@ppcamiga1

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Amiga os on x86 or arm or Amiga NG 2.0 should be open source cpu independent amiga gui and graphics implementation on top of unix.

https://axrt.org/gallery-images/axrt-mplayer.jpg
MUI MPlayer app recompiled for AxRT (middleware) running on Linux Mint.

Valve's SteamOS 3.x focuses on Windows-compatible Proton middleware with a Linux-based OS.

Google's Android/Chrome focuses on Google's middleware with a Linux-based kernel.

AxRT is an interesting direction since hardware driver plumbing work is handled by the Linux world. Hardware companies like AMD, Intel, ARM, and Qualcomm officially support Linux.

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Amiga os on x86 or arm or Amiga NG 2.0 should be open source cpu independent .

For Amiga and other Amiga-like platforms, 68K acts like a CPU abstraction layer.

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memory protection, security, drivers all this made aros x86, aros runtime, emu68 worth nothing shit

Emu68's claim to fame is a low-overhead 68K emulator with PiStorm running on C= Amiga hardware. Emu68's 68K translation is dedicated to a CPU core with physical RAM access.

WinUAE 6's multithreading Amiga chipset emulation enables a CPU thread to be dedicated to 68K translation.

RPCS3 (PS3 emulator) has "physical page mode" which speeds up emulation.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@cdimauro

I certainly can see your definition of Amiga NG being tied to the 64 bit processor, makes sense.

For me, I see it as:
1. The first OS to be created on original 68k hardware, albeit with a PPC. Even the first releases were real good out of the gate with functionality and potential.
2. 25 years of development to do what an Amiga would do now had it continued. IE when I bought my first Amiga it did what was expected for the time very well. It's 2025, everyone expects a browser and email built into the base install. MorphOS is all alone with almost a full suite of modern native software built from the ground up with enhancements to the OS to make it all work well.

Not a real big deal either way.

@Matt3k

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Matt3k wrote: @cdimauro I certainly can see your definition of Amiga NG being tied to the 64 bit processor, makes sense.

64 bits is just one of many other things which the Amiga OS is missing to be considered a modern, robust OS --> hence suitable for a regular / mainstream experience.

But here we're talking about only the OS structure.
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For me, I see it as: 1. The first OS to be created on original 68k hardware, albeit with a PPC. Even the first releases were real good out of the gate with functionality and potential. 2. 25 years of development to do what an Amiga would do now had it continued. IE when I bought my first Amiga it did what was expected for the time very well. It's 2025, everyone expects a browser and email built into the base install. MorphOS is all alone with almost a full suite of modern native software built from the ground up with enhancements to the OS to make it all work well. Not a real big deal either way.

Here you're talking about the application level.

To be modern & suitable for mainstream customers, I personally consider mandatory a platform to have:
- recent/modern C/C++, Python, Java, Rust compilers;
- the possibility to compile every project (included the above compilers) natively (e.g.: NOT with cross-compilation);
- a modern browser (to navigate all relevant / mainstream sites).

This is the bare minimum (email clients aren't necessary, because web emails are very common nowadays).

@cdimauro

Sure, fair points...

If Aros or 68k get's an influx of what it needs, then fair play.

The rubber meets the road with the applications for me, sure we I could use unix or browser based stuff but, then why bother with anything at that point?

To me I do have a few 68k things the OS handles with JIT, but all the rest is the fun of running the native software that is really good. Even better that my recommendations often make it into the product themselves. It provides enough Amiga flavor and the fun of native apps, I personally prefer running software this way.

If all that matters it the browser and the unix undercoating, then Aros is the way to go for you.

MorphOS is fun as the Team is fun to work with as a user and the excitement of Mirari and other software like the spreadsheet and lots of other items popping up daily now. That is the fun of it all, otherwise I would just use windows or linux to get it done. YMMV as every user has their own experience they are seeking. It is a great solution now and fun to DD... So to me the apps drive the experience for my needs...

@Matt3k

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Matt3k wrote: I see 68k stuff, including the GS as fun for nostalgia purposes to go run stuff I remember from the 80's that I played. All good and has it place. MorphOS is the Amiga that evolved to become a usable daily driver.

I totally understand your love of MorphOS. The MorphOS Team and the developers that have developed and ported apps and games to MorphOS have done amazing things under the circumstances, but there is nothing about MorphOS that is specific to PPC. Everything in MorphOS could just as easily be accomplished in the M68k ISA.

The key thing is not to conflate the M68k ISA with the available M68k silicon. It’s true that available M68k silicon is clocked lower (slower) than available PPC silicon, whether it’s old CPUs or FPGA implementation such as the Apollo Team’s 68080.

As you say, MorphOS kind of takes the Amiga OS paradigms and makes them work on PPC hardware, including emulation of classic Amiga systems and sub-systems for backward compatibility. And it is the most mature and stable Amiga-inspired follow-on system. But if there were M68k CPUs running between 1GHz and 2GHz, MorphOS would still be able to do and be all the same amazing things.

The MorphOS Team has been looking at porting MorphOS to another ISA for a while. We know they planned for x64, and maybe since then they’ve also looked at ARM64, but the porting could just as well work on a 68k ISA to run on a SoftCPU implementation.

Meaning that 68k ISA is not just for nostalgia/retro purposes.
Not saying they will ever do such a thing, but they could, and I’m one of those people who think they should.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@cdimauro

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cdimauro wrote: @agami Sassenrath is the major responsible for the current Amiga OS situation / bad design. I don't recall REBOL (I've very quickly took a look at it many years ago), but its nano-niche could be speak a lot about it...

The point isn’t about Carl himself, or REBOL.

The point was, his original Lava plans were doing things in the right order. Like a Lean Startup.
Work on a language first, expand the scope of the language, and then create a dedicated OS as the best home for that language.

My alternate plan to ppcamiga1’s wishful thinking was following that above logic to unify Amiga developers by providing a standardized development environment, which would in essence be our new app development (expression) language. Lower level than Hollywood, and more efficient and flexible than Java.

These apps could run on MorphOS, AmigaOS 4, Windows, macOS, Linux as long as the essential run-time environment was installed.
My main point to ppcamiga1 was that an OS is a substantial undertaking, under the best of circumstances, even if one is just building a DE on top of Unix/Linux, like System76 have been doing for a couple years now with Cosmos.

If Amiga developers can’t think of cool apps that would be improvements over those found on existing mainstream systems, a true Amiga NG OS is not going to fix that.

There was a time in the ‘90s and early 2000s when it seamed that every man and his dog was creating a new OS, language, and protocol. That time has long past. We have enough RTOS, micro-kernel, monolithic-kernel, and distributed computing operating systems. For better or worse, the personal computing world has largely standardized on the Windows, macOS, Gnome (Gtk) Linux + KDE (Qt) Linux OS/OE/DE paradigms. Without tens of millions of dollars, what possible differentiation could Amiga OS realistically offer beyond a UI toolkit and some unique UX paradigms?

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All the way, with 68k

@ppcamiga1

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ppcamiga1 wrote: Amiga NG 2.0 should be open source so everyone who want may changed it Amiga NG 2.0 should be cpu independent so everyone may use on whatever want 68k , ppc, arm ,x86 etc etc

Nice idea. Back in the day I used Linux source to help with Amiga driver development. Open source was the key!

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zune and graphics from aros and nlist should be ported to unix and for example to sdl after that new layout classes should be made after that good gui builder shoud be made for it then new windows system with amiga screen and windows functionality should be made then gtk and some useful app should be ported to it

No need to do all that. Just write code that's OS independent so it can be adapted to any GUI.

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who should work on this?

Anyone who wants to. That won't be me - I'm fully committed to developing for retro systems.

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all this that want to switch / move away from ppc

The underlying hardware should be irrelevant.

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instead of trolling should hard work on new Amiga NG 2.0

Nah. Hard work is hard. Trolling is more fun!

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just leave ppc as it is and work on something new open source and cpu independent

I agree. But we have so much already. What new programs do people actually want?

@Matt3k

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Matt3k wrote: @cdimauro Sure, fair points... If Aros or 68k get's an influx of what it needs, then fair play.

Every post-Amiga platform lies on the same situation, and I don't see any possibility of concrete improvements in the future.

The Amiga community is stuck/frozen, everyone on the niche which he/she decides to hole up.
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The rubber meets the road with the applications for me, sure we I could use unix or browser based stuff but, then why bother with anything at that point? To me I do have a few 68k things the OS handles with JIT, but all the rest is the fun of running the native software that is really good. Even better that my recommendations often make it into the product themselves. It provides enough Amiga flavor and the fun of native apps, I personally prefer running software this way.

But if it's all about the applications, then the underlying OS and, in general, the underlying platform doesn't matter anymore.
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If all that matters it the browser and the unix undercoating, then Aros is the way to go for you.

AROS has nothing to do with Unix, fortunately (I don't like Unix).

AROS was the first reimplementation of the Amiga OS. MorphOS has also borrowed some AROS components (the DOS library and some other stuff).

The primary difference is that AROS was/is open to different architectures (that's why we got the 64-bit version) and to experiments (Gallium, MESA, SMP, ...).

Anyway, both share the same doom, since the original sin which binds all post-Amiga OSes is the same, and nothing can be done to fix/improve the situation because nobody wants to loose the backward-compatibility with the existing software.

Actually, software is the only thing which is left from the Amiga (which is good: is the one which we, Amigans, loved and still love), but it's also the one which is crystallizing the platform and blocking any further improvement.
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MorphOS is fun as the Team is fun to work with as a user and the excitement of Mirari and other software like the spreadsheet and lots of other items popping up daily now. That is the fun of it all, otherwise I would just use windows or linux to get it done. YMMV as every user has their own experience they are seeking. It is a great solution now and fun to DD... So to me the apps drive the experience for my needs...

Fare enough.

@agami

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agami wrote: @Matt3k Quote: Matt3k wrote: I see 68k stuff, including the GS as fun for nostalgia purposes to go run stuff I remember from the 80's that I played. All good and has it place. MorphOS is the Amiga that evolved to become a usable daily driver. I totally understand your love of MorphOS. The MorphOS Team and the developers that have developed and ported apps and games to MorphOS have done amazing things under the circumstances, but there is nothing about MorphOS that is specific to PPC. Everything in MorphOS could just as easily be accomplished in the M68k ISA. The key thing is not to conflate the M68k ISA with the available M68k silicon. It’s true that available M68k silicon is clocked lower (slower) than available PPC silicon, whether it’s old CPUs or FPGA implementation such as the Apollo Team’s 68080. As you say, MorphOS kind of takes the Amiga OS paradigms and makes them work on PPC hardware, including emulation of classic Amiga systems and sub-systems for backward compatibility. And it is the most mature and stable Amiga-inspired follow-on system. But if there were M68k CPUs running between 1GHz and 2GHz, MorphOS would still be able to do and be all the same amazing things. The MorphOS Team has been looking at porting MorphOS to another ISA for a while. We know they planned for x64, and maybe since then they’ve also looked at ARM64, but the porting could just as well work on a 68k ISA to run on a SoftCPU implementation. Meaning that 68k ISA is not just for nostalgia/retro purposes. Not saying they will ever do such a thing, but they could, and I’m one of those people who think they should.

Actually, 68k is the only thing where it makes sense to invest on.

First of all, and as you've pointed out, there's nothing from the "successors" (!) which is missing or that can't be backported to the Amiga OS. In fact, they are essentially reimplementations of the same OS / APIs / platform.

Second, and even more important, technology has been slowing down for some time and will stop at some point. The Ghz race is a prime example. The race for IPC is another. Performance is, therefore, destined to flatten out and reach its natural limit. By this I am mainly referring to single core/thread performance, which is by far the most important when it comes to emulation and Amiga in particular. Yes, there will always be more cores available (again, until we saturate the space in which to stack them), but they are of little or no relevance to the Amiga.

The implications of it all are that the best performing emulation there can be, at present and in the future, will reach a certain level of performance, and stop (whatever processor is used: x64 or ARM64, it makes no difference at all). And there will be nothing else that can be done.

In such a situation the only way to get high performance for Amiga (and thus, by definition, 68k) applications will be to run them... on a modern 68k processor. Which will not suffer from the price to pay of emulation, because... there will be none (no intermediate layer).

Even without reaching the current 6Ghz and the 8-10 instructions per clock cycle (theoretical), a discrete implementation of a 68k processor will undoubtedly do much better, and at much lower cost (and consumption).

But, of course, it will have to be invested in...

@Hammer
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WinUAE 6's multithreading Amiga chipset emulation enables a CPU thread to be dedicated to 68K translation.

I've done a podcast out of winuae 6 changelog, for those interested to see its evolution in a novel way.

https://youtu.be/kkWjxkLViLk?si=QJFMm4aSrdwGHjRA

And a support site

https://sites.google.com/view/winuae6-evo/home

_________________
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The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@agami

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agami wrote: @cdimauro Quote: cdimauro wrote: @agami Sassenrath is the major responsible for the current Amiga OS situation / bad design. I don't recall REBOL (I've very quickly took a look at it many years ago), but its nano-niche could be speak a lot about it... The point isn’t about Carl himself, or REBOL. The point was, his original Lava plans were doing things in the right order. Like a Lean Startup. Work on a language first, expand the scope of the language, and then create a dedicated OS as the best home for that language.

There's already Java for something like that. And C#/.NET from Microsoft.

People like to reinvent the wheel, but the new wheel should have a significant value, otherwise it's pointless to use it.
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My alternate plan to ppcamiga1’s wishful thinking was following that above logic to unify Amiga developers by providing a standardized development environment, which would in essence be our new app development (expression) language. Lower level than Hollywood, and more efficient and flexible than Java.

Indeed, reinventing wheel.

That's why I'd to see the DETAILS on how it should work. Talk is cheap...
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These apps could run on MorphOS, AmigaOS 4, Windows, macOS, Linux as long as the essential run-time environment was installed.

Then why don't just use WASM for this low-level infrastructure? It's exactly there for what you want to do.
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My main point to ppcamiga1 was that an OS is a substantial undertaking, under the best of circumstances, even if one is just building a DE on top of Unix/Linux, like System76 have been doing for a couple years now with Cosmos. If Amiga developers can’t think of cool apps that would be improvements over those found on existing mainstream systems, a true Amiga NG OS is not going to fix that. There was a time in the ‘90s and early 2000s when it seamed that every man and his dog was creating a new OS, language, and protocol. That time has long past. We have enough RTOS, micro-kernel, monolithic-kernel, and distributed computing operating systems. For better or worse, the personal computing world has largely standardized on the Windows, macOS, Gnome (Gtk) Linux + KDE (Qt) Linux OS/OE/DE paradigms. Without tens of millions of dollars, what possible differentiation could Amiga OS realistically offer beyond a UI toolkit and some unique UX paradigms?

If everything is only and all about toolkits, frameworks, and something like that, then we don't need a new one: just pick one of the existing and stick with it, creating an Amiga-like environment.

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Without tens of millions of dollars, what possible differentiation could Amiga OS realistically offer beyond a UI toolkit

We have year 2025. correct question is:

Without tens of billions of dollars, what possible differentiation could Amiga OS realistically offer beyond a UI toolkit?

correct answear is nothing.

so amiga os on x86 or arm may be only amiga gui and graphics on top of unix or will be total shit.

we have all parts like zune and nlist

so szulc, szonwejs, di mauro, agami, hammer start working

@number6

I'm getting older.

Btw, as far as i know, Commodore Industries contacted them.
Who knows? They have already top quality laptop with the C= label.
Moreover a console is coming and the Wonderful Arm based PC coming too.

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retired

@AmigaBlitter

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I'm getting older

I can relate to that.

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Btw, as far as i know, Commodore Industries contacted them. Who knows? They have already top quality laptop with the C= label. Moreover a console is coming and the Wonderful Arm based PC coming too.

As you know from posts here Valter joined AW some time ago. Perhaps you recall the discussion about going to AmiWest or sending some promotional material there? Or Valter's inquiries about reviving IPs even longer ago?

There is somewhat of a common ground if you recall all that Luigi has written about "why" he is on a similar path as Peri. "Destiny". If that doesn't ring a bell, go back and read his earliest writings in Italy. You might also recall that Eugene Van OS spoke about them on the Nostalgia Nerd's excellent history of Commodore video. There was no doubt at that time that Eugene wanted to expand licensing.

You might also recall Luigi's issue with what Sean and Leo were doing, where everyone of those "names" that Peri mentioned in his vid chimed in to help settle. So, the relationships are easy to spot.

It seems everyone knows or knows OF everyone else, so that's hopeful. We'll see how it goes...

#6

Added: What about Massimo and Paolo with CBM? Do you know if they've made contact?

Last edited by number6 on 10-Jun-2025 at 12:51 PM.

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This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
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@pixie

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pixie wrote: @Hammer Quote: WinUAE 6's multithreading Amiga chipset emulation enables a CPU thread to be dedicated to 68K translation. I've done a podcast out of winuae 6 changelog, for those interested to see its evolution in a novel way. https://youtu.be/kkWjxkLViLk?si=QJFMm4aSrdwGHjRA And a support site https://sites.google.com/view/winuae6-evo/home

Nice summary.

I like this improvement.

Multi-threaded Denise/Lisa Emulation (Beta 13): This is highlighted as a significant performance boost. By moving the rasterization process to a separate thread, WinUAE can leverage multi-core processors more effectively. "Major performance improvement! Finally faster than older versions!"

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@ppcamiga1

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We have year 2025. correct question is: Without tens of billions of dollars, what possible differentiation could Amiga OS realistically offer beyond a UI toolkit? correct answear is nothing. so amiga os on x86 or arm may be only amiga gui and graphics on top of unix or will be total shit. we have all parts like zune and nlist so szulc, szonwejs, di mauro, agami, hammer start working

The combined "Commodore Amiga" retro has a higher $$$$$ potential than any NeoAmigaPPC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN8r4LRcOXc

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@ppcamiga1

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ppcamiga1 wrote: Quote: Without tens of millions of dollars, what possible differentiation could Amiga OS realistically offer beyond a UI toolkit We have year 2025. correct question is: Without tens of billions of dollars, what possible differentiation could Amiga OS realistically offer beyond a UI toolkit? correct answear is nothing.

The nothing else can be made, elementary logic at hands.
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so amiga os on x86 or arm may be only amiga gui and graphics on top of unix or will be total shit.

Since Unix is already shit by itself, then you need to nothing else to get shit. Again, elementary logic at hands.
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we have all parts like zune and nlist

Wrong.
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so szulc, szonwejs, di mauro, agami, hammer start working

Since it's YOU that like Unix, and Unix is shit, and it's YOUR shit. Once again, elementary logic at hands.

@number6

Haven't read AW for a long time. I don't remember these threads.

Hope something good wil sort out:

Someone have licences
Someone have Logo
Someone have patents

What seems that some doesn't have is the ability to recognize that together can be stronger and can restart some sort of business.

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retired

@AmigaBlitter

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I don't remember these threads.

I doubt many people followed these subjects at all People only read topics that interest them, right?

If these groups are making contact and talking, that's a reasonable first step.

#6

Additional note for what it's worth:

155,000 views and over 2100 comments on the Commodore vid so far.
Reddit and the other sites mentioned continue to gather comments.

Last edited by number6 on 10-Jun-2025 at 03:43 PM.

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This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

@ppcamiga1

Yawn

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