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Hammer 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 29-Jan-2025 2:10:50
#181 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6173
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote:

Hammer Quote:

Only a tiny minority with PowerPC-based neo-Amiga.


Close enough to on topic and short for once.

Look in the mirror.

Quote:

Anyone can be a PPC elitist. All you have to do is buy a system with starting prices roughly 20 times as much as a RPi 400 but with less performance per CPU core and only 1 of 4 cores can be used. Well, then you have the privilege to pay more for software including drivers and OS enhancements. Buy it or you will not get access to the latest software. Only AmigaNOne makes it possible.

Emu68 (thin-hypervisor) can use up to three CPU cores i.e. main translation, auxiliary/support services (e.g. fetch), and debug.

As a hypervisor, Emu68 (with additional cheap hardware) has been tasked to capture the native Amiga RGB display and route it to RPi's modern HDMI, hence removing the need for the switch box and rarer 15kHz/31 kHz+ monitor combo. The extra effort with Emu68's WHDLoad games compatibility is the lesson from "we don't care about games" Amithlon.

The PC has its legacy (e.g. real mode VBIOS, VGA/EGA) and Amiga has its legacy.

AmigaNOne is just a Mac approach applied to the Amiga when the Amiga's hit-the-metal software library is not a Mac.

Amiga's hit-the-metal games are closer to PC's 386 protected modes hit-the-metal VGA games counterpart. It took a while for a healthy PC's Windows games library to reach a level where it could displace DOS equivalents e.g. Windows XP era.

I have both AmigaOS 4.1 FE UP2 PowerPC with Voodoo 3 3D acceleration (via WinUAE) and I still prefer AmigaOS 3.9 68K like many other Amiga fans.

You're focusing on the CPU, while I focus on software experience. "More than 10,000" Vampire sales show 68K Amiga is the Amiga. PowerPC is a misadventure.

For the 3DO M2 project, IBM tried to address the game console range-priced PowerPC 602 (transistor count similar to 68040 and 486DX), not Motorola/Freescale.

The "Amiga 500" price range is near the game console. IBM gave up on game consoles after failing to gain contracts with Xbox One(AMD Jaguar win driven by AMD GPU sale), PS4 (AMD Jaguar win driven by AMD GPU sale), and Switch (ARM Cortex A57 win driven by NVIDIA GPU sale). IBM PowerPC A2 is based on game console PPE.

Freescale continued to play instruction set kitbash PowerPC e500 with non-PowerPC FPU.

Both IBM and Freescale played instruction set kitbash PowerPC supervisor instruction set e.g. Book E product segmentation.

With QEMU 9, I have different AmigaOS 4.1 FE editions, play around with different PPC hardware combinations and it's a mess. PC's consistent standard for interoperability win.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSN43szLVts
Windows NT 4.0 (1996) runs on Intel Raptor Lake (2024).

AmigaOS 4.1 FE hardware policies remind me of Digital Research GEM locked with the IBM PC, blocking PC clones (e.g. Compaq) and demanding "porting" fees. Digital Research's action caused Compaq to fully support MS Windows 2.x R&D. Digital Research deserves to die and I don't give a damn about Gary Kildall. Digital Research later removed the IBM PC vendor lock, but the PR damage has been incurred.

PowerPC Book VLE (Variable Length Encoded Instruction Architecture) has a 16-bit instruction set for improved code density. This feature is not consistent with later PPCs.

Last edited by Hammer on 29-Jan-2025 at 04:07 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 29-Jan-2025 at 03:15 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 29-Jan-2025 at 03:06 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 29-Jan-2025 at 02:57 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 29-Jan-2025 at 02:36 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 29-Jan-2025 7:40:23
#182 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4843
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@matthey

Quote:
proliferate Warp3D instead of letting it die, improve their PR and save Amiga developers time.


Once the first fully open monolithic driver is on GitHub, that problem goes away anyway. It's all in how well the source is organised. And even if the first MVP is a bit of a mess, it's all there for anyone else to help improve.

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kriz 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 29-Jan-2025 18:13:42
#183 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2005
Posts: 242
From: No (R) Way

I`m looking forward to this !!

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klx300r 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 30-Jan-2025 18:36:46
#184 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3857
From: Toronto, Canada

@kolla

Quote:

@amigakit

Quote:
The point is that a Warp3D project was announced that proposes replacing the warp3d.library without consulting A-EON first.



Aren't you yourself the ones replacing just about the entire OS without consulting "the owner" first?


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Karlos 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 30-Jan-2025 20:08:33
#185 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4843
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@klx300r

It's a fair question.

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klx300r 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 30-Jan-2025 22:00:00
#186 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3857
From: Toronto, Canada

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
@klx300r

It's a fair question.


my X1000 has been acting up ever since perfectly good working system files were 'replaced' with other lets just say 'renamed' files so yup sure is

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Karlos 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 31-Jan-2025 15:50:15
#187 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4843
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@klx300r

Roll back then?

General libraries you need to be careful with. Something like Warp3D, it either works or it doesn't and it's not something many applications rely on. Your game might blow up and even take the system with it, but it's not going to lead to random instability otherwise.

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matthey 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 31-Jan-2025 19:30:59
#188 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2460
From: Kansas

Amiga development steps.

1. reinvent or steal the wheel
2. cause compatibility problems between reinvented wheels
3. protect your "precious"
4. betray your business partners, allies, developers and/or customers
5. release propaganda about how you support the Amiga and development
6. spin your wheels going nowhere
7. goto step 1

Imagine how much better off the Amiga would be if development efforts to reinvent the wheel had been used to improve the wheel, develop software using the wheel or develop new software. Only Amiga makes it possible.

Last edited by matthey on 31-Jan-2025 at 07:44 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 31-Jan-2025 19:51:40
#189 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4843
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@matthey

1. Know what the law says when creating a replacement for something that's closed and had no meaningful development for your platform of interest in a decade.
2. Create a free software replacement. Free as in freedom, not free beer.
3. Do a good job.
4. Enjoy.

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Karlos 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 3-Feb-2025 18:51:45
#190 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4843
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

Maybe it's the heavy cold I just came down with or the medication I took in response but I had an epiphany.

In order to avoid any legal action whatsoever, simply create a different library. One that doesn't implement the Warp3D API directly but some well thought-out set of operations for fixed function pipelines. Literally anyone could contribute to that, regardless of past exposure to any prior W3D sources. As it's no longer a Warp3D replacement there can be no conflict of interest. This library should be designed to be feature compatible with Warp3D, just not direclty API compatible.

Simultaneously, create a *wrapper* for that library, which can be so thin it's virtually see through, which can be your Warp3D "replacement". That's the body of code that needs to be "clean room" since *that* is what is replacing Warp3D, but it's so trivially straightforwards (by design) that any competent dev can do it with no knowledge of the actual 3D stuff going on. You could probably give the job to an AI, or better still the tea lady.

Next!

Last edited by Karlos on 03-Feb-2025 at 07:15 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 4-Feb-2025 5:30:16
#191 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6173
From: Australia

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
Maybe it's the heavy cold I just came down with or the medication I took in response but I had an epiphany.

In order to avoid any legal action whatsoever, simply create a different library. One that doesn't implement the Warp3D API directly but some well thought-out set of operations for fixed function pipelines. Literally anyone could contribute to that, regardless of past exposure to any prior W3D sources. As it's no longer a Warp3D replacement there can be no conflict of interest. This library should be designed to be feature compatible with Warp3D, just not direclty API compatible.

Simultaneously, create a *wrapper* for that library, which can be so thin it's virtually see through, which can be your Warp3D "replacement". That's the body of code that needs to be "clean room" since *that* is what is replacing Warp3D, but it's so trivially straightforwards (by design) that any competent dev can do it with no knowledge of the actual 3D stuff going on. You could probably give the job to an AI, or better still the tea lady.

Next!

Why?

Direct3D is MS trademark yet it's Direct3D whatever DLL names are cloned by SteamOS's Proton and WineX.

Reference
https://cdn-dynmedia-1.microsoft.com/is/content/microsoftcorp/microsoft/mscle/documents/presentations/Microsoft%20Trademarks%20List%20February%202024.pdf


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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 4-Feb-2025 6:26:16
#192 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12962
From: Norway

@Hammer

I believe as long as you do not use name to sell stuff, you’re not using for trading perhaps?

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Hammer 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 4-Feb-2025 8:43:08
#193 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6173
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

https://github.com/doitsujin/dxvk
A Vulkan-based translation layer for Direct3D 8/9/10/11 which allows running 3D applications on Linux using Wine.

Open source DXVK project cited MS Direct3D trademark. Valve's Proton includes DXVK.

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Karlos 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 4-Feb-2025 10:33:14
#194 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4843
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Hammer

Why? I thought it would be obvious, but to reiterate:

So that *anyone* can contribute to the new library without people using threats of IP infringement.

A new monolithic driver that does not directly implement the W3D API solves this issue. People that have worked on W3D can contribute to the new monolithic driver project without any threat over them. Someone who hasn't been exposed to the W3D code can implement the wrapper, which if the new project is handled correctly, is a simple task that doesn't require internal knowledge of W3D to realise.

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manga303 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 4-Feb-2025 17:22:09
#195 ]
Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2023
Posts: 12
From: Unknown

@Hammer

bravo ! at least some people understand...PPC was at its time "maybe" a good solution, to keep amigas powered but since years and special today PPC is a dead end. The best that could happen is Vampire and PiSTORM to keep the 68k legacy just with extrem power.

i really wanted to stay true, i wanted no emulation or anything to stay "true amiga" and everybody will get to the point to upgrade in PPC or buy AmigaOne or PiStorm-Vampire. When you look at the prices for PPC and AmigeOne, well you better check twice if it really brings you the solutions you need.

i emu ppc, buy amigaos4.1 and it was a mess for me. maybe the emulation is not that far, but i try qemu and other ways like this Flower kit something for 4.1.

i give it one last chance and invest my last money into the pistorm and hell it feel like xmas 92 again. All this high resolution, network, mp3, movie things are just the bonus! 3D Games in 60fps, playstation1 emulation, scummvm, whatever name it and its running like hell. The best all this late "heavy" 68k Apps flying like a jesus on E. i was never more happy and just buy today a new 27" Dell and switch from 1333x resultion to 1080p full hd. Well i dont need my PC anymore..nojoke! This Amiga is a freaking full Personal Computer, i get all the apps for office, paint progs, browser (i write now this on the pi a1200) i have stereo high quality sound mp3, ogg, wav. i fly away !

sorry but for me it is a gateway into secound reality, mindblowing after mindblowing. i can only say if someone want back into amiga, dont buy thousends adapters, hardware fixes, vga flickerfixer, turbocards, wodem, hdds, pcmcia. just get an pistorm for some money and you fly away.

When this is not the future of amiga then hell... what will ?? this is the chance to jump back into track. people love 68k, they know 68k and the apps and with this powercard there is no need for anything else. period !

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Hammer 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 4-Feb-2025 21:37:31
#196 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6173
From: Australia

@manga303

Quote:
bravo ! at least some people understand...PPC was at its time "maybe" a good solution, to keep amigas powered but since years and special today PPC is a dead end. The best that could happen is Vampire and PiSTORM to keep the 68k legacy just with extrem power.


The problem is that IBM PowerPC 602 isn't suitable for an OS environment with a 68K emulator since the cache is small. 3DO M2 is not backward compatible with the original 3DO.

Without UAE, AmigaOS 4.x and MorphOS PPC approach with legacy is MacOS PPC with userland 68K approach which doesn't work with WHDLoad Amiga games. Amiga is not Mac.

PiStorm-Emu68 and Vampire are compatible with WHDLoad Amiga games.

From history, the A500's CPU selection and platform price are contemporary with a mainstream game console like the Sega Mega Drive / Genesis. No Amiga PPC solution's price and CPU selection were contemporary with PowerPC-based game consoles. Amiga PPC providers like Mac PPC are wannabe without MacOS and Mac business apps. Again, Amiga is not Mac.

PiStorm-Emu68 with RPi 4B or CM4's ARM Cortex A72 CPU selection and price are contemporary with a mainstream game console like the Nintendo Switch's ARM Cortex A57 CPU selection.

ARM Cortex A53 selection is not contemporary with a mainstream game console like the Nintendo Switch's ARM Cortex A57.

PiStorm-Emu68 with RPi 4B with work in progress Nanomig (low-cost Amiga chipset FPGA) enables low-cost standalone full Amiga clone with "next-gen" performance.

Last edited by Hammer on 04-Feb-2025 at 09:39 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 4-Feb-2025 21:51:21
#197 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6173
From: Australia

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
@Hammer

Why? I thought it would be obvious, but to reiterate:

So that *anyone* can contribute to the new library without people using threats of IP infringement.

A new monolithic driver that does not directly implement the W3D API solves this issue. People that have worked on W3D can contribute to the new monolithic driver project without any threat over them. Someone who hasn't been exposed to the W3D code can implement the wrapper, which if the new project is handled correctly, is a simple task that doesn't require internal knowledge of W3D to realise.


FYI, Valve's CEO worked on DirectDraw API. AMD co-operated with MS Direct3D, Valve's Proton (with DXVK), and Sony on RDNA 2 GPU drivers.

http://media.redgamingtech.com/rgt-website/2014/10/playstation-4-directx-11-HLSL.jpg
Sony PlayStation 4's interoperability with MS DirectX11 standard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_LLC_v._Oracle_America,_Inc.#Decision

The Court issued its decision on April 5, 2021. In a 6–2 majority, the Court ruled that Google's use of the Java APIs was within the bounds of fair use.


Impact

Google v. Oracle was a closely watched case by the tech industry. A ruling favoring Oracle could have had significant effects on past and future software development given the prolific use of APIs.[82] Opponents of the Federal Circuit's ruling, including Google and other developers of Android-based software, had raised several concerns including the impact on interoperability, software innovation, and the potential for bad actors to pick up the rights to old software and file claims against companies who built their software on what were assumed to be open standards. If APIs became subject to copyright protection, it is believed that companies would need to implement deliberately incompatible standards to protect themselves from the risk of complex litigation. This scenario would mean moving away from the current trends in software development which have focused on improving interoperability between different services, allowing apps to communicate with one another, and creating more integrated platforms for end users.[63][14]

Industry and legal experts stated an Oracle victory could have created a chilling effect in software development, with copyright holders using the copyright on APIs to prevent their use in developing interoperable alternatives through reverse engineering, as common in open source software development.

At the same time, experts cautioned that a judgment favoring Google's position may weaken protection for copyright for software code developers, allowing competitors with better resources to develop improved products from smaller firms and reduce the motive for innovation within the industry.

One example identified by Wired is the Linux operating system. While Linux is fully open source, it is based on POSIX, a set of APIs that mimic those of the commercial Unix operating system that enable high levels of interoperability for developers; a programmer would only need to write one set of code which then can be compiled on any system that has the same API, even if the computing architecture of the systems are different. If case law favored Oracle, the owners of earlier versions of Unix, Micro Focus, could have sought damages from any POSIX-based operating system developer intending to use the operating system for commercial use.


An Oracle case victory would impact software API cloners including Valve's Proton and bundled DXVK.


Political aspect,
Stephen Breyer = Democrat, pro-API clone, anti-copyright API protection.
Clarence Thomas = Republican, pro-copyright API protection.
Samuel Alito = Republican, pro-copyright API protection.
Other Republican nominated judges sided with Democrat nominated Stephen Breyer.

Last edited by Hammer on 04-Feb-2025 at 11:02 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 04-Feb-2025 at 10:37 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 04-Feb-2025 at 10:35 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 04-Feb-2025 at 10:30 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 04-Feb-2025 at 10:27 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 04-Feb-2025 at 10:25 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 5-Feb-2025 11:49:34
#198 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4843
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Hammer

None of that is going to stop someone with a suitably big axe to grind from initiating something just to create frustration.

The history of development our platform is replete withe examples of such sh*tf*ckery.

Creating a completely separate, non-API compatible monolith 3D driver that is trivially wrappable to allow W3D applications to run on it would seem to leave no possible avenue for this. The wrapper can be implemented "clean room", while the monolith as a separate and technically unrelated project can be worked on by anyone and everyone.

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Heimdall 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 5-Feb-2025 12:53:38
#199 ]
Member
Joined: 20-Jan-2025
Posts: 47
From: North Dakota

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
@matthey

Quote:
proliferate Warp3D instead of letting it die, improve their PR and save Amiga developers time.


Once the first fully open monolithic driver is on GitHub, that problem goes away anyway. It's all in how well the source is organised. And even if the first MVP is a bit of a mess, it's all there for anyone else to help improve.
As much as I don't like to engage in yet-another-rabbit-hole that'll postpone finishing my game (yet again), once it's on GitHub, I can imagine devoting some time to this throughout the year as the work (features, bugs) could be done in smaller chunks (new branch not effecting anyone till it's merged).

I just don't want to be later accused of taking one side (or another) in this Amiga Warfare. I have no stake in the matter (never had, actually), but don't want no part in drama.


If I *really* wanted drama, I could have stayed in the Jaguar community - much less effort that way :)

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: New Warp3D compatible library for PiStorm32 (Pi4/CM4) Campaign
Posted on 5-Feb-2025 16:48:20
#200 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12962
From: Norway

@Heimdall

You probably did not know about this, but this is dramaworld.net, inclusivity invited the factions into the forum, different moderators was supposed to reflect different camps, but after a few years the moderators gave up.

Quote:
If I *really* wanted drama, I could have stayed in the Jaguar community - much less effort that way :)


Please spill the beans, what’s the drama in the Jaguar forum. Who are the fractions? Why are they fighting about? Don’t worry about going off topic, we do it all the time

to avoid drama, different forums were made for etch fraction for different amiga fans.
AROS has its own forum, EAB is forum classic users use, MorphZone is place morphos users hang out, and Amigans is place for AmigaOS4.x users. Amiga.org used to be classic users, but the owners decided to change forum with CSS layout, making it hard to use on old Amiga systems. And they started pushing OS4 related stuff there.

ANN.lu was closed because it was impossible moderate.
Moo bunny continued as a place for anyone who did not fit in, who was thrown out the forums.

In any case it used to be a lot worse.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Feb-2025 at 04:49 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Feb-2025 at 04:49 PM.

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