@amigakit

pistorm is worth nothing crap.
with switch to arm should be done things like
memory protection
unix compatybility
drivers
decent webbrowser
just repeating what was done 30 years ago with ppc is extremely stupid waste of time work and money

@ppcamiga1

Pistorm is probably the most important innovation for 68K in the last decade.

Lets not get offtopic

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@matthey

Quote:

It is funny that you talk about a "cycle efficient driver" with very cycle inefficient emulation. This is amateur hour due to noncompetitive Amiga hardware.

Come on Matthey, don't be a ppcamiga1. I already said that an obvious future goal for such a library project would be to build similar drivers for other hardware. I even gave R200 on mediator as an example. The original code has a lot of library indirection and makes it impossible for a chip driver to have a say in the management of resources which leads to other avoidable inefficiencies.

A single file is also a much simpler proposition for an end user who no longer has to worry about three components libraries (main, RTG and chip driver) for their grand total of one GPU.

Last edited by Karlos on 19-Jan-2025 at 07:00 PM.

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@ppcamiga1

wrong

UAE emulates the whole hardware including processor and chipset

emu68 translates 68k in arm code on the fly

@amigakit

I honestly don't think AEON need to do anything or worry about it. If they own Warp3D that's cool and there's plenty of existing OS4 hardware they need to support. I myself destroyed a G4 A1 working on improving the legacy Radeon drivers by constantly switching between five different cards and there was still a ton of things on the improvement todo list then.

Where they ever done? No idea. Either way, I don't see that they have ever shown any interest in supporting 3.x / 68K as people have asked for Radeon R100 and R200 drivers for those systems as long as they've had them working with their mediators, which is at least as long a AEON have owned it, based on your 2014 date. Unless you can show otherwise, I don't see why they'd suddenly need to start caring about it now.

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@amigakit

as I understand it the API is stormmesa library and only lowlevel stuff is warp3d so it not affects compatiblity. The problem more is warp3d on 4.X, is it still compatible to anything on 68k? I think both are different already

@ppcamiga1

emu68 just translates 68k code in arm code

winuae is similar to vmware, it emulates the complete amiga hardware

@amigakit

Quote:

Lets not get offtopic

ppcamiga1 is amigaworld's analog engagement bot. He never deviate much yet always delivers high number of posts and does it consuming very little energy making it very efficient in the process.

In the end all the answers given to him helps fostering the knowledge of Amiga from a diverse sets of points of view. It is annoying? Yes it is! But it's all for the greater good

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@Karlos


A-EON care about their IP including Warp3D and the direction it takes, whether it is on Classic or NG hardware.

The point is that a Warp3D project was announced that proposes replacing the warp3d.library without consulting A-EON first. A-EON is not interested in monetising this or leveraging royalties from the Pistorm team. A free 3D driver for the Pistorm user base is the best way forward. The Pistorm is a project that is held in good standing by A-EON. Simply opening a conversation with A-EON is the best way forward. There will be technical solutions to support 3D on the Pistorm products, but mutual dialogue is the way to find them.

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@amigakit

I'm sure they do, but an open source, greenfield reimplementation of the publicly documented API is not their IP, is it? And what direction it takes? Please. On 68K it's gone literally nowhere whatsoever since what, v4.3? Hyperion released that update.

If I went and replaced any other library with an open replacement nobody would bat an eyelid. People do it all the time: math libraries, data types, classes. Things included with the OS and things that were added after.

Why is this a special case?

Last edited by Karlos on 19-Jan-2025 at 08:33 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 19-Jan-2025 at 08:31 PM.

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@Karlos

I have already said in a previous message here that a clean room reimplementation of the API that does not use the Warp3D name is acceptable. Anything else would need dialogue with the IP owners, A-EON Technology Ltd. Hopefully the proposed coder for this project does not have access to closed repositories that contain the Warp3D source code because that would not constitute a clean room implementation.

The best scenario would be a free of charge Warp3D driver for all of the Pistorm users out there to enjoy. The Pistorm developers can engage with A-EON to make this a reality if they get in touch. A-EON is not interested in leveraging royalties or monetising this.

Last edited by amigakit on 19-Jan-2025 at 08:44 PM.
Last edited by amigakit on 19-Jan-2025 at 08:43 PM.

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@amigakit

Quote:

From: www.amigakit.com @Karlos I have already said in a previous message here that a clean room reimplementation of the API that does not use the Warp3D name is acceptable

Then everything is cool because as far as I can see, that's precisely what's being suggested, isn't it? No different to Wazp3D except that it's targeting a specific bit of hardware and not a software implementation.

Quote:

Hopefully the proposed coder for this project does not have access to closed repositories that contain the Warp3D source code because that would not constitute a clean room implementation

OK. Let's be realistic here. Even if they did, which I very much doubt, it's an entirely new implementation approach for an entirely new hardware target so it's of no practical use to them whatsoever. Getting all lawtard over it would just be what one of my Aussie ftoends likes to call wanton sh*tf**kery for the sheer sake of it.

This is precisely why I've never bothered. It's why we can't have nice things.

Last edited by Karlos on 19-Jan-2025 at 09:04 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 19-Jan-2025 at 09:04 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 19-Jan-2025 at 08:48 PM.

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Last edited by Mr-Z on 19-Jan-2025 at 09:16 PM.
Last edited by Mr-Z on 19-Jan-2025 at 09:12 PM.
Last edited by Mr-Z on 19-Jan-2025 at 09:11 PM.

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@Mr-Z

A-EON is fully supportive of a free 3D driver for Pistorm. Quite clearly you have not carefully read anything that I have posted previously:

Quote:

A-EON is not interested in leveraging royalties or monetising this.

Warp3D Nova is not fixed pipeline compatible. It is intended for graphics cards that use Shaders. There are no Classic 68K hardware solutions at this time that accomodate Shaders.

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@amigakit

I know warp3D nova is aimed at gfx cards that use shaders (like every modern GPU does).
VC6 does have shaders btw, it's not the fastest GPU to say the least but more than enough for the needs of classic Amiga/PiStorm.

Well hopefully I was wrong and this situation pans out.

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@Mr-Z

It should be fine. I think there may have been some confusion because of the naming but it's pretty clear it's in nobody's interest to try and create an alternative using the Warp3D name which belongs to iP holder and IMNSHO in literally nobody's interests to be looking at the legacy code for this task. Legal issues aside, it's completely irrelevant:

- The original code is all modular, abtracted at runtime across multiple libraries, the proposed solution is monolithic.
- The original code targets a bunch of extinct fixed-function pipeline devices, the target solution has to talk to a more modern arhcitecture that shares almost nothing in common with them.
- The original code has a bunch of complexity aimed at supporting multiple devices on the same machine at the same time.

I could go on, but I think divergence is clear. The only commonality is the API itself.

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@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @ppcamiga1 emu68 just translates 68k code in arm code winuae is similar to vmware, it emulates the complete amiga hardware

VMware is a hypervisor and hardware-accelerated by CPU VT and IO-VT extensions when available.

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@amigakit

Quote:

amigakit wrote: @Karlos I have already said in a previous message here that a clean room reimplementation of the API that does not use the Warp3D name is acceptable. Anything else would need dialogue with the IP owners, A-EON Technology Ltd. Hopefully the proposed coder for this project does not have access to closed repositories that contain the Warp3D source code because that would not constitute a clean room implementation. The best scenario would be a free of charge Warp3D driver for all of the Pistorm users out there to enjoy. The Pistorm developers can engage with A-EON to make this a reality if they get in touch. A-EON is not interested in leveraging royalties or monetising this.

There is a work in progress 3D acceleration warp3d library for Broadcom Video Core 4. This library replaces the official warp3d library.

The new bounty is for Broadcom Video Core 6.

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@Karlos

I know that and what you say is very much true.
So we name it somelib.library for example but every existing application will search for the warp3d.library because it does not know about somelib.library.

So for the sake of keeping compatibility with the (small) existing software base that can use 3D acceleration on 68K/OS3 it would be nice if we where to be allowed to rename somelib.library to warp3D.library on installation for keeping compatibility with existing software.

Just as you have to do with other available solutions that are already out there for many years (wazp3d/Quarktex).

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@Mr-Z

It doesn't matter what it's called. You just plop it into Libs and rename it. It's not exactly rocket science.

Thinking about it, just call it Warp2D and be done. It's by far the most accurate name for what it is: lol:

Legacy Warp3D doesn't have any "3D" functionality anyway. It's a pure screen-space rasterizer. All the triangle setup, transformation, lighting, projection and clipping has to be done in software before you call it. It just renders the end result with at most some scissoring or guardband clipping to avoid going mental with wildly offscreen coordinates.

This is why I enjoyed using it for 2D so much.

Last edited by Karlos on 19-Jan-2025 at 10:40 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 19-Jan-2025 at 10:40 PM.

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