#6 Quote:

Strictly out of professional courtesy I checked with the patreon. It seemed the early preview of "some" information was meant to be promotional to encourage those to watch Peri's video Part 2. I just wanted to be sure it was ok with him before cross-posting: Lemon64 from today The posts from the patreon should be obvious.

Thanks. So has Peri been CEO for 24 hours yet? Did he say he was going to stop the Amiga war in 24 hours or just that ending the Amiga war would not be a problem? Has Hyperion given up their big lies yet as they cower in fear of the mighty Commodore and Amiga alliance?

I am looking forward to another entertaining video tomorrow. It is like watching a Commodore and Amiga themed soap opera. Popcorn.

@matthey

I am not involved with Peri directly -atm-, so I can only relate what the patreon has to say.

I think Hyperion has bigger problems than the threat of a potential Commodore/Amiga alliance.

I'll try to get a time for the Part 2 release, but I've run into another issue. I may have to address that as a priority tomorrow. Also we have that nasty time difference. So watch for an announcement in the usual places.

Take care,

#6

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@thread

Part 2 was just posted:

Wait… Who’s the New CEO of Commodore?! • Let's Buy Commodore Part 2

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AmigaOne X1000

So Commodore finally back in control by a Fan. We will see if this works out. I mean it must be a better situation now, than before.

Dont know how and if this will affect the Amiga world?

But interesting times regardless.

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@Thread

Made a poll for C= (not Amiga) devices you would buy

http://poll-maker.com/poll5524716x86014571-163

Maybe some people can spread this link to other C= related pages.

Thank you for reading

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 28-Jun-2025 at 11:56 AM.

I'm sure his intentions are noble, but he seems incredibly naive. If you can raise 7 figures for this, spend it on something of value, like investment in AmigaOS. Don't piss it away on buying a dead brand.

I hope Mike keeps well away from this.

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@Mobileconnect

Quote:

Mobileconnect wrote: .... If you can raise 7 figures for this, spend it on something of value, like investment in AmigaOS. Don't piss it away on buying a dead brand.

In a normal world you would be absolutely right, I believe a C64 retro product could be made without the C= brand name, but after I experienced how 'Amiga Name Followers' clang to the name, I'm not sure any more.

@Mobileconnect

Quote:

I'm sure his intentions are noble, but he seems incredibly naive. If you can raise 7 figures for this

I kinda agree, i mean i know there is value left in the brand, but if it more than say £3 Million, i think they overpaid, plus the more it is, the more pressure on getting that money / investment back and branding anything they can think of Commodore. I hope it work out.

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@Mobileconnect

Quote:

Mobileconnect wrote: If you can raise 7 figures for this, ....

.... those investor will want that money back with lots of dividends....

And you just can't make that kinda money with serving "the community" products they may actually need at reasonable prices.

So expect either fast breakdown or just more C= branded crap + legal actions against other entities selling C= branded crap.

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@jingof

https://hothardware.com/news/beloved-commodore-may-rise-from-the-ashes

The list of persons involved are quite interesting.

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@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote: And you just can't make that kinda money with serving "the community" products they may actually need at reasonable prices. So expect either fast breakdown or just more C= branded crap + legal actions against other entities selling C= branded crap.

That's exactly what might happen.

Instead of a tablet, Laptop, PC, mobile phone with at least a C= theme and a C64 software emulator, we might see the lowest crap with a C= sticker on it.

Commodore was never a first class brand, the C64 was never the best home computer possible but I fear it could end in cheap and crappy devices with C= name stickers on them.

We will see, that's all we can do.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 28-Jun-2025 at 10:09 PM.

Quote:

pixie wrote: The list of persons involved are quite interesting.

Bill Herd & Jeri Ellsworth are names who are knowing a lot about C= 8-Bit silicon but I don't know who of all those names could do market research and start a production.

@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote: @jingof https://hothardware.com/news/beloved-commodore-may-rise-from-the-ashes The list of persons involved are quite interesting.

From Commodore - The Final Years,

Commodore’s LSI group would now attempt to create new graphics
and microprocessor chips in CMOS to complement the 4502. “Ted
authorized work on the C65 chipset,� says Gardei.

Although Ted Lenthe gave the project an official go ahead, it did
not appear on any official project schedule yet. In fact, it would
remain under wraps until it was more developed and Lenthe could
build up support from management. Not even Gerard Bucas or Henri
Rubin would be aware of it until later.

For the first time in years, a new Commodore computer would
emerge from the semiconductor group, rather than the system
engineering group. A similar thing had happened in the early 1980s
when three chip guys, Al Charpentier, Robert Yannes, and their boss
Charles Winterble, had proposed the VIC-20 and C64 computers.
Those engineers had developed their system in secret, away from
the system engineering group, who at the time were focused on
higher end, expensive machines. History was about to repeat itself.


Two groups i.e.
- Semiconductor group, known as CSG (Commodore Semiconductor Group).
- System engineering group.

The system engineering group took over the Amiga line, which was responsible for CBM's 8-bit business microcomputers and the C900.

Albert Charpentier co-founded Ensoniq after CSG/MOS. In January 1998, Ensoniq Corp. was acquired by Creative Technology Ltd. for $77 million.

Last edited by Hammer on 29-Jun-2025 at 12:54 AM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Source for this? In the past I've already asked you who ordered starting the C65, but you haven't provided any detail. It's in the Commodore - The Final Years book by Brian Bagnall. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1462758959/commodore-the-final-years-book The Commodore - The Final Years book reveals Commodore's business structure and various management separations. From Commodore - The Final Years, Conceiving the Next C64 [...] CSG's LSI group's "boss", Ted Lenthe allowed C65 R&D. [...] For the first time in years, a new Commodore computer would emerge from the semiconductor group, rather than the system engineering group. A similar thing had happened in the early 1980s when three chip guys, Al Charpentier, Robert Yannes, and their boss Charles Winterble, had proposed the VIC-20 and C64 computers Notice the "system engineering group" vs the "semiconductor group".

I see. It shows where the best engineers were working.
Quote:

https://vintageapple.org/byte/pdf/198806_Byte_Magazine_Vol_13-06_New_Benchmarks_Ultra_High-speed_Modems.pdf Byte magazine June 1988, page 370 of 404, shows VGA clones' prices in USD e.g. Paradise VGA Pro = $352 Sigma VGA H = $255 Video 7 Vega VGA = $252 STB VGA EM = $299 Hercules VGA = $245 Paradise VGA+ = $238

Which proves that there was still a good market for advanced consumer graphics, which a properly equipped Amiga could have offered at a better price and more efficiently.
Quote:

Quote: Same as above: source for this? A2000's 1988 ECS productivity mode demonstration information is from the Commodore - The Final Years book by Brian Bagnall.

I know this, but the question was more towards this:

There's a reason why CSG's management kept C65 R&D in stealth mode against other Commodore managers.

which you've clarified on one of your last comment.
Quote:

Rubin was able to demonstrate Productivity Mode on both the Hi-Res chipset in an Amiga 2000 computer around early Q4 1988. Rubin ignored Amiga's core action games revenue generation in his quest for ECS "Productivity Mode" + Amber flicker fixer + A2024 display mode.

I don't share the same opinion: he was the one organizing the meeting to start the next Amiga chipset.

As you stated, Commodore was busy with A LOT of projects in parallel: the "hires chip / productivity mode" was just one of them.
Quote:

Cost-reduced Mac IIsi (UMA 256 color 640x480p graphics) and Mac LC (discrete 256/512KB VRAM with 16/256/65,536 color graphics**)'s 1990 releases would spoil the A3000's 1990 release. **256KB VRAM has 256 colors 512 x 384p, 16 colors 640x480p. **512KB VRAM has 65,536 colors at 512 x 384p, 256 colors at 640x480p. Mac LC I unit sales have closed the gap with Apple's best-selling classic Macs. Mac LC II was Apple's best-selling Mac model in 1992. ----------- Bill Sydnes, Jeff Frank, and Herni Rubin have mis-calculated.

See above: not really (seea above). And Sydnes and Frank were involved only MUCH LATE, as YOU have already reported.

You need to contextualize, and NOT putting everything together.
Quote:

Quote: Oh... "no new chips", right? BTW, Amber was designed for the A3000 and AFTER that released as a standalone component on board. That's not correct from the internal development POV. Amber is new since it's common with the A2000's Amber addon card. As an add-on chip or add-on card, Amber doesn't change the Amiga OCS design. ECS "productivity mode" doesn't need Amber. Amber is an add-on hack for 16 color 640x200/256p OCS mode. Henri Rubin focused on A2000 add-ons. A3000 PAL in 50 Hz with Amber doesn't work with the IBM VGA monitor standard, since it only works with NTSC's 60 Hz modes. My family had an IBM PS/2 Model 55SX with an IBM VGA monitor. From Commodore - The Final Year Amber Flicker Fixer By 1988, the Amiga was starting to lose its graphical lead over other computers. Months earlier, in April 1987, VGA was released for the IBM PS/2 computer. This soon became a graphical standard for other PC clones. VGA produced 640×480 screens with 16 colors, and 320×200 with 256 colors. And most importantly, the display was non-interlaced, unlike Amiga’s Hi-Res graphics. (skip) Commodore made an initial attempt at correcting the flicker with the A2080 monitor, which used high persistence phosphor to retain the image on the screen longer. This worked well for still interlaced images, but users could often detect smearing of moving images, such as a mouse cursor or when text scrolled. Hedley Davis had already created a “flicker fixer� with his Hedley Hi-Res (while also increasing the screen resolution), by taking the output signal from the Amiga video port, converting it from interlaced video into progressive scan, and outputting it to a monitor. With the upcoming Hi-Res chipset on the horizon, the engineers began to worry that it did not provide non-interlaced, flicker free displays. Hedley Davis had previously proposed a general deinterlacer card for the A2000 to Henri Rubin, who had noncommittally told Davis that it “may end up being very important.� Hedley Davis' general deinterlacer card is for the A2000 before the A3000. I told you Commodore management has an A3000 exclusivity mindset. From Commodore - The Final Year, Scott Hood, the junior engineer working on the A2320 flicker fixer, would continue developing it not only as a board for the Amiga 2000 to allow the Amiga to use a multisync monitor, but he would also create an ASIC chip called Amber, which would be used onboard the Amiga 3000. Amber does not address SNES/PC VGA's 256 color display modes. HAM6 has restrictive color selection rules.

Nevertheless, it's a NEW chip. Like MANY others.

But see more below my reply on the next Comment that you've written and which I report now.
Quote:

Hammer wrote: @matthey Quote: Commodore 65 development efforts should have gone into the Amiga, especially the AA+ chip development efforts which may have saved Commodore. C65's graphics chipset R&D started in 1987 and was done behind Herni Rubin's back during "read my lips, no new chips". C65's 8 bit plane graphics chipset R&D was important for AGA since Commodore management booted out the original Amiga graphics engineers, and the LSI team needed to familiarize themselves with Amiga bitplane architecture. ECS's "productivity mode" with a separate 64-color palette indicates not being familiar with OCS's existing 4096 palette design. Think of C128's high resolution mode being separate from C64's VIC-II mode. The brain drain is real. AA Lisa's productivity mode shares the common 16.7 million color palette with other display modes. From the Commodore - The Final Year book 1. A Commodore software engineer developed raytracing software that scales with network Amigas instead of helping to fix OS bugs. This software engineer has the pink slip. Before SIGGRAPH (August) 1990. 2. During 1988, Commodore Braunschweig (Germany) worked on the Transputer project. This accelerator card would turn an Amiga 2000 into a high-performance workstation based on a parallel processor developed by Tim King, the engineer who supplied TRIPOS for the Amiga. 3. During February 1988, the Amiga 800 was spec'ed with a 68020 @14Mhz and ECS, retail price targeted USD $1000 price range. 14Mhz is part of cost reduction like A1200's 14Mhz 68EC020. The Amiga 800 proposal was cancelled by management since Motorola failed to deliver $35-priced 68020-16. 4. A3000's directionless next graphics chipset R&D during early 1988 From Commodore - The Final Years book The A3000 hinged on the engineers creating a new chipset for the machine, but the engineers arguments continued since September with no one able to agree on a spec for the new chipset. At the time, Porter told Bucas and Rubin, “Can you say ‘can of worms’? … Welland and Hedley will still be arguing by February about the next video chips.� The problem was, there were at least three different proposals for a hi-res chipset by three different engineers. Bob Welland wanted to begin fresh with a new architecture. Hedley Davis wanted to revise the existing Agnus/Denise architecture. Similarly, George Robbins wanted to revise the Agnus/Denise architecture based on a 32-bit architecture. No one could agree. With this situation, it looked like the next generation chipset had every possibility of being bogged down for months. Porter had previously hoped to show a prototype of an Amiga 3000 at the Hanover show in March 1988, but now it looked like that timeline was overly optimistic. ---------- The system engineering group's management leadership is missing in action. Meanwhile, CSG LSI group has C65's 8 bitplane graphics chipset R&D progressing in stealth mode. From Commodore - The Final Years book, Porter specifically wanted 1000 by 800 resolution with 8 bit planes and 16 million colors—something to exceed the current competition. Of importance would be keeping the new video technology compatible with existing commercial Amiga software. All of these plans would be discussed at Commodore’s worldwide engineering meeting, scheduled for September 22, 1987 at the Embassy Suites hotel in New York. The meeting was called by Henri Rubin, and those invited included the main West Chester engineers, along with engineers from Germany and Japan.

You should read between the lines, extract the key information, and draw the lines between the dots.

Here we know that Rubin was advocating the next chipset, and that his engineers weren't even able to decide on which direction to go.
Plus, they had no clue on how the Amiga chipset really worked, and that's why they are talking about the "can of worms".
Whereas the LSI team not only was able to understand it, but in ONE YEAR was able to reproduce part of the Amiga technology and even extend it.
The LSI group was the one involved also on the Productivity Mode, and were able to fix the issue which the Amiga team had, suggesting the 4 colours / 6 bits palette.
Last but not really least, they were needed and involved on defining the specs of the new Amiga chipset, and worked on Lisa.

In short: the Amiga engineers which were working at the chipset after that the original team was kicked out where the real problem! INEPT and INCAPABLE people, which wheren't even able to UNDERSTAND how the chipset work. Not even talking about extending it, since they had COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IDEAS!

How Rubin could have done something good with such bunch of INCOMPETENTS?!?

FOUR YEARS spent, since when they starting writing the specs 'til Sydnes & Frank jumped in, GOING NOWHERE!

Do you finally see what/where was the problem? Or do you want to continue defend your heroes?

Next Amiga that Amiga Commore will made will be something like Amiga One.
With risc cpu with new graphics made for 3d games
Amiga Technologies just switch from custom risc to off the shell risc
and from custom 3d graphics to off the shell 3d graphics
simply because it was cheaper to get and Amiga Technologies was out of many after Commodore bankruptcy
ppc was choosen 30 years ago by Amiga Technologies and the rest is history

all this trolls that waste time on attack on ppc should hard work next step on amiga like on pc
it should be just amiga gui and graphics on top of unix

so stop trolling start working on mui

@ppcamiga1

Yawn, you pretty much are like a broken record aren't you.

Last edited by Amiboy on 29-Jun-2025 at 10:57 AM.

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@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: Next Amiga that Amiga Commore will made will be something like Amiga One.

So, you're advocating for another complete FAILURE, right?
Quote:

With risc cpu with new graphics made for 3d games Amiga Technologies just switch from custom risc to off the shell risc and from custom 3d graphics to off the shell 3d graphics simply because it was cheaper to get and Amiga Technologies was out of many after Commodore bankruptcy

No, simply because people there were NOT able to understand how the CPU market was going.

For graphics/GPU we already know that it was too late and it was (and even more now) impossible to proceed with something different, because the PC competition on that area killed every contender.
Quote:

ppc was choosen 30 years ago by Amiga Technologies and the rest is history

Sure: a history of FAILURES, as we know very well...
Quote:

all this trolls that waste time on attack on ppc

I've already told you other times that it doesn't make any sense beating a DEAD CORPSE...
Quote:

should hard work next step on amiga like on pc

Why don't YOU do it, since YOU like so much?

This thread talks about what next with the "new Commodore" (SIC!), so it's the perfect place to talk about the next scam... ehr... next cow to milk... ehr... something (!) with the Commodore sticker attached.
Quote:

it should be just amiga gui and graphics on top of unix

As I've already said, Unix is shit. And since you like that shit, then YOU should work on it.

Sic et simpliciter.
Quote:

so stop trolling start working on mui

As I've already repeated I don't know how many times, MUI is a CLOSED and PRIVATE project, so ONLY HIS AUTHOR CAN WORK ON IT!

How much difficult is for a hamster to understand it? Oops... a rhetorical question.

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

t should be just amiga gui and graphics on top of unix

Well, Commodore was done with their unix adventures and with PA-RISC Amiga they were going for the brand new operating system of the era.. Windows NT.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Albert Charpentier co-founded ...

Yes, at least someone who knows how to found a business.

kolla Quote:

Well, Commodore was done with their unix adventures and with PA-RISC Amiga they were going for the brand new operating system of the era.. Windows NT.

The Commodore Unix/workstation attempt was sabotaged by not producing a high end Amiga chipset. Jay Miner wanted to develop the Ranger chipset but Commodore likely steered him to work on a monochrome "business" chipset instead. Some Commodore engineers say the Ranger chipset did not exist or was the monochrome chipset but I do not believe it. This monochrome only chipset led to the ECS with "productivity" mode which kept most of the original OCS compatibility. There was still no chipset memory bandwidth improvement with ECS as Commodore targeted a low price for the masses to turn the Amiga into the next C64 but this meant that it did not have higher resolutions and refresh rates which were becoming more important for business and were mandatory for workstations. By the time the Amiga 3000UX was out, at least 256 colors, higher resolutions and better refresh rates were needed to be competitive in the workstation market. The Amiga 3000UX had an optional A24010 256 color high resolution graphics card but it lacked economies of scale as it was primarily used for just Unix on the Amiga. If the Amiga chipset had been improved to AA+ specs and cost reduced to a single chip chipset or 68k Amiga SoC, it could have been cost reduced saving up to $100 USD off the price vs increasing ~$1000 with the addition of the Commodore A2410 graphics card (the card required development resources too). The AA+ chipset was considered low end by Commodore (AAA was the high end) but it likely would have been adequate for a workstation and should have been cheaper than a PC graphics card (AGA was ~$27 to produce in 1991 for the core Lisa, Alice and Paula chips and this would have decreased with integration making AA+ cheaper). The performance and features would have been much more competitive for a workstation or desktop too. The Commodore 3000(UX), Commodore 600 and AmigaNOne computers are good examples of producing noncompetitive hardware resulting in predictable market failures.

An Hombre PA-RISC console may have included a 68k Amiga SoC to gain compatibility with the large library of Amiga software since it is so cheap, likely would have still used the low end AmigaOS (68k and/or PA-RISC native) and may have retained the Amiga name but I expect high end PA-RISC desktop/workstation hardware using Windows NT would have had less of a chance of being labeled an Amiga with perhaps everything from the Amiga discarded. That is likely what Commodore would have done. They did not put Amiga labels on their PC line of computers so why does My Retro Computer Ltd and the new Commodore want to put Amiga labels on their x86-64 hardware with Linux?

Last edited by matthey on 29-Jun-2025 at 07:19 PM.