@ppcamiga1

Quote:

many years ago MS and Apple switch to VMS and unix

Windows NT has design influence from DEC's VMS and MICA.

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they just port gui and graphics and cut off everything below this is what should be done on amiga instead of aros x86 and emu68 at switch to not compatible with old amiga software cpu like x86/arm

32-bit Windows NT is backward compatible with Win16 and basic DOS VM.

You could run the original LOTUS 1-2-3 executable from 1983 on Windows 7 and you had a fully functional spreadsheet for under 88kB.

64-bit Windows NT removes Win16 and DOS VM, but gains WoW64 (Windows 32-bit on Windows 64-bit) subsystem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WoW64

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@matthey

Quote:

The 68060 never received good compiler support and I expect Motorola was focused on integer compiler support which is more important. Without good compiler support, I expect SpecFP benchmarks would be poor.

68060's 4-byte fetch per cycle from instruction cache was an unnecessarily backward step from 68040. It's an easy trip over the 2 + 2 bytes instruction optimization.

AC68080 targeted this 68060 low-hanging fruit.

Quote:

However, the ByteMark benchmark is similar to the Spec benchmark and VBCC support code changes allowed the 68060 to come close to the performance of the P5 Pentium at the same clock speed for fp benchmarks.

Bytemark is not Quake or other similar 3D game engines with a mix of fixed-point and floating-point instructions.

There are reasons why SSE SIMD supports both fixed-point and floating-point instructions.

AC68080's design improvement shines with Quake.

Quote:

The P5 Pentium has a strong FPU but it is weak at integer compared to competitors with poor superscalar multi-issue, often 1-2 extra cycles for memory accesses and not as optimized of integer timings as FPU timings.

That argument didn't save Cyrix 6x86 when software sells hardware i.e. Quake.

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A 32-bit integer multiply on the P5 Pentium was 9 cycles where it was 2 cycles on the 68060. Quake used FMUL instead of integer multiply which would have been better performance on some competitors like the 68060.

Given the transistor budget and process tech, CPUs contain design compromises.

Pentium
FADD has 3 cycles. The last 2 cycles can overlap with subsequent floating-point instructions.
FIMUL has 6 cycles. The last 2 cycles can overlap with subsequent integer instructions.
FMUL has 3 cycles. The last 2 cycles can overlap with subsequent floating-point instructions.
FDIV is 19/33/39 cycles. 19 cycle is FP32.

For FPU's MUL and ADD, Pentium FPU is pipelined, and FDIV has out-of-order.

68060 FPU can only process a single instruction to its completion.

You didn't factor in the Pentium FPU pipeline advantage.

https://www.dosdays.co.uk/media/amd/AMD-K5_Processor_Technical_Reference_Manual_(November_1996).pdf

AMD K5 integer
IMUL reg, reg, imm
dispatch from decoder is 1 cycle,
execution time is 1 cycle,
result on the bus is 4 cycles.

IMUL reg, mem
dispatch from decoder is 1 cycle,
execution time is 2 cycle,
result on the bus is 4 cycles.

IMUL reg, reg, mem
dispatch from decoder is 1 cycle,
execution time is 2 cycle,
result on the bus is 4 cycles.

AMD K5 math-coprocessor
FMUL ST, ST(i)
dispatch from decoder is 1 cycle,
execution time is 2 cycle,
result on the bus is 8 cycles.

FMUL real_32
dispatch from decoder is 1 cycle,
execution time is 3 cycle,
result on the bus is 7 cycles.

FMUL real_64
dispatch from decoder is 1 cycle,
execution time is 4 cycle,
result on the bus is 10 cycles.

AMD K5's floating-point division (FDIV) implementation was notable for its use of a microcoded algorithm. Quake f__ked K5, worst on Cyrix 6x86.

AMD K5 used an infamous PR (Pentium Rating), ByteMark was in the mix.

https://thandor.net/benchmark/33
Quake demo3 benchmark
Intel Pentium 100 Mhz = 26.70 fps,
AMD K5 PR166 (116 Mhz) = 24.40 fps,
Cyrix/IBM 6x86 P200+ (166 Mhz) = 22.90 fps,
Cyrix/IBM 6x86 PR166 (133 Mhz) = 21.40 fps,

Due to the clock speed wall, K5 PR166 was quickly replaced by K6.
Like Pentium, K5 has at least a 5-stage pipeline, but the attained clock speed result is different from classic Pentium.

Last edited by Hammer on 05-Aug-2025 at 09:16 AM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: AmigaNONE is no hardware legacy with Commodore's Amiga hardware.

Amiga is a total different and independent brand name.

It was more like "Commodore Amiga" or "Commodore PET"

@Hammer

A great write up on the subject of Windows NT and its VMS inspired heritage.

https://www.itprotoday.com/server-virtualization/windows-nt-and-vms-the-rest-of-the-story

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VSI recently made the port of OpenVMS Galaxy for x86-64 available, and evaluation licenses are for free. https://vmssoftware.com

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@Hammer

I never use sprites, playfields etc in my code
my first amiga was 1200 so I started from 256 colors
I never ever care about 68k amiga hardware
it is ok
no - also ok it is no problem

I also check my notes
29 years ago in year 1996
I made something like this crap emu68
I made some code that use directly SVGA card from emulated 68k under dos uae
but soon I switch to linux on pc and lost sources for it
emu68 clowns may search for it maybe it is still possible to found this on net

@ppcamiga1

Baby, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I guess it’s time to visit you med and adjust your drug dose again. It

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: my first amiga was 1200

Your first and last Amiga was the A1200

Quote:

so I started from 256 colors I never ever care about 68k amiga hardware

We know this very well. You told us how the average Polish person in the early '90s was well-off enough to prefer a 386 IBM compatible with VGA at twice the price of the A1200. Which is why I am surprised that you were slumming it for a while with the no-chunky-pixels AGA.

You come across as a "Kool-Aid Drinker". After your brief flirtation with the Amiga dream machine, you went and joined the x86 cult. But you hated yourself for doing so which is why you so eagerly drank the PowerPC Kool-Aid to wash off the stench of mainstream commonality. The problem is, you trashed every other CPU architecture so much that your ego won't allow you to leave the PowerPC cult.

And to be perfectly honest, I'd rather you didn't join the 68k club, nor would I welcome your presence in the ARM or RISC V camps, and I am indifferent about you having a Windows/Linux x64 PC because the user base is so vast that the chances of us crossing paths are slim to none.

Last edited by agami on 06-Aug-2025 at 12:29 AM.

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All the way, with 68k

@AmigaMac

https://neilrieck.net/docs/dave_cutler-prism-mica-emerald-etc.html

History The Alpha on NT story has its roots back to the inception of NT. Dave Cutler, NT’s creator, was working on a new OS, code-named "Mica," for Digital Equipment. Digital intended Mica to be a successor to VMS and based it closely on VMS (thus, NT's strong roots in VMS). The Mica team worked at a Seattle-based location called DECwest, an office started by Cutler in the early 80s when he was working on Digital’s MicroVAX I project.

For some reason, Digital killed the Mica project. Seizing the opportunity, Microsoft picked up Dave Cutler and his Mica team and funded the continuation of the Mica project within Microsoft. A few years later, Windows NT was born. Digital, however, suspected that NT was actually Mica reborn and hired an OS specialist to determine the similarities. According to inside sources, many portions of NT’s code and even the comments were identical to Mica. As a result, Digital sued Microsoft. Microsoft and Digital settled out of court, and the result was the Digital/Microsoft Alliance.


Microsoft hired Dave Cutler and his Mica team and continues to fund the Mica project with a Win16 backward-compatible target. Win32 didn't exist in 1988.

The meme for Microsoft being the Borg is true i.e. "We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us". This is also applicable for PC ASIC hardware vendors when they are purchasing/stealing workstation-related IP.

Last edited by Hammer on 06-Aug-2025 at 01:16 AM.

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@OneTimer1

Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote: Amiga is a total different and independent brand name. It was more like "Commodore Amiga" or "Commodore PET"

That doesn't negate Commodore-Amiga Inc's Amiga custom chipset heritage.

AmigaDOS was lifted from TRIPOS.

TRIPOS refers to the Tripos system of undergraduate courses and examinations, which is unique to the UK's Cambridge University.

TRIPOS provided features such as pre-emptive multi-tasking (using strict-priority scheduling), a hierarchical file system, and multiple command line interpreters.

Team Amiga effectively added WIMP GUI layers to TRIPOS. AmigaOS's TRIPOS has its British academia OS origins, co-funded by the British taxpayer!

NextStep has US academia Unix OS origins i.e. "poor" US academia wanted a cheap Unix clone without paying for AT&T's expensive Unix license.

Windows NT has DEC VMS /Mica commercial origins.

Last edited by Hammer on 06-Aug-2025 at 01:30 AM.

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@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: I also check my notes 29 years ago in year 1996 I made something like this crap emu68 I made some code that use directly SVGA card from emulated 68k under dos uae but soon I switch to linux on pc and lost sources for it emu68 clowns may search for it maybe it is still possible to found this on net

DOS UAE used CWSDPMI, a 32-bit DOS extender. DOS Quake used a CWSDPMI variant i.e. CWSDPR0. DOS Quake has VESA support.

Emu68 does NOT emulate the Amiga custom chipset like DOS UAE. Emu68 P96 RTG is an Amiga native driver for Broadcom's VideoCore IV and VI.

Last edited by Hammer on 06-Aug-2025 at 01:44 AM.

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@matthey

Quote:

According to Agner Fog's x86 instruction tables, Bonnell's FMUL is not fully pipelined like the P5 Pentium FMUL and has a reciprocal throughput of 2 instead of 1. That is, a new FMUL instruction can not always begin execution every cycle. I would rather have the 68060 non-pipelined FMUL with 3 cycle latency than a semi-pipelined FMUL with 5 cycle latency that can only execute a new FMUL every other cycle. The P5 Pentium has a similar semi-pipelined FMUL but both FMUL and FADD only have a 3 cycle latency. The much deeper Bonnell pipeline increased some FPU latencies. It would be interesting to see the original Quake on a P5 CPU vs Bonnell CPU core at the same clock speed. The original P5 Pentium used 3.1 million transistors vs a single core Bonnell CPU using 47.2 million transistors but most of that is for caches and SIMD support including register files which account for 50% of the die area.

Your argument is not realistic when Intel Bonnell didn't win the mainstream Xbox One and PS4 game console contracts.

Both Microsoft and Sony are NOT stupid enough to use Intel's Bonnell microarchitecture for a 3D game console.

AMD's BobCat microarchitecture (released in 2011) was extended and evolved into Jaguar microarchitecture (released in 2013).

The reason why I use "game console" when I frame my arguments is due to the mass-produced Amiga's BOM costs are very close to the game console's BOM cost. Amiga Homber's BOM cost target doubles down on the game console BOM cost targets.

PS4's $100 BOM cost for AMD APU in 2012 is about $62 in 1993! Similar to Amiga Homber's $50 BOM cost range for the two ASICs.

Reference
https://gamingbolt.com/ps4s-apu-is-3-times-larger-than-any-other-chip-created-with-similar-tech-is-a-monster
Title: PS4’s APU is 3 Times Larger Than Any Other Chip Created With Similar Tech, Costs $100.

Imagine you're sitting in a meeting to spec PS1, and you're arguing for pros vs cons for each of the offerings, and there's a game console BOM cost limit. Ken Kutaragi stated that his meetings are dominated by performance vs cost debates.

Similar situation for the Sega Saturn's system integration phase i.e. SuperH2 beating 68030.

Dr Ed rejected Motorola 88000 as being too expensive for A1200/CD32 replacement.

It doesn't matter that 68040 consumes about 1 million transistors when the asking price is insane.

During 1997-1998, the original Xbox's BOM cost was $20 for the AMD CPU and $30 for NV GPU. AMD specifically attacked MIPS (LSI Logic's CoreWare MIPS) price points. Intel followed suit with a #metoo offering. You wouldn't see Motorola doing that.

In modern times, Intel offered competitive PS6 offerings and promised the PC market a Strix Halo-like competitor. Intel's PS6 offer reached the final round and lost to AMD's PS6 offer.

Intel's PS6 offer is pretty good.

Quote:

Windows and Linux were not SMP capable until the support was added. The AmigaOS can be changed to add SMP.

Windows NT is a completely new design with origins from DEC's SMP capable VMS and MICA.

Windows NT's 16-bit PC software environment is placed in a virtual machine box.

NT 3.1 only supports vendor-specific SMP hardware out of the box for the obvious reason that MPS was only finalized about a year after NT 3.1 came out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udGXB2LlntU
Running Windows NT 3.1 on (almost) modern hardware, Intel Ivy Bridge i7 on bare metal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uICMhdtR0U8
In this video, you will see apps from the earliest version of Windows NT (3.1) being run in Windows 11

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michalsc Quote:

It's funny to see how you turn every thread on this forum to exactly the same academic discussion as always. Let me remind you the topic here: The "Let's Buy Commodore" Project

I agree. This is not the right forum section for me to correct Hammer. There should be a banner for the "Amiga News & Events" section saying that general discussion should be kept close to the topic and to a minimum rather than having nearly 600 posts. Back to the topic, I believe this thread is in the wrong section as the new Commodore is barely Amiga related. The more appropriate section perhaps should be the "Amiga Inc. offshoot" section.

Amiga Inc. offshoot
For discussion about Amiga Inc. , CUSA and other products and companies using Amiga brand licensed from Amiga Inc. NOTE: Topics posted here will not be listed on the homepage

The last thread in that section was the "Term Sheet for New Acquisition of Amiga Games Inc." about retro 68k Amiga games using emulation.

Term Sheet for New Acquisition of Amiga Games Inc.
https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37892&forum=44&372

The thread above is Amiga related, more so than this thread, yet this section does not display topics on the AW homepage. Ironically, Hyperion survives off the 68000 compiled AmigaOS mostly for emulation and AmigaKit A600GS and A1200NG hardware also use emulation and no AmigaOS/Kickstart yet do not get classified in the Amiga Inc offshoot section. Hyperion was the Robin Hood like savior from the Amiga Inc oppressors according to Ben even though it looks like lies used to steal the Amiga IP from them with community support and it shows with the non display of Amiga Inc related topics on the homepage. A non Amiga related section may be the most appropriate for several threads but it really is a time capsule dog house showing the Ben manipulated bias of this forum. Trevor killed the chance at accessible and affordable Amiga hardware for the Amiga masses. Christian "Peri" Simpson provided the faithful ultimate C64 and Trevor gave us the AmigaNOne and AmigaNOwhere emulation. We could just see the Amiga corruption and chaos including this thread and the lack of forum moderation as the last whimper of the Amiga killed by Trevor's lost decades and just continue to post off topic ignoring that anything is wrong.

Last edited by matthey on 06-Aug-2025 at 04:12 AM.

@michalsc

szulc stop trolling start working on zune

@matthey

provide amiga like os on arm as good as at least android 9 or get lost

my first amiga was 1200
I started from 256 colors
I don't care about bitplanes and chipset

I use amiga ppc because it works like my amiga 1200 only better because 1000 times faster

@ppcamiga1

Check your notes. The best software developer of the whole universe, I mean you, did ported MUI or Zune for UNIX 29 years ago already, right after accessing SVGA from UAE.

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: @michalsc szulc stop trolling start working on zune

Wasn't that a music player?

Last time I checked Michal wasn't on your payroll!?! You don't get to tell him what to do!

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@ppcamiga1

Amiga is not Mac.

170 Euros for NXP/Freescale PPC e5500 quad core 1.4 GHz half-baked SoC is a joke.

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