@RobertB

Quote:

RobertB shared: https://slapsoft.com/c64_sales.html

Nice numbers. I’d estimate that at this point or with a couple hundred more they will have achieved greater market penetration than the Apollo FPGA solutions.

Which kind of makes sense. A renewed C64 is more of a nostalgia buy than and Apollo accelerator or SA solution. And in the very large consumer market that is USA, Commodore 64 did way better than all Amiga models combined.

It’ll be interesting to see how The 1200 Maxi will fare.

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All the way, with 68k

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: c64 ultimate is nice real hardware not emulator

Mr Troll.
All hardware is real hardware.

Sincerely,

A person who walks across the bridge to the other side.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@agami

agami stop trolling start working on zune.
c64 ultimate is nice real hardware not emulator like emu68
accept that

what I see here there are some dumb people that want developers to switch to emulator
from developer pov problem with emulator is simple
it will be always slower than native code
no reasons to waste time for emulator
it is always better to use native code even on windows or unix
it is year 2025 not 1994 windows is nice os much better than any amiga like os
want to switch to arm provide something at least on win xp level

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: what I see here there are some dumb people that want developers to switch to emulator

Not sure what you mean by that, but there are good reasons a developer might want to use an emulator. I used emulators to develop code for the Amstrad CPC and Mattel Aquarius and they made the job much easier.

Quote:

from developer pov problem with emulator is simple it will be always slower than native code

You mean native on the host? Sure, but when you have compute power to spare it doesn't matter. There are reasons you might not want to use the host's native code.

Quote:

it is always better to use native code even on windows or unix

Strange then that so many developers choose not to.

According the TIOBE Index the most popular programming language by far is Python at 26%. Assembly language comes in dead last at 1%. Python is an interpreted language which is much slower than native code, yet people love it.

Quote:

it is year 2025 not 1994 windows is nice os much better than any amiga like os want to switch to arm provide something at least on win xp level

AmigaOS is the best OS for the Amiga. Some people like it so much that they want to run it on other hardware too. What's wrong with that?

IMO Windows XP was the best version of Windows (for PCs powerful enough to run it). My development machine runs XP. Unfortunately modern web browsers don't run on it, which is why I use Linux for that.

BigD Quote:

AmigaKit claimed A1200 as a trademark even though it's one letter and a string of numbers and it seems they also start cease and desist tactics if you use the word 'Amiga' when attached to a store or repair business (Amigastore.eu were lucky as were Amiga on the Lake or is it just UK businesses that are an issue for them?). They also bought Amiga.org so lay claim to the doube tick 'checkmark' logo of which Amiga.org gained permission to use on its website! Therefore, it gets splattered on all their goods and packaging!

AmigaKit and Hyperion are trademarking Amiga related IP even though this is clearly "challenging" "ownership", a Hyperion prohibited action in the 2009 Amiga Inc v Hyperion VOF settlement agreement as I posted in my previous post in this thread. Even where it may be legal as is the case for Amiga model numbers like "A1200" in the UK and significant enough variations of the checkmark logo, these are clearly copycat/counterfeit Amiga IP products and they are not clear who owns the trademark and have likely conspired to deliberately obfuscate the Amiga IP related ownership.

https://sites.google.com/site/amigadocuments/hyperion-entertainment Quote:

Following a stageworthy secret 2010 agreement between Mr. Ben Hermans and Mr. Robert Trevor Dickinson, British company A-EON Technology Ltd was set up to replace Belgian company A-EON Technology CVBA (co-owned by Mr. Ben Hermans and Mr. Robert Trevor Dickinson). Mr. Robert Trevor Dickinson and his wife Ms. Christine Dickinson would own 50% of the new business, while Mr. Matthew Leaman (dba "AmigaKit") would own the remaining 50%. By 2012 the British partners were conspiring with their Belgian affiliate to alter the trademark legal footnotes so that these would no longer credit Amiga, Inc. (as required by the 2009 Settlement Agreement): "In negotiating for the purchase and license, (Mr. Matthew Leaman) asked Hermans in an email on March 12, 2012, whether he should attribute ownership of the trademarks as follows: 'AmigaOS and Boing Ball logo are trademarks of Amiga, Inc. as licensed from Hyperion Entertainment CVBA. All rights reserved.' Hermans replied the next day, 'With respect to the license text, I would suggest "Produced under license from Hyperion Entertainment CVBA. AmigaOS and Boing Ball logo are valid trademarks. All rights reserved." At this point in time, Hyperion does no longer wish to refer to Amiga Inc as owners of the trademarks...'" British affiliated firms A-EON Technology Ltd and Leaman Computing Ltd dba "AmigaKit" thus modified their texts, removing the references to "Amiga, Inc."

This conspiracy to not recognize Amiga trademark ownership continues.

Rainbow Double Tick / Checkmark Drinking Mug
Trademark info: ® symbol for trademark but from who?
https://www.amigakit.com/rainbow-double-tick-checkmark-drinking-p-12656.html

Optical Scroll Mouse USB (Black)
Trademark info: Checkmark logo with no trademark info
https://amigakit.amiga.store/optical-scroll-mouse-black-p-1329.html?aksid=agu9svboafeqrbtlbevifvuist¤cy=GBP&aksid=agu9svboafeqrbtlbevifvuist

A1200 Logo Branded Mouse Mat
Trademark info: "A1200 is a trade mark of AmigaKit Ltd in United Kingdom, Australia, Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg and/or other countries. Double tick is a trade mark, used under licence." and "Our range of A500â„¢, A600â„¢, A1200â„¢ and A4000â„¢ logo branded mouse mats. Styled to match our branded range of dust covers."
https://amigakit.amiga.store/a1200-logo-branded-mouse-p-726.html?aksid=agu9svboafeqrbtlbevifvuist¤cy=GBP&aksid=agu9svboafeqrbtlbevifvuist

https://amigakit.amiga.store/hard-drive-card-preppedformatted-p-863.html?currency=GBP
Trademark info: "A1200, A600 are trade marks of AmigaKit Ltd. Double tick used under licence."
https://amigakit.amiga.store/hard-drive-card-preppedformatted-p-863.html?currency=GBP

AMIGA.org Drinking Mug (Blue)
Trademark info: none
https://www.amigakit.com/amigaorg-drinking-blue-p-1209.html?currency=GBP&aksid=681208cq6on41leobmn08op9et

AMIGA.org Pin Badge
Trademark info: "AMIGA.org logo is a trade mark of AmigaKit Ltd and A-EON Technology Ltd in the United Kingdom and/or other countries."
https://www.amigakit.com/amigaorg-badge-p-91299.html?currency=GBP

Hyperion could not have been sublicensed the checkmark logo to AmigaKit unlike the boing ball logo. Even Hyperion is not accused of trying to trademark the checkmark logo so AmigaKit most likely either licenses it from the real Amiga IP owner or trademarked their own checkmark variant(s). Which do you think is more likely?

AmigaKit uses lots of Amiga IP with inadequate trademark info increasing the chances of counterfeit products, it looks like sells Amiga IP products outside of where their limited trademarks are claimed to be registered and draws people in by using Amiga IP domain names like AmigaKit,com, AmigaStore.com and AmigaShop.com.

Quote:

Google search: Is the AmigaKit use of AmigaKit, AmigaStore.com and Amigashop.com a trademark violation of the Amiga trademark? AI Overview It's a complex situation, but yes, it's likely that AmigaKit's use of "AmigaKit," "AmigaStore.com," and "Amigashop.com" could be considered a trademark violation, or at least, a point of contention, with the original Amiga trademark. While AmigaKit has registered some trademarks, including "Amiga Kit" and "Amiga Store," it's not clear if these registrations fully cover the scope of their usage, especially in relation to the broader "Amiga" trademark.

Collusion and conspiracy to defraud the Amiga IP owner?

BigD Quote:

Hyperion believe that the 2009 settlement gives them free reign to develop all AmigaOS sources to their hearts content as well as threaten anyone that releases hardware bundled with any AmigaOS! Pretty toxic behaviour all around but I guess if parent companies don't defend their IP/trademarks etc then this is what happens even in cottage industries sized markets!

It can be expensive to defend IP in smaller markets. I believe it is highly likely Cloanto will win in court and Hyperion will owe them a substantial sum of money for IP violations but the conspirators are already planning for Hyperion's bankruptcy so Cloanto receives nothing.

https://sites.google.com/site/amigadocuments/hyperion-entertainment Quote:

In other secret agreements, in 2019 Mr. Robert Trevor Dickinson, who also was a shareholder of Belgian Hyperion Entertainment CVBA, started preparing for a possible bankruptcy of Hyperion Entertainment by moving assets out of the troubled Belgian company and securing immediate access to the AmigaOS 4 source code. In April 2024, as a bankruptcy of Hyperion Entertainment CVBA appeared to be imminent, Mr. Matthew Leaman described how "work has been done over the last 6 years in anticipation of this (bankruptcy) event happening".

It appears that this is not a single amateur IP squatter business, like Commodore IP thieves, but a syndicate of interconnected businesses created to conspire and collude to steal the Amiga IP. The contrast between the legitimate and criminal Commodore/Amiga IP businesses could not be clearer.

Legitimate businesses which own, license and respect Commodore/Amiga IP
Cloanto
Amiga Corporation
Commodore International Corporation (the new Commodore so far respect IP)
Retro Games Limited

Commodore/Amiga IP squatters, counterfeiters and con men businesses
Hyperion
AmigaKit
A-Eon
Commodore Business Machines LTD (British, multiple incarnations) S.R.L (Italy)
Commodore Engineering (Italy)

Besides #6's many posts about the Italian Commodore con men, there is a long and detailed article about them at the following link.

https://www.nostalgianerd.com/commodore-heist/

The Commodore IP squatters have been bold but Hyperion and AmigaKit Amiga IP squatters have become much bolder recently too. There was no similar article for the Amiga heist even though the Amiga heist has been more organized and successful than the Commodore one. The best Amiga heist source remains the Amiga Documents.

https://sites.google.com/site/amigadocuments/home

Many AmigaOS 4 supporters still do not want to believe and Amiga people continue to stand up for Trevor despite financial sources leading back to him. The "Mr Clean" crime lord distances himself from shenanigans in organized crime fashion.

bhabbott Quote:

Not sure what you mean by that, but there are good reasons a developer might want to use an emulator. I used emulators to develop code for the Amstrad CPC and Mattel Aquarius and they made the job much easier.

Emulators are a software tool with valid reasons to use them but they usually emulate hardware. Most developed software is written for hardware with very little written for virtual machine emulation. Virtual machines are primarily used for very high performance hardware and trade performance/latency for flexibility and this is not a good trade off for lower end hardware. If the return of affordable Amiga hardware for the masses which developers target is the goal, forget about virtual machine emulation.

bhabbott Quote:

You mean native on the host? Sure, but when you have compute power to spare it doesn't matter. There are reasons you might not want to use the host's native code.

So you expect everyone to pay for more hardware than they need so they have compute power to spare?

bhabbott Quote:

Strange then that so many developers choose not to. According the TIOBE Index the most popular programming language by far is Python at 26%. Assembly language comes in dead last at 1%. Python is an interpreted language which is much slower than native code, yet people love it.

I expect by "native code" he means the program executable matches the CPU architecture.

Assembly programming was much more popular during the 68k and Amiga history. It climbed from #7 under 5% in 1979 to almost 13% in 1983 but still at #7 before dropping to #8 with about 10% in 1985 when the Amiga launched as C overtook Pascal as the most popular language. Assembly remained above 5% for the rest of Commodore's life. The major drop off is about 2000 which is about the end of the 68k era for embedded use.

Most Popular Programming Languages: Data from 1958 to 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTPrbAKmcdo

Assembly died with RISC and low level computer understanding with it as the era of code bloat began. Many remaining 68k Amiga users know how to code 68k assembly. I expect the percentage of remaining Amiga users that understand 68k assembly code is several times higher than the 5%-10% of assembly code use from 1985-1995. I expect the lack of low level PPC assembly understanding has been an impediment for porting PPC AmigaOS 4, debugging and implementing SMP. The people who love PPC usually do not program or understand the architecture at a low level. The people who love the 68k are the people who program and understand the architecture at a low level.

Last edited by matthey on 11-Aug-2025 at 10:21 PM.

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: what I see here there are some dumb people that want developers to switch to emulator...

No, I want developers to switch away from directly banging hardware and ASM code to developing applications for Amiga OS using C or other higher level languages and let the compiler compile it for 68k+ or 68k+ hybrid with ARM64.

Developers should choose: programing language, IDE, SDK, APIs, libraries, frameworks, operating system

Users should choose: apps, operating environment, platform (hardware).

If a user chooses to run Amiga OS 68k+ apps on genuine 060, FPGA 080, or 68k JIT on ARM64/x64, that should not be the software developers' concern.

Last edited by agami on 12-Aug-2025 at 12:50 AM.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

agami Quote:

No, I want developers to switch away from directly banging hardware and ASM code to developing applications for Amiga OS using C or other higher level languages and let the compiler compile it for 68k+ or 68k+ hybrid with ARM64. Developers should choose: programing language, IDE, SDK, APIs, libraries, frameworks, operating system Users should choose: apps, operating environment, platform (hardware). If a user chooses to run Amiga OS 68k+ apps on genuine 060, FPGA 080, or 68k JIT on ARM64/x64, that should not be the software developers' concern.

So stop supporting the original 68k Amiga hardware and start supporting ARM non-Amiga hardware? I wonder if Christian "Peri" Simpson is recommending developers should change their programs and compile their C64 software so it more easily runs on the C64x? Would that be as unpopular as the C64x blowback that persuaded Peri to switch to the more faithful and compatible C64u hardware?

https://x.com/CommodoreBlog/status/1954126032891511161

"Amiga is in our radar too"

"The Amiga IP has been a bit of a mess for years, so it will be interesting to see how this unfolds. Fingers crossed for new official Amiga computers."

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retired

@OneTimer1

Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote: pistorm is some kind of accelerator card for the Amiga with some option for being more than just that. pistorm or any other Amiga hardware is not mentioned by Perifractic, it's not related to the "Let's Buy Commodore" project in any way So if you want to express your feelings about it, you should switch to a more fitting thread or create one one your own.

From https://x.com/CommodoreBlog/status/1954126032891511161

"Amiga is in our radar too"

"The Amiga IP has been a bit of a mess for years, so it will be interesting to see how this unfolds. Fingers crossed for new official Amiga computers."

Now, eat that.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Aug-2025 at 01:27 PM.

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@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: @Hammer pistorm is worth nothing shit that changes amiga into kb interface for rpi

False. PiStorm-Emu68's turtle mode allows retro Amiga games to run properly, and it's on Commodore-Amiga Inc.'s graphics/audio chipset hardware.

Quote:

it is dumb to waste money on this shit when one may buy kb and mouse for rpi below 10 Euro stop trollin and start working on something worth of use on arm

Your recent PPC offerings don't even contain Commodore-Amiga Inc.'s graphics/audio chipset hardware.

PiStorm-Emu68 differentiates itself from earlier Amithlon ("We don't care about games" - Bernd "Bernie" Meyer, AmigaOS only) and half-baked neo-AmigaOS only (including DraCo) with PiStorm-Emu68's Commodore-Amiga Inc.'s multimedia chipset hardware support.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Aug-2025 at 01:31 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Aug-2025 at 01:29 PM.

_________________

@matthey

Quote:

I expect by "native code" he means the program executable matches the CPU architecture. Assembly programming was much more popular during the 68k and Amiga history. It climbed from #7 under 5% in 1979 to almost 13% in 1983 but still at #7 before dropping to #8 with about 10% in 1985 when the Amiga launched as C overtook Pascal as the most popular language. Assembly remained above 5% for the rest of Commodore's life. The major drop off is about 2000 which is about the end of the 68k era for embedded use. Most Popular Programming Languages: Data from 1958 to 2025 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTPrbAKmcdo Assembly died with RISC and low level computer understanding with it as the era of code bloat began. Many remaining 68k Amiga users know how to code 68k assembly. I expect the percentage of remaining Amiga users that understand 68k assembly code is several times higher than the 5%-10% of assembly code use from 1985-1995. I expect the lack of low level PPC assembly understanding has been an impediment for porting PPC AmigaOS 4, debugging and implementing SMP. The people who love PPC usually do not program or understand the architecture at a low level. The people who love the 68k are the people who program and understand the architecture at a low level.

VMProtect and Denuvo VM create a fictional CPU instruction set as one of many methods against "cracking".

In this technique, multiple virtual machines can be layered one over another, adding encryption to each of the virtual machines. Some of these approaches are used in industrial-level protection of software, such as many triple-A titles use VMProtect and Denuvo (which is an application that provides encryption on top of the virtual machine that it runs on), which is a heavy virtual machine on its own, to run modern games.

References
https://www.irjet.net/archives/V6/i4/IRJET-V6I41314.pdf

https://vmpsoft.com/vmprotect/overview/

Modern desktop CPUs have to brute-force their way to run copy-protected/tamper-resistant modern games.

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@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: @RobertB Quote: RobertB shared: https://slapsoft.com/c64_sales.html Nice numbers. I’d estimate that at this point or with a couple hundred more they will have achieved greater market penetration than the Apollo FPGA solutions. Which kind of makes sense. A renewed C64 is more of a nostalgia buy than and Apollo accelerator or SA solution. And in the very large consumer market that is USA, Commodore 64 did way better than all Amiga models combined. It’ll be interesting to see how The 1200 Maxi will fare.

It was claimed more than 10,000 Vampires when I was in the queue during the early COVID-19 lockdown phase. There was a largely untapped A500 market for 68060+ with an integrated RTG solution.

Phase 5's 68060/PPC + RTG solutions were targeted at minority Amiga models such as A1500/A2000, A3000, A4000, and A1200. It's unlikely that these combined Amiga models' unit sales would reach 500,000 units.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @agami It was claimed more than 10,000 Vampires when I was in the queue during the early COVID-19 lockdown phase.

10,000 units is not the same as 10,000 users in terms of market penetration. I myself purchased 4 separate Apollo units: V2 for A600, V2 for A1200, V4 for A1200, and Apollo Standalone.
Among the 10,000 I'd expect a decent degree of double-ups, and I estimate the market penetration to be around 7,000 users.

The C64 Ultimate is at 7,439 as I type this. I expect fewer double-ups as it is a standalone system rather than an accelerator for an aging system.
While Apollo solutions have sold in the intervening years, as with any tech the bulk of the sales happen early on, dropping off over time. And then there's competition, in upgrades with PiStorm, and in standalone with A600GS, so I doubt Apollo have reached the 11,000 units sold mark.

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All the way, with 68k

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: agami Quote: No, I want developers to switch away from directly banging hardware and ASM code to developing applications for Amiga OS using C or other higher level languages and let the compiler compile it for 68k+ or 68k+ hybrid with ARM64... So stop supporting the original 68k Amiga hardware and start supporting ARM non-Amiga hardware? I wonder if Christian "Peri" Simpson is recommending developers should change their programs and compile their C64 software so it more easily runs on the C64x? Would that be as unpopular as the C64x blowback that persuaded Peri to switch to the more faithful and compatible C64u hardware?

These are not similar-enough scenarios to benefit from comparison.

The C64U is a nostalgia device. The OG C64 era predated the mainstream adoption of WIMP computing conventions, and so in its compatibility computing play can only have a purely retro context. Here. the authentic UX trumps everything else.

For some, the Amiga is only about nostalgia, But the Amiga legacy also has within it the potential for a revival. Much wasted potential as we all know and as we've watched company after company squander their opportunity. Not to mention the seemingly unending legal drama.

For the record, I do not support the original Amiga hardware. I support standardisation as a key underpinning to reincarnating the Amiga spirit. I covet elements of the Amiga UX which I am convinced can be recontextualised into a modern computing paradigm to rival what's on offer from Windows and macOS.

I do not care about brands and trademarks. I care more about how a device can augment human abilities than what it's called. I'm not a hardware purist either. While like yourself I think there is also untapped potential in the 68k ISA, and were I to have gazillions of dollars I would throw money at righting that particular wrong, but it's not a hill on my horizon. I'm fine with x64, ARM64, RISC-V, and really anything that is produced in readily available volumes at marketable prices. Can it be part of the solution? Can the solution cost less than the problem?

I'm all stocked up on member berries. I'm not just looking for an alternative to Windows, macOS, Gnome, KDE. I'm yearning for a piece of tech to reignite in me the fire that burned when I was an A1200 user.

Which is why I frequent this forum. If I abandoned this last refuge, the computing world of marginally upgraded smartphone clones of clones, and of plateauing desktop operating systems looking to A.I. models for relevance, I fear it will swallow me whole and extinguish the pilot light within.

Last edited by agami on 13-Aug-2025 at 11:59 PM.
Last edited by agami on 13-Aug-2025 at 05:08 AM.

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All the way, with 68k

@agami

My argument was about units sold.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Your recent PPC offerings don't even contain Commodore-Amiga Inc.'s graphics/audio chipset hardware.

Yes, we're indeed this lucky

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The Rear Window blog

AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: These are mot similar-enough scenarios to benefit from comparison. The C64U is a nostalgia device. The OG C64 era predated the mainstream adoption of WIMP computing conventions, and so in its compatibility computing play can only have a purely retro context. Here. the authentic UX trumps everything else.

Ack!

Quote:

agami wrote: For some, the Amiga is only about nostalgia, But the Amiga legacy also has within it the potential for a revival. Much wasted potential as we all know and as we've watched company after company squander their opportunity. Not to mention the seemingly unending legal drama. ... I'm all stocked up on member berries. I'm not just looking for an alternative to Windows, macOS, Gnome, KDE. I'm yearning for a piece of tech to reignite in me the fire that burned when I was an A1200 user. Which is why I frequent this forum. If I abandoned this last refuge, the computing world of marginally upgraded smartphone clones of clones, and of plateauing desktop operating systems looking to A.I. models for relevance, I fear it will swallow me whole and extinguish the pilot light within.

I'm skeptical about the future of Amiga(all kind) I hoped the crowd that supported Hyperion would switch after they failed to revive it around 2008.

I was wrong, AROS as the only existing open source alternative is ignored, MorphOS has moved to its own isolated island.

And software developer (games and applications) are rare.

Own hardware for such a tiny market is suicide and FPGA will not allow competitive systems above retro computing.

@Hammer

Quote:

It was claimed more than 10,000 Vampires when I was in the queue ....

And it was claimed 10k units would be enough for an ASIC.

I don't think it will ever come.


@Hammer

Quote:

... largely untapped A500 market for 68060+ with an integrated RTG solution.

And there is a potential Vampire 4SL that could replace all this accelerator/USB/HD/GFX/Ethernet/memory cards with one single system.

This would be an equivalent to the Ultimate C64 but still only a retro system compared to existing AOS4 / MorphOS / AROS systems.

@agami

Quote:

I want developers to switch away from directly banging hardware and ASM code to developing applications for Amiga OS using C or other higher level languages and let the compiler compile it for 68k+ or 68k+ hybrid with ARM64.

Good luck with that. For many, asm (and hardware banging) is the reason why they code software for Amiga at all.

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC