's big box Amiga's cost reduction wasn't good enough since they lacked proper economies of scale and sufficient integration.

Big box Amigas didn't tap the modularized "Amiga on the card" concept that is being mass-produced in the Far East.

Meanwhile, 1990s PC motherboards from the Far East are being mass-produced with chip integration.

Commodore Canada/Amitech A2200 clone tapped the mass-produced CD32 SBC that is attached to the Agent 88 board to complete A4000-like functionality.


After June 1991,
1. Jeff Frank has Amiga group administration. Bill Sydnes and Jeff Frank are responsible for A300(A600), AA600(A1200), ECS A1000Jr/A2200, A3400(A4000) and "more than 6th months" AA beta testing delay. In Feb 1992, Mehdi Ali overrides Sydnes/Frank's pro-ECS direction with a direct order to build an A500-type machine with AA.

Jeff Frank argued for low-end Amiga and mid-to-high PC product stack.

2. Jeff Porter has multi-media group administration. The multi-media group is Irving Gould's pet project since he believed VCD would be a revolutionary product. Gould departed from Amiga's core mission i.e. delivering a good interactive game experience in the value segment. Gould's direction wasted the budget for a 40Mhz custom RISC MIPS-X SoC for VCD.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Hammer 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 8-Jan-2025 7:27:08
#366 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6171
From: Australia

@Kronos

Quote:
So in short, C= was running on fumes barely capable of keeping up enough cashflow to get the few A1200 produced they did.

Any delay, any increase in the BOM or any extra development cost would have killed them right then and there in 92.

The A1200 was designed with a price point in mind, which simple had no room for any CPU upgrade or splitting the RAM into 2 banks.
Not even if each had been 10$.

The A1200 as it was was o.k. but once you added an HD (IMO much more important than any RAM or CPU upgrade) it wasn't competitive against any PC.
So they did sell them to existing Amiga users who would upgrade anyways or into markets that were hypersensitive on pricing (eastern Europe).

For everything else to little to late.

One problem, Mehdi Ali threw away the higher profit margin potential from 166,000 A1200 units for a lower profit 166,000 CD32 units.

A1200 had a "healthy profit margin", hence there was room to maneuver.

3D bias 16-bit RISC-based SuperFX's cost is about $10 per unit.

From the post Commodore bankruptcy PDF, A1200 has a $66 profit margin. This healthy profit margin was thrown away with CD32 production.

Reference
https://archive.org/details/commodore-post-bankruptcy/page/n41/mode/2up

PS; memory price is cheaper during 1992 e.g. $45 for four 256kx16 SOJ chips at 100,000 units contract price.

During 1993, A1200's $50 of $66 per unit profit is used to pay back SCI's old debt.

Commodore Internationa's A1200 USD292 sell price would be sold to Commodore national subsidiaries e.g. slap on an additional USD60 as an example. Retail has USD 499 to USD 550 price range.


Healthy Commodore UK refuses to bail out Commodore International's old debt to SCI. In April 1994, Commodore International was declared bankrupt.


From Commodore the Inside Story - The Untold Tale of a Computer Giant by David John Pleasance
Quote:

THE SCI AMIGA 1200 MANUFACTURING SAGA

In 1992, a Scottish company called SCI started to build
Amiga 1200s for Commodore International. The
manufacturing contract was issued out of Commodore
Hong Kong, who bought the machines from SCI and sold
them to Commodore Electronics Limited (CEL) in
Switzerland, who would then sell them on to the various
Commodore entities around the world. But by the end of
the year, Commodore International was running out of
cash and ended up short-paying SCI by $20 million.

Early in 1993, Commodore notified the Securities and
Exchange Commission that its financial future was at risk
and therefore that Commodore UK could be deemed to
be trading while insolvent (without a parent company
Commodore UK could not survive, and if there is a
material risk of failure then you are deemed to be
insolvent). The directors of a company in this condition
become personally liable to the creditors for any act that
puts the assets of the company at risk.

With the inventory of Amiga 1200s dwindling, Mehdi
Ali proposed a deal with SCI to build 400,000 units of the
computer for Commodore UK, who in turn would pay
them directly for the cost of the units plus $50 per
machine to cover the old debt. Payment would be made as
the inventory sold through.

We among UK management had not been involved in
the negotiations and had no knowledge of their goings on,
and the situation turned out to be a double-edged sword.
One day in March, a copy of the contract between SCI
and Commodore International arrived in our office. We
were stunned and sent it on to our liquidation counsel for
advice. A few days later we got a reply.
‘Don’t worry about it,’ they said.
‘Why not?’ we asked. ‘Does it not bind Commodore UK
to these actions?’

They told us it didn’t. ‘Commodore UK is not a party to
the contract – legally, we don’t have to follow it.
Commodore UK’s legal purchase of the Amigas from
Commodore Switzerland creates an intercompany
liability. How you pay that liability is up to you and Mehdi
Ali – just make sure you do not pay more than that debt.’

During the third quarter of 1993, new machines
started arriving from Scotland, invoices started arriving
from Switzerland and we started remitting cash to SCI.

As Christmas approached, Mehdi called and told us to
send some money to the US. We replied that the money
was promised to SCI.

‘Let me worry about that,’ he said. ‘Just send me the
money.’

As we knew we were not a party to the SCI contract,
we sent Mehdi the money and credited the balance on
our intercompany account.

Early the following year, we sent more money to SCI –
and also more money to Commodore US. By February, we
had completely paid off the intercompany debt for the
machines we had purchased. Out of courtesy, we called
SCI to say we would not be sending them any more
money. The proverbial hit the fan.

We were personally threatened by SCI that our
professional reputations would be ruined, that we would
never work in tech again and that we would be held
personally accountable.

One Sunday morning, Colin Proudfoot, our legal
director at the time, received a phone call from Mehdi
and Gene Sapp, the president of SCI, and Mehdi told
Colin he had to pay SCI more money.

Colin said that he couldn’t because there was no debt
to pay the money against.

‘Send it anyway!’ was Mehdi’s reply.
Colin again refused, telling them that paying money
without debt in the circumstances Commodore was in was
illegal.
‘Make it legal!’ Mehdi barked.

Colin, aware of the personal liability he was under if he
conceded, offered to resign. This would have left
Commodore UK without a legal director and would
probably have required that someone in the US step in
and take on the position (and potential liability).

Colin offered that if anyone could come up with a UK
counsel’s opinion that deemed such a payment legal then
he would happily make it. They hung up unhappily.

On the 19th of April 1994, Commodore International
went into liquidation, but Commodore UK continued to
trade. SCI started to harass Commodore UK’s customers,
demanding that they pay any moneys owed to
Commodore UK directly to SCI. Naturally, they all
refused.



Commodore UK is healthy enough to argue for uprated A1200/CD32 specs and David Pleasance has argued for upgraded A1200/CD32 bundles and he only needs the go-ahead from Mehdi Ali.


After Commodore UK paid its intercompany debts, Commodore UK refused to bail out Commodore International which pushed Commodore International into voluntary liquidation.


Other transnational companies have arbitrary Intellectual Property debts applied to national subsidiaries as a workaround.

The contradictory narrative disappears when Commodore's corporate structure is factored in.

With the Philippines' production delays, Mehdi Ali decided to outsource A1200's production to SCI-UK in Scotland.

Mehdi Ali shouldn't have HK production to the unproven Philippines production. The reason for Philippine low-cost labor production move was killed by the SCI-UK Scotland out source.

Mehdi Ali couldn't run a transnational company.

Last edited by Hammer on 08-Jan-2025 at 08:36 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Jan-2025 at 08:14 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Jan-2025 at 08:04 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Jan-2025 at 08:00 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Jan-2025 at 07:47 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Jan-2025 at 07:29 AM.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Kronos 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 8-Jan-2025 9:37:28
#367 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2713
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:

From the post Commodore bankruptcy PDF, A1200 has a $66 profit margin. This healthy profit margin was thrown away with CD32 production.


a) no that is NOT a healthy profit margin. At least not for a product just released that has yet to recoup any development cost.

b) the A1200 pricing was unattractive for the general market as it.

As for the rest, no Mr Pleasance was no messiah, he was just as incompetent at actually running the business as everybody else in C=.

Sure he knew how to boost his numbers at the expense of other subsidiaries and he for sure knows how to sell his role post mortem, but thats really all.

Could've would've should've have not doing the CD32 or fully focussing on the CD32 earlier on saved C=? We will never know for sure, but all evidence points to them being in a death spiral at least since 91.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Kronos 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 8-Jan-2025 9:45:52
#368 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2713
From: Unknown

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:
@Kronos

Against any PC?



Against any PC that was sold at a price point close enough to be consideration.

As for "less capable" that really depends on your point of view, but what could the A1200 (even with an HD) really do better?

Many of the older games didn't work, and the few AGA titles that existed in late 92/early 93 were just same old same old with slightly better GFX. Applications were mostly amateur level.
On the other hand you lets say a 286 that could run "industry standard" apps and a PC games market that really started to take of around that time, often with titles/genres that never made it to Amiga or only in diminished ports.

Hence anything Amiga from 1990 onwards really only sold to people already invested in the platform, niche use cases (video) and people on a supertight budget.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Hammer 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 8-Jan-2025 12:17:10
#369 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6171
From: Australia

@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote:
@Hammer

a) no that is NOT a healthy profit margin. At least not for a product just released that has yet to recoup any development cost.


From Commodore the Inside Story -The Untold Tale of a Computer Giant by David John Pleasance

Meanwhile our UK-based Consumer Products business
was in a very healthy position – we had taken massive
orders for the Amiga 1200, scheduled for specific volume
deliveries from September through to Christmas from all
the major retailers. It was a profitable product with a
healthy margin for Commodore at both corporate head
office and in the UK.

Per unit basis, A1200 has a healthy profit margin.

There's not enough A1200 production to cover old debts from the PC clone and A600 debacles.

Commodore national subsidiaries purchase their Amigas from Commodore International, hence Commodore UK adds their profit margin before selling them to the retail channel.

AGA's production target goals for the 1993 year are in Commodore - The Final Years book.

Commodore International couldn't produce enough AGA units.

Commodore International's last report's USD8 million loss caused owners to shut down the business. They were close to breaking even.

Quote:

@Kronos
b) the A1200 pricing was unattractive for the general market as it.

Commodore International couldn't produce enough A1200.

As an SNES strong 2D competitor with an open desktop computer feature, the A1200 is okay.

Don't expect 386DX33/386DX40/486SX-25 with 4MB RAM PC competitor.

AGA wasn't released early enough to build a critical mass install base and the existing full 32-bit CPU-equipped Amigas with OCS/ECS install base couldn't join the AGA install base via CD32 size card upgrade. Commodore management rejected the modular Amiga design.

The major difference between A3000/030 and A4000/030 is just AA Lisa and color DAC. AA Alice is just an ECS Agnus 2MB variant. The same CPU 7MB/s 32bit Chip RAM cycle access.

Quote:

@Kronos

As for the rest, no Mr Pleasance was no messiah, he was just as incompetent at actually running the business as everybody else in C=.

Be specific on "he (Pleasance) was just as incompetent at actually running the business as everybody else in C=" i.e. prove it.

Commodore UK is financially healthy and profitable.

Commodore Canada, Commodore Germany, Commodore Netherlands, and Commodore UK survived Commodore International's April 1994 bust.

The SCI-UK's old debts with Commodore International are done by Mehdi Ali.

Quote:

@Kronos
Sure he knew how to boost his numbers at the expense of other subsidiaries and he for sure knows how to sell his role post mortem, but thats really all.

That's a false narrative.

Reminder, Commodore UK has the strongest Amiga market.

Factor in UK corporate law i.e. read my cited quotes from Commodore the Inside Story book.

Colin already gave hints for Ali i.e. money transfer must be matched with debt e.g. Charge Intellectual Property liability on Commodore UK.

Ali wasn't smart enough to navigate a transnational company's multiple legal entity structure and multiple national corporate laws. That's the problem with "who you know" without proven merit and skills.

Last edited by Hammer on 08-Jan-2025 at 12:35 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Jan-2025 at 12:19 PM.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Kronos 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 8-Jan-2025 12:44:12
#370 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2713
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Quote:


Reminder, Commodore UK has the strongest Amiga market.



Not even close to the truth.

C= UK mostly sold low end Amigas (A500 and later A1200) while boosting their numbers by funneling non UK sales through them.

They may have been "profitable" and "financially healthy" as a pure box shifting distribution outlet with 0 R+D or manufacture but thats the easy part and far far from what would have been needed to fully run the show.
Even more if that "show" would have been anymore than running down inventory and reproducing outdated HW (aka what ESCOM did).

You really need to get it into your head that those books are not historical documents but merely fan fiction combined with former executives chiming in whitewashing their part in the overall failure.
Same is true for Petro's (or any other) book.

Think about, if C= UK really had cash at hand when it was needed elsewhere than that is clear evidence that the whole setup was foul and that DP merely gamed the system to his own benefit.

Whether he shares 90% or 0.1% of the blame is irrelevant he was at least complicit.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Hammer 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 8-Jan-2025 12:57:16
#371 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6171
From: Australia

@Kronos

Quote:
Against any PC that was sold at a price point close enough to be consideration.

As for "less capable" that really depends on your point of view, but what could the A1200 (even with an HD) really do better?


I wouldn't be designing an AA600 size case with an uncompetitive laptop 2.5-inch hard disk consideration. Using pricey laptop components with a pure desktop computer use case is just stupid.

I argued for AA500 price segment with a "zero-sum" competitive desktop 3.5-inch hard disk consideration.

ISA-based 16-bit PCMCIA is useless without Amiga drivers and 16-bit Fast RAM is gimped on full 32-bit 68K. Amiga PCMCIA's byte swap PLL chips add to the BOM cost.

The main purpose for Bridgette is to cost reduce four 3rd party PLL chips and Jeff Frank adds four PLL chips. I rather have a functional Zorro II slot with existing Amiga drivers.

AA500 with a side Zorro II slot could allow for side graphics card upgrades with existing Amiga drivers.

Mass-produced AA500 with an internal 32-bit CPU local edge connector and a side Zorro II slot could expand the market size for Zorro II/Zorro III.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Hammer 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 8-Jan-2025 13:03:45
#372 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6171
From: Australia

@Kronos

Quote:
Not even close to the truth.

You haven't shown any truth.

Quote:

C= UK mostly sold low end Amigas (A500 and later A1200) while boosting their numbers by funneling non UK sales through them.

C= UK's healthy financial state allows it to purchase Amigas from C= INT on behalf of weaker C= national subsidiaries.

You haven't factored in UK corporate law.

Quote:

They may have been "profitable" and "financially healthy" as a pure box shifting distribution outlet with 0 R+D or manufacture but thats the easy part and far far from what would have been needed to fully run the show.

You haven't factored in UK corporate law.

Quote:

You really need to get it into your head that those books are not historical documents but merely fan fiction combined with former executives chiming in whitewashing their part in the overall failure.

You need to factor in UK corporate law.


Quote:

Think about, if C= UK really had cash at hand when it was needed elsewhere than that is clear evidence that the whole setup was foul and that DP merely gamed the system to his own benefit.

False. You need to factor in UK corporate law.

Commodore Canada purchased 65,000 CD32 SBC for Amitech's A2200 clone.

Tapping "Far East" CD32's mass production, Commodore Canada/Amitech's cost reduction allows the A2200-2 clone to have 40Mhz 68030 + 4MB Fast RAM + 420 MB HDD for the price of Commodore Germany's A4000/EC030 25Mhz@ USD 1500.

Commodore Canada/Amitech's action was too late. It's a good idea to use "Far East" for big box Amigas.

I would have purchased Commodore Canada/Amitech's A2200-1 big box for CAD1199 (close to AUD).



Last edited by Hammer on 08-Jan-2025 at 01:19 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Jan-2025 at 01:10 PM.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Kronos 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 8-Jan-2025 13:11:56
#373 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2713
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Yeah yeah, all decisions made in 1990/91, some of them may even have seemed smart without the benefit of hindsight.

But none of your "ideas" would have changed the fundamentals:
- Amiga (1000) sales in 85/86 were insufficient to fund proper further development
- Amiga 500/2000 sales in 88-91 generated to low profits to fast track development
- AGA Amigas in 92/93 were too weak to generate sufficient sales (which was kinda hidden by cash flow problems suffocating production to an even lower number).

-> C= would have needed a massive cash influx in 1990 (at the latest) to avoid going down one way or the other.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Kronos 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 8-Jan-2025 13:20:18
#374 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2713
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Quote:


You need to factor in UK corporate law.



Nope, if it really was of any relevance then only because the whole thing had been setup wrong.
Trapping profits in an unproductive subsidiary is just stupid (and mostly done to "optimize" taxes).

As for that Amitech thing, even IF it had worked and IF there had been a market at those prices it still wouldn't be a win as the whole idea only made sense as a way to sell surplus CD32 mobos at a loss.
So pretty much what Petro did with Magic Pack A1200s after ESCOM failed.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Hammer 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 8-Jan-2025 13:41:53
#375 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6171
From: Australia

@Kronos

Quote:

Amiga (1000) sales in 85/86 were insufficient to fund proper further development

But none of your "ideas" would have changed the fundamentals:
- Amiga (1000) sales in 85/86 were insufficient to fund proper further development


Healthy C64 sales are funding Amiga's R&D.

The PC also has an expensive phase followed by cost-reduction phase.

https://vgamuseum.info/index.php/component/k2/item/1014-ibm-ps2-display-adapter
IBM VGA ISA card wasn't cheap.

https://www.vgamuseum.info/media/k2/items/cache/d197c421d422f5cbf569ea13f09ef700_XL.jpg
1987 era ET3000AX SVGA clone.

https://rubenerd.com/files/2023/tseng-et4000ax@1x.jpg
1993 ET4000AX SVGA clone.

https://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/companies/item/461-tseng-et4000ax
Starting from 1989, various ET4000AX with progressive cost reduction improvements.

A1000's OCS wasn't suited for Apple Mac's stable business high-resolution mode.

Mac passed the 1 million install base in 1987.
Amiga reached about 600K install base in 1987.


Quote:

- Amiga 500/2000 sales in 88-91 generated to low profits to fast track development

That's the wrong narrative.

- R&D resources were wasted. C= focus on competing against GVP, C65 chipset R&D distraction, C900 debacle repeated with AMIX, C65 focus 2-micron fabs purchases, excess 386 stock during 486's 1989 release, wasted two C= MMU R&D, (late Motorola 68551 MMU), wasted monochrome ECS Denise, wasted Ranger R&D (canceled mid-1986), wasted ECS Denise debates, wasted A2024 monitor with 5000 unit production scale (token high resolution for OCS) and wasted CDTV distraction.

- Rots with adult entertainment.

- Fake sales flipflop between C= Germany, Poland, and the C= Netherlands.

- Rots with a family relative linked 3rd party repair companies (against C= UK's Kelly Summer).


For RiVA 128, 1996 era NVIDIA is focused on 3D accelerator core business with $5 million lifeline Sega. NVIDIA's early 1990s has received $20 million of venture capital funding.

Commodore UK attracted $25 million of venture capital funding + $25 million from China.

Commodore the Inside Story -The Untold Tale of a Computer Giant book includes Colin Proudfoot's anti-corruption investigation stories in Commodore.


Last edited by Hammer on 08-Jan-2025 at 02:06 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Jan-2025 at 02:01 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Jan-2025 at 01:52 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Jan-2025 at 01:50 PM.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Hammer 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 8-Jan-2025 13:57:31
#376 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6171
From: Australia

@Kronos

Quote:

Nope, if it really was of any relevance then only because the whole thing had been setup wrong.

Nope, you need to factor in UK corporate law and work around it.

Quote:

Trapping profits in an unproductive subsidiary is just stupid (and mostly done to "optimize" taxes).

The UK is not a tax haven.

Quote:

As for that Amitech thing, even IF it had worked and IF there had been a market at those prices it still wouldn't be a win as the whole idea only made sense as a way to sell surplus CD32 mobos at a loss.

How could Amitech's CD32 mobos be a production loss? Prove it.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Kronos 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 8-Jan-2025 21:09:26
#377 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2713
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:

The UK is not a tax haven.



Yep, thats why it was a stupid setup.

Quote:

How could Amitech's CD32 mobos be a production loss? Prove it.


The sat in a warehouse since C= couldn't sell them (read NTSC version blocked for sale in the US by that patent), so thats a loss.

https://bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=19

Look at those specs, basically a smaller version of the Micronik Z3 busboard with a smaller case, a full KBD instead of just a conversion kit and if they are to believed an AGA flickerfixer (lock at the resolutions). Even the small config was either supposed to come with at least basic RAM extension (maybe a SIMM slot on the busboard).
All the development and tooling for what was doomed to be a limited run (since making more CD32 boards was out of the question) and it is more then obvious that they didn't plan to pay retail value for boards that had been collecting dust.

So yeah, those boards were the textbook definition of surplus, unsaleable at the time and deprecating by the minute.

Now on the other hand if you remember how good damn awful all these busboards were especially as soon as they tried anything more than pure non DMA Z2 and look at those prices which are about the same as an A4000/030 when those were available (which also were a bad value), and it's quite clear that the could not have been more than a stop gap measure for a starving market.

Read last minute fire sale that couldn't get through because it would have bypassed creditors who had a rightful claim (which again shows how damn stupid the whole setup was).

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
bhabbott 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 9-Jan-2025 0:46:11
#378 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 509
From: Aotearoa

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:

A1000's OCS wasn't suited for Apple Mac's stable business high-resolution mode.

The A1000 wasn't a Mac? Oh no, it's doomed!

Quote:
Mac passed the 1 million install base in 1987.
Amiga reached about 600K install base in 1987.

The Mac was introduced in January 1984. It had a 68000 CPU running at an effective 6MHz, 128k of RAM which was not expandable, a single display resolution of 512x342 with 1 bitplane that only worked with the built-in built in 9 inch monochrome CRT, single PCM sound channel, and a 400k 3.5" floppy drive - for a retail price of US$2,495.

The Amiga 1000 was announced on July 23 1985, but didn't start shipping until September. It had a 68000 CPU running at 7.1MHz, 256k of RAM (expandable to 512k internally, up to 9MB with external expansion), standard resolutions up to 640x200 noninterlaced and 640x400 interlaced in 16 colors or 320x200/400 in 32 colors (more with overscan) - all TV compatible, 4096 color palette, hardware blitting, sprites and 'split-screen' modes, 4 channels of PCM sound with independent programmable sample rates, and an 880k 3.5" floppy drive. It came with built-in NTSC composite output for use with a TV, and analog RGB. With a high resolution RGB color monitor the retail price was US$1,485, US$1000 less than the Mac.

By the and of 1987 the Mac had been on the market for 4 years, while the Amiga had only been out for a little over 2 years - with the more popular 'consumer' A500 model priced at US$699 only being out for 3 months.

The Amiga wasn't a Mac and the Mac wasn't an Amiga - they were quite different products targeting different markets. The Mac was a good choice for producing documents for publishing or printing on a laser printer, or for classroom use where the all-in-one design was portable and secure, and that was about it.

The Amiga was a general purpose 'home' computer with the usual expected uses, including exceptional gaming capabilities and an advanced preemptive multitasking GUI OS that was unique in that market. It was the ultimate 'hobbyist' computer and forerunner in the emerging 'multimedia' sphere. But it wasn't a business computer. Most importantly it wasn't IBM compatible, didn't run MS-DOS and didn't have an x86 CPU, making it unattractive to business users. It was targeting home users who weren't concerned about that, and for its multimedia capabilities - especially the accurate NTSC video with genlocking that would make it a favorite for video production companies and TV studios.

So comparing Mac sales to Amiga sales is pointless, though clearly the Mac was not that much further ahead considering it had been on the market for nearly twice as long.

Quote:
- R&D resources were wasted. C= focus on competing against GVP, C65 chipset R&D distraction, C900 debacle repeated with AMIX, C65 focus 2-micron fabs purchases, excess 386 stock during 486's 1989 release, wasted two C= MMU R&D, (late Motorola 68551 MMU), wasted monochrome ECS Denise, wasted Ranger R&D (canceled mid-1986), wasted ECS Denise debates, wasted A2024 monitor with 5000 unit production scale (token high resolution for OCS) and wasted CDTV distraction.

Yes. Commodore had always had that problem. OTOH Apple also 'wasted' R&D on various projects that didn't get anywhere - the Apple IIx, Apple III, Lisa, Copland (which had a budget of US$250 million per year and was partly responsible for Apple losing US$750 million in 1996).

But that's how Commodore had always worked. So long as they had a few profitable products to fund R&D it was fine. Even failed projects provided valuable experience that helped in designing other products. The problem was that after Jack left the company was financially weak, exacerbated by excessive spending on the A1000 at a time when they could ill-afford it. That paid off in the end, but they really needed to focus more on their primary market and avoid being distracted with side projects. The fat got trimmed eventually, but too late to save them.

We shouldn't be surprised that Commodore wasn't run in the most efficient way possible, or that they didn't produce the most amazing products possible marketed in the best way that would ensure their continued success. No company ever has, even those which were the most successful. We probably wouldn't even want that. I mean, they might have done a lot better if they had just stuck to making office furniture, but then we wouldn't have their awesome and interesting computers to play with.

Commodore's 'wasted' R&D was also responsible for the Amigas they did produce, and they are all good. One of the reasons they are so good is that they all have a 68k CPU in them. Despite the large differences between models they are still very much compatible, and able to be enhanced to keep them relevant and interesting. This makes the Amiga one of the best retro computer lines ever, perhaps even the best. Even the 'failed' A1000, A3000, CDTV, CD32 and A600 are cherished because they are just as much Amigas as the more successful A500, A2000 and A1200 - all with an awesome 68k CPU that is a joy to program, along with a unique powerful OS and hardware to keep the interest up. I'm having just as much fun or more programming them today as I did when they were new.

Last edited by bhabbott on 09-Jan-2025 at 12:56 AM.
Last edited by bhabbott on 09-Jan-2025 at 12:55 AM.
Last edited by bhabbott on 09-Jan-2025 at 12:51 AM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
agami 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 9-Jan-2025 1:16:24
#379 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1898
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Kronos

Quote:
Kronos wrote:
@agami

Quote:
agami wrote:
@Kronos

Against any PC?

Against any PC that was sold at a price point close enough to be consideration.

This is a very subjective qualifier, e.g. If a person is 'considering' to drop $1,199 AUD then they might also 'consider' spending upwards of $1,499 AUD.
That's not how demographics and price bracketing work.

Quote:
As for "less capable" that really depends on your point of view, but what could the A1200 (even with an HD) really do better?

I agree. It goes without saying that the quality of 'capability' is subjective and intricately tied to what an individual is attempting to accomplish. If one is attempting to fell a tree, a hatchet would be considered less capable than a full size axe, and the reverse would apply for finer and small chipping work.

The fact remains, that until September of 1995, the MS-DOS + Windows 3.11 sucked at multi-tasking, and required substantial expenditure to make it a multi-media machine.

I had already started adding computer graphics and titles to videos via a genlock on my A500. I was using Final Copy, combined with Deluxe Paint for printing out documentation (dot matrix), and yes I played games. Despite having 3 floppy drives, I was sick of the disk swapping and slowness, that in late 1992 I went into Maxwell Computers to buy a HDD expansion for the A500. It was at that point that the sales manager Lee told me to hold off on buying the HDD expansion, as the A1200 was imminent. Not only did it come with a HDD, but also was better overall.

While it's natural for some software titles written with a previous version of the platform in mind to have issues when running on the new platform, the productivity software and games I had at the time all worked without an issue on the A1200.
Interestingly though, I purchased Deluxe Paint IV AGA and it would frequently crash. I had to wait until EA released an update to use it reliably.

So yes, I was very much a multi-media user. I was not ignorant of the PC platform. I used it at work, and in 1993 I had actually 'computerised' the operations of a local furniture moving company, connecting their five new 486 PCs into a 10base-2 token ring network. I know what these things cost, even when purchased from lower priced local beige-box assemblers.

A friend of mine sold his full Amiga 500 setup in early 1993 to go all-in on a 486DX2-66 setup, and was nevertheless blown away by the multi-tasking and multi-media capabilities of the A1200HD. At a time when holding down a mouse button could lock up a running process in MS-DOS.

Quote:
On the other hand you lets say a 286 that could run "industry standard" apps and a PC games market that really started to take of around that time

Which is why I wrote
Quote:
agami wrote:
Quote:
For a new computer user, one who is not interested in multi-tasking or multi-media, during 1993 the PC was the obvious choice.

Which is to say that it would be much more accurate to say, and more agreeable, that the A1200HD was not competitive with most PCs in all but niche multi-media use cases.


Last edited by agami on 09-Jan-2025 at 01:32 AM.
Last edited by agami on 09-Jan-2025 at 01:31 AM.
Last edited by agami on 09-Jan-2025 at 01:30 AM.
Last edited by agami on 09-Jan-2025 at 01:20 AM.
Last edited by agami on 09-Jan-2025 at 01:18 AM.
Last edited by agami on 09-Jan-2025 at 01:16 AM.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Hammer 
Re: what is wrong with 68k
Posted on 9-Jan-2025 1:57:14
#380 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6171
From: Australia

@Kronos

Quote:

The sat in a warehouse since C= couldn't sell them (read NTSC version blocked for sale in the US by that patent), so thats a loss.

CD32 wasn't blocked in Canada. A2200 is not "CD32" as a retail product form.

USA's Amiga World 1993 magazines still show A1200s being offered for sale.


The US gaming desktop computer is biased towards 3D texture-mapped experience in 1993 i.e. Doom wasn't the only 1993 PC game with a 3D texture map experience.

In 1993, US PC magazines made a big deal of about USD1000 486 PCs.

By 1992, most of Intel's revenues are with 486 models.

From https://www.intel.fr/content/dam/doc/report/history-1994-annual-report.pdf
Intel reported the following
1. In 1994's fourth quarter, Pentium unit sales accounted for 23 percent of Intel's desktop processor volume.
2. Millions of Pentiums were shipped.
3. During Q4 1993 and 1994, a typical PC purchase was a computer featuring the Intel 486 chip.
4. Net 1994 revenue reached $11.5 billion.
5. Net 1993 revenue reached $8.7 billion.
6. Growing demand and production for Intel 486 resulted in a sharp decline in sales for Intel 386 from 1992 to 1993.
7. Sales of the Intel 486 family comprised the majority of Intel's revenue during 1992, 1993, and 1994.
8. Intel reached its 6 to 7 million Pentiums shipped goal during 1994. This is only 23 percent unit volume.

Amitech's 40 Mhz 68EC030 attempts to tap the Am386 @ 40 Mhz market. There was market hype with the "quad" and the number four in 1993.

A1200's gaming experience competed against SNES. Nintendo addressed the fast 386 40Mhz level CPU power with 20Mhz SuperFX2.

AMD's Am386 40 Mhz dominated the 386 market i.e. Am386 nuked Intel's 386DX 16, 20, 25, and 33Mhz. Commodore Germany's 25Mhz 68EC030-based offerings are not competitive in performance, price, and marketing.

AMD's Am386DX 40 Mhz approaches 486SX @ 20Mhz.

A1200 with 3rd party 68030 @ 40 Mhz or 50Mhz accelerator price is close to a 486SX-33-based PC.

For H2 1993, Apple released USD999 Quadra 605 (also known as LC 475, Performa 475) with 68LC040 @ 25Mhz to counter PC's USD1000 486SX-33 clones.


https://www.dosdays.co.uk/topics/1993.php
For the UK's 1993 market,
Commodore offers Commodore DT486DX-25 for £760 (UKP) which is about USD1000 and AUD1500 which is within my family's price range. It's similar to the UK ICL DT486 clone.

Commodore UK's 486DX PC clone plugs the price gap between A1200 and A4000/030 since Commodore UK's CPU-accelerated A1200 bundle was rejected.

Commodore DT486DX-25 has no problems beating A4000/EC030 @ 25 Mhz on playing Doom.

Quote:

Look at those specs, basically a smaller version of the Micronik Z3 busboard with a smaller case, a full KBD instead of just a conversion kit and if they are to believed an AGA flickerfixer (lock at the resolutions). Even the small config was either supposed to come with at least basic RAM extension (maybe a SIMM slot on the busboard).

All the development and tooling for what was doomed to be a limited run (since making more CD32 boards was out of the question) and it is more then obvious that they didn't plan to pay retail value for boards that had been collecting dust.

Platforms lacking clones have no insurance when the primary supplier goes bust or exits from the current development roadmap.

The production scale for Amitech's A2200 is about just 65,000 units.

Micronik Z3 bus board wasn't paired with low-cost CD32 SBC and there's cost wastage with buying stock A1200 when the user selects tower AGA form factor with Micronik Z3 bus board.

Micronik Z3 bus board alone wasn't cost competitive against the Far East competitors.

https://shop.elbox.com/index.php?id_category=4&controller=category
ELBox still sells PCI bus boards for 32-bit Amigas in the >300 Euro price range.

Last edited by Hammer on 09-Jan-2025 at 02:13 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 09-Jan-2025 at 02:11 AM.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 Next Page )

[ home ][ about us ][ privacy ] [ forums ][ classifieds ] [ links ][ news archive ] [ link to us ][ user account ]
Copyright (C) 2000 - 2019 Amigaworld.net.
Amigaworld.net was originally founded by David Doyle