@Magitius

and here we go again with this legal BS even with Commodore

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@matthey

Quote:

...not properly invest in the brands and cut corners knowing they could lose what flimsy IP claims they have successfully stolen at anytime. They also drain finances in fighting them, deliberately in some cases with the intention of putting the IP owners out of business so they can claim the IP for themselves.

This is exactly why the right strategy to release actual products is the one RGL have used; deal with the same main IP holder i.e. Amiga Corp/Cloanto, don't get precious about the brand name and ignore every other IP troll until they bleed out or at least step out of the way! Hopefully a WB 3.1 environment is in the bag for bundling with THEA1200 and Hyperion will just jog on!

I guess Mr Christian 'Peri Sauce' Jedi thinks he can steamroll everyone but in reality the battle is just about to begin! Amiga Corp would probably face more woes by aligning with another company about to enter litigation!

Last edited by BigD on 30-Aug-2025 at 12:27 AM.

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@BigD

Quote:

Hopefully a WB 3.1 environment is in the bag for bundling with THEA1200 and Hyperion will just jog on!

Me thinking that Cloanto had the exclusive rights for emulated platforms... I guess RGL must then have a contract with Amiga Corp. to build a non emulated Amiga, we can only hope to appease the Hyperion god.

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@pixie

Noone is building a non-emulated Amiga anytime soon.

Unless you talk about hobbiest projects around using NOS ECS/AGA and 680x0 chips.

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@Kronos @pixie

The contract between "Hyperion" and "Amiga Something" was made to ensure the exclusivity of an 'Amiga PC' with 'AmigaOS' for Hyperion and its partners.

Therefor it is difficult to sell a computer with the real name, even if you have bought "Amiga Something" without the consent of Hyperion.

---


A non-emulated Amiga, is currently more expensive and has less options than an emulated machine.

The Vampire4-SL might be the best and Mister might be the cheapest available, but none is available as full Amiga clone often lacking features like Ethernet, WiFi, USB, compatibility to legacy devices.

@OneTimer1

If this would ever go to court I'm pretty sure Hyperion would argue that even something running on ARM isn't "emulated".
The other side would argue that FPGA still falls under emulation.

Both arguments could stick with the judge and it just show how both the original 2001 contract and the latter "settlement" fail to settle anything at all.

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@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: Magitius Quote: Those PC computers are made by an Italian company that is registered as Commodore Industries S.r.l., and has nothing to do with the actual Commodore. From what I've gathered, they haven't licenced the trademark, but used some legal loopholes. One of the best websites about the Commodore IP squatters and con men is the following. The Great Commodore Brand Heist https://www.nostalgianerd.com/commodore-heist/ One of the best websites about the Amiga IP squatters and con men is the following. Amiga Documents https://sites.google.com/site/amigadocuments/ Until Christian "Peri" Simpson makes a Commodore & Amiga Dumbest Criminals video to further expose them, investigate, interview, send to regulators, use at trials, put on TV, etc., this is the best we have. They would go away faster if informed Commodore & Amiga fans would stop supporting them by buying their products. They make it difficult to bring out "official" products when constantly under assault and these IP squatters and con men will not properly invest in the brands and cut corners knowing they could lose what flimsy IP claims they have successfully stolen at anytime. They also drain finances in fighting them, deliberately in some cases with the intention of putting the IP owners out of business so they can claim the IP for themselves.

Yeah, I think those links should be pinned to the front page of AmigaWorld, so that there would be no confusion about who is who and does what. Interesting read.

@Magitius

Why would this need to be pinned to the front page? This is an Amiga forum and NOT a Commodore one! Amiga has been free of Commodore for longer than it was tied to it!

I never owned an Amiga while Commodore was alive! What I read about them is that they fell apart after Jack left because their profitability and day to day functioning was tied to his personality including Jack Attacks and a Steve Jobs type whirlwind of fear! Without him the marketing team failed, the engineers did what they wanted and the management generally cancelled all the important stuff! I personally have no love for the brand or the C= logo despite having it on a mouse mat! I reject all variants of C= merchandise and especially the 6% C= tax equivalent of the Nintendo Seal of Approval! I'll be the judge of whether it's worthy of the Amiga legacy not Perifractic!

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@Thread

Some days I think we'd have been better off with an Atari Lorraine but I don't mean it!

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BigD Quote:

This is exactly why the right strategy to release actual products is the one RGL have used; deal with the same main IP holder i.e. Amiga Corp/Cloanto, don't get precious about the brand name and ignore every other IP troll until they bleed out or at least step out of the way! Hopefully a WB 3.1 environment is in the bag for bundling with THEA1200 and Hyperion will just jog on!

I understand why RGL maintains their distance from retro brands and is careful in their minimal dealings with retro IP owners. However, they are susceptible to competition in larger retro markets like the Amiga. I believe THEA500 Mini was outsold by RPi hardware and other competitors likely losing well over half the Amiga market. They acknowledged they did not get the price down enough too which was partially COVID related. With better brand tie in, better hardware and a lower price, they could have likely sold two to four times as many devices. Maybe THEA1200 will have better value but the hardware will not be fully cost reduced like for a sustainable market. Their hopping from retro market to retro market may legally be safer but not being competitive enough is a danger too.

BigD Quote:

I guess Mr Christian 'Peri Sauce' Jedi thinks he can steamroll everyone but in reality the battle is just about to begin! Amiga Corp would probably face more woes by aligning with another company about to enter litigation!

I doubt Peri is as intimidating as Ben where his victims likely feel legally and physically threatened. Peri is more diplomatic, charismatic, persuasive and audacious. He builds a cult like network of friends that may apply pressure and some of his tactics include propaganda and borderline brain washing. Peri may delve into the realms of fantasy himself and hopefully his advisors around him can keep him grounded as he has showed signs of listening and positively adapting, like pivoting away from pushing the C64x to the C64u. Many of his goals are ethical and admirable. Peri is strange but I do not see him as a bad guy. He has not turned to the dark side like Ben.

pixie Quote:

Me thinking that Cloanto had the exclusive rights for emulated platforms... I guess RGL must then have a contract with Amiga Corp. to build a non emulated Amiga, we can only hope to appease the Hyperion god.

As I posted in another thread, I do not believe Cloanto has/had exclusive rights for Amiga emulation. Exhibit 1 of the 2009 Amiga Inc v Hyperion VOF settlement agreement lists "Existing License Agreements" most of which appear to be for emulation and some are for an "indefinite term". These licenses are grandfathered into the settlement agreement and take precedence over the settlement agreement itself. From the settlement agreement, Hyperion has no license for any Amiga IP before the "Software" defined as "AmigaOS 3.1, which is the Operating System (Including without limitation its Software Architecture as described in the Documentation) originally developed owned and marketed by Commodore Business Machines (CBM) for their Amiga line of computers in 1994." Ben makes the absurd claim that all AmigaOS versions have the same Software Architecture as described in the Documentation so the Settlement Agreement grants a license for all AmigaOS versions. A stronger argument is that Hyperion did not license any version of the AmigaOS because CBM did not develop, own or market the AmigaOS.

Magitius Quote:

Yeah, I think those links should be pinned to the front page of AmigaWorld, so that there would be no confusion about who is who and does what. Interesting read.

Not likely though.

A-EON Technology and AmigaKit Buys Amigaworld.net
https://oldschoolgameblog.com/2014/10/26/a-eon-technology-and-amigakit-buys-amigaworld-net/ Quote:

Am I the only one skeptical about this move from two of the “movers and shakers� in the Amiga community? I don’t think so.. To own one discussion forum I can understand, but why do they need two of them? Are they seeking to control the Online Amiga community? Will they buy up what is left of independent forums to use for marketing? What is their agenda? Will they silence their competitors (MorphOS, AROS) in favor of AmigaOS 4.X? Time will show.

Atari has been buying up websites for better control of the community and marketing as well. They then offer overpriced inferior non faithful products. At least the new Atari likely owns and buys Atari IP instead of stealing it but the problem is the same which is investing in branding and marketing instead of competitive and faithful retro hardware. The new Commodore in their very short time is already a better retro IP owner than the legitimate new Atari and illegitimate old Hyperion A-EonKit Amiga IP thieves. The scumbag thieves dig their claws in deeper once they get a grip. The Italian Commodore IP thieves likely released new Commodore products in response to the success of the new Commodore like Hyperion A-EonKit attacked Amiga Corporation, Cloanto and all the Amiga Parties in order to try to trigger the 2009 settlement agreement insolvency clause as a response to the success of RGL Amiga products. Hyperion's absurd claims in lawsuits and threats of RGL and their business partners verifies their desperation as the IP thieves lose their grip.

Last edited by matthey on 30-Aug-2025 at 06:39 PM.

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Magitius Why would this need to be pinned to the front page?

To dissolve ignorance? Maybe then people woudn't fall for brand scam tactics by random greedy individuals.

Quote:

This is an Amiga forum and NOT a Commodore one! Amiga has been free of Commodore for longer than it was tied to it!

I've had an Amiga 1200 that had a label on it: Commodore A1200. My computer hobby began with a Commodore 64. It's totally fine if you don't want Commodore to be associated with Amiga. But why shouldn't this forum have any room for Commodore Amiga enthusiasts, who happen to care about the Commodore brand enough to discuss it?

Quote:

I never owned an Amiga while Commodore was alive! What I read about them is that they fell apart after Jack left because their profitability and day to day functioning was tied to his personality including Jack Attacks and a Steve Jobs type whirlwind of fear! Without him the marketing team failed, the engineers did what they wanted and the management generally cancelled all the important stuff! I personally have no love for the brand or the C= logo despite having it on a mouse mat! I reject all variants of C= merchandise and especially the 6% C= tax equivalent of the Nintendo Seal of Approval! I'll be the judge of whether it's worthy of the Amiga legacy not Perifractic!

We all do vote with our wallets.

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: What I read about them is that they fell apart after Jack left because their profitability and day to day functioning was tied to his personality including Jack Attacks and a Steve Jobs type whirlwind of fear! Without him the marketing team failed, the engineers did what they wanted and the management generally cancelled all the important stuff!

And yet this 'fallen apart' Commodore gave us the A1000, A500, A2000, A3000, CDTV, A4000, A1200 and CD32 - all awesome machines that are still coveted today! Each model had its own unique personality, but all shared the same DNA which kept the community together.

What did Jack give us? The PET, VIC-20, C64 and TED series - all flawed designs that were incompatible with each other because Jack was no engineer. Jack screwed the dealer network so bad that nobody in the US wanted to sell the A1000, and he got offside with Motorola and Microsoft which didn't help either. I bet he would have screwed up the Amiga's design too if he hadn't left when he did.

Quote:

I personally have no love for the brand or the C= logo

I had no love for it either - until they produced the Amiga, then I warmed to it. But this wasn't the 'Jack Attack' Commodore, it was a friendlier Commodore which cared about its users. Disassociating the Amiga from Commodore diminishes it.

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: Some days I think we'd have been better off with an Atari Lorraine but I don't mean it!

Yep. And if Steve Jobs thought it was the "right amount" of hardware, we'd all be on different forums today.

As a C64 user, the Amiga was a spiritual upgrade, if not a backward compatible one. Not the A1000, that was a retail dev-kit. The A500 was a pure "Take my money!" machine. Even at the time, I didn't care what brand was behind it. I cared that it was within reach.

In this regard I agree with you. It has been my observation that Amiga fanaticism is different to Apple fanaticism:
- With Apple, it was about the company and it's figurehead, which endured in spite of its slew of poor value-for-money products.
- With Amiga, it was about the awesome value-for-money products, which endured in spite of the company and the succession of poor decisions by its figureheads.

Not ideal, because machines don't make companies. This is the false economy behind the Amiga curse. Because we all coveted the machine, different companies would buy the Amiga IP thinking we will automatically transfer our devotion.

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Quote:

Kronos wrote: If this would ever go to court I'm pretty sure Hyperion would argue that even something running on ARM isn't "emulated". The other side would argue that FPGA still falls under emulation.

I don't believe it is related to 'emulating', Cloanto has (had before buying Amiga_Corp.?) the rights for ROMs in silicon or as data.

Hyperion ruled out the existence of an 'Amiga Computer with AmigaOS' without their consent, therefore Hyperion might be able to block any computer / console labeled as 'Amiga distributed with an AmigaOS' and Amiga_Corp may still be able to block Hyperion from doing it without consent.

TheA500 or A600GS don't have the name, Apollo team never paid Cloanto or Hyperion for AmigaOS and they are avoiding the name, at least C= or AmigaTech made systems are free from such problems.

----

But Perifractic will have enough problems with "Italian Commodore" I don't know if they are selling real products a WWW-page doesn't make it real, maybe this is just another gamble about brand names.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 01-Sep-2025 at 06:25 AM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 01-Sep-2025 at 06:21 AM.

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: Not ideal, because machines don't make companies. This is the false economy behind the Amiga curse. Because we all coveted the machine, different companies would buy the Amiga IP thinking we will automatically transfer our devotion.

My devotion is to the Amiga, and therefore anyone who supports it. Commodore did, others didn't. Commodore wasn't perfect, but they believed in the machine when nobody else did.

Now we have another outfit whose motivation is their love for Commodore computers. They didn't buy the Commodore brand to put it on a running shoe, sell NFTs or name a cryptocurrency, but to get it back where it belongs - on new iterations of the machines Commodore produced. The machine made the company.

@OneTimer1

The point is all the trademarks are so tainted and untraceable at this point that it isn't about having a license.

It's about whether you are a big annoyance for someone else with "a license" to start spending money on a law suit.

If that law suit does happen it's not decided on merit but on whose lawyer can peddle the most BS while maintaining a straight face. Or in recent cases who actually bothers to have a lawyer show up.

Hence, "buying Commodore" is pointless and Petrifuk should have done what the Italians or Barry-NotC-USA did, just claim to be Commodore and wait for someone to try to prove otherwise.

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@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote: The point is all the trademarks are so tainted and untraceable at this point that it isn't about having a license. It's about whether you are a big annoyance for someone else with "a license" to start spending money on a law suit.

True, or I can try to stay away from things that may cause problem.

So "TheA500 + AOS3.1" will work for a company working with Cloanto and "A600GS + AROS" will work for a company without the rights for AOS3.1.

Quote:

Kronos wrote: Hence, "buying Commodore" is pointless and Petrifuk should have done what the Italians or Barry-NotC-USA did, just claim to be Commodore and wait for someone to try to prove otherwise.

Yes, now he has to start a lawsuit proving he owns the rights, negotiate with them or lose them.

I hope he got the C= rights cheap, the owners before him didn't care enough about it, now it is like an unkempt garden.

----

But at least we can look forward to an 'Commodore AMIRA 500'

Maybe I should try and get the rights for ESCOM:
https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Escom?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp

BTW.: Always I have linked the German version translated via Google, it has some details that are missing in the English version that are more concentrated on the UK market of the company.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 01-Sep-2025 at 07:33 AM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 01-Sep-2025 at 07:18 AM.

agami Quote:

Yep. And if Steve Jobs thought it was the "right amount" of hardware, we'd all be on different forums today.

Ron Nicholson, who worked for Apple before becoming the first Amiga Corporation/Hi Torro Engineer, gave some insight into Job's comment about the Amiga having too much hardware. Apple was developing their own chipset and Jobs hoped to integrate the Apple chipset into 2 major custom chips instead of 3 like the Amiga but failed. The Amiga chipset was minimalist and only cutting features would have allowed it to be significantly smaller.

agami Quote:

As a C64 user, the Amiga was a spiritual upgrade, if not a backward compatible one. Not the A1000, that was a retail dev-kit. The A500 was a pure "Take my money!" machine. Even at the time, I didn't care what brand was behind it. I cared that it was within reach.

Yes and no. The Amiga offered very good value like the C64. However, it was not the low end computer for the masses on introduction and it lacked C64 compatibility with Commodore caring more about PC compatibility. The Amiga 500 eventually became a computer for the masses but Commodore failed to upgrade and retain enough C64 customers to the Amiga. Better C64 compatibility was likely also possible.

OneTimer1 Quote:

I don't believe it is related to 'emulating', Cloanto has (had before buying Amiga_Corp.?) the rights for ROMs in silicon or as data.

As I recall, Cloanto licensed the copyrights and trademarks for Amiga and Commodore ROMs/Kickstarts which they obtained early along with a license for the AmigaOS, perhaps limited to emulation but the contract is not public, originally licensed from Gateway/Amiga international (and some IP purchased from Amiga Washington?), before the Ben accused shell game transfer of IP to Amiga Delaware, which became the current Amiga Inc. If the Cloanto contract is limited to emulation, perhaps the ROMs could be used for real silicon but maybe the AmigaOS would be limited to emulation. FPGA use may be considered real hardware as the firmware that defines the logic is more like microcode than software for emulation. FPGAs are programmed with HDLs which stands for Hardware Description Languages. Amiga Corporation may be able to provide more Amiga IP from Amiga Inc but the license carve out for Hyperion in 2009 settlement agreement is problematic, especially the claimed exclusive rights to the AmigaOS. Does the combined Amiga IP of Amiga Corporation and Cloanto gain the rights to distribute and market the AmigaOS through Cloanto as grandfathered in or do the Hyperion exclusive rights apply if combined? The settlement agreement is worded such that the exclusive rights apply to the "Amiga Parties" which neither Cloanto or Amiga Corporation are as the Amiga IP from Amiga Inc was purchased instead of a de facto merger. My interpretation is that the so called Hyperion exclusive rights to the AmigaOS were never exclusive and the combined Cloanto and Amiga Corporation gain the rights limited to the "Amiga Parties". There are still restrictions and requirements in the settlement agreement that apply to successors but it is less onerous with this interpretation.

OneTimer1 Quote:

Hyperion ruled out the existence of an 'Amiga Computer with AmigaOS' without their consent, therefore Hyperion might be able to block any computer / console labeled as 'Amiga distributed with an AmigaOS' and Amiga_Corp may still be able to block Hyperion from doing it without consent.

The 2009 settlement agreement limitation on AmigaOS, including Amiga like OSs with a similar architecture, was for the "Amiga Parties" defined as three businesses which do not include Amiga Corporation or Cloanto. With my interpretation, Amiga Corporation could produce an Amiga computer with a similar architecture to AmigaOS but with some restrictions on the use of the AmigaOS while without it, the 2009 settlement agreement would not allow an Amiga with any AmigaOS like OS including AROS for example. However, they could likely still produce Amiga hardware even including ROMs and a 3rd party may be able to add an AmigaOS like OS.

One of Ben's big lies in the new lawsuit is that Hyperion can use the trademark "Amiga" as it is implied by "AmigaOS" and "AmigaOne". With this radical absurd interpretation, Hyperion and their sub-licensees could produce "Amiga" hardware with the "AmigaOS". Another absurd big lie from Ben is that all the AmigaOS versions exhibit a similar architecture so any version can be used removing the limitation on AmigaOS 3.1 as specified in the settlement agreement. Through such radical interpretations, Hyperion could have sub-licensed Amiga IP to their ally AmigaKit to produce an Amiga A600GS and Amiga A1200NG with AmigaOS. However, it appears Matthew at AmigaKIt was not confident enough to use Amiga branding or the 68k AmigaOS from Hyperion. Maybe AmigaKit wants to limit their Amiga IP exposure to "AmigaKit", "AmigaStore", "AmigaShop", "A1200" and "Amiga Technologies" hoping they could survive payouts due to these trademark violations.

Kronos Quote:

The point is all the trademarks are so tainted and untraceable at this point that it isn't about having a license.

I disagree. Despite propaganda and false claims from Ben, other con men, pirates and anarchists, the Commodore-Amiga lineage and IP can be traced back to their sources and businesses likely have the paperwork to show it and perhaps prove it in court. Bringing back the Commodore-Amiga, especially producing competitive hardware, requires investment which con men and their flimsy IP claims are unwilling to make. Owning Commodore-Amiga IP requires protecting it including adequately dealing with IP squatters and con men like the Hyperion A-EonKit syndicate and the Italian Commodores. The Hyperion A-EonKit syndicate is far more dangerous as they are organized and well funded by their crime lord (If Ben is the open Sith who is his secret Sith master?). The Italians have stepped up their con game too and it may not be possible to stop them fully due to Italian loopholes in IP laws, but it should be possible to limit the distribution of their products outside of Italy.

Kronos Quote:

It's about whether you are a big annoyance for someone else with "a license" to start spending money on a law suit. If that law suit does happen it's not decided on merit but on whose lawyer can peddle the most BS while maintaining a straight face. Or in recent cases who actually bothers to have a lawyer show up. Hence, "buying Commodore" is pointless and Petrifuk should have done what the Italians or Barry-NotC-USA did, just claim to be Commodore and wait for someone to try to prove otherwise.

Again, I disagree. While IP squatters and con men have to become a big enough annoyance to sue and lawfare is not always fair with success based on financing, buying Commodore-Amiga IP is not pointless if wanting to become legit and grow. Unfortunately, some businesses want to acquire retro IP solely for marketing purposes to make a quick buck selling inferior retro branded products, for example the new Atari so far despite being well funded. It looked like the new Commodore wanted to do similar with the C64x and promoting the important of the Commodore brand and heritage while not maintaining it. Credit to them for pivoting and adapting. Peri involved former Commodore-Amiga people and appears to have received good advice. It is early in their existence and I would rather give them the benefit of the doubt rather than attack them as they seem to be getting better not worse. They also have strong support and momentum for such a short time which could affect the Amiga in a positive way if they continue to get better.

Brand loyalty is kind of like nationalism. Brand loyalty and nationalism should be discarded when those in power are undeserving, immoral and illegitimate. People want their favorite brands and nations to be successful and this often clouds their judgement with them supporting them when they should not. However, brand loyalty and nationalism can be positives when brands and nations are sources of good and aligned with the people/masses and their values. Blind loyalty and legitimacy through heritage alone are too often abused though.

Last edited by matthey on 01-Sep-2025 at 07:53 PM.

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: Yes and no. The Amiga offered very good value like the C64. However, it was not the low end computer for the masses on introduction and it lacked C64 compatibility with Commodore caring more about PC compatibility.

The nascent personal computer market was changing rapidly. With the C64, Commodore had a response to the popular Apple II, and with the Amiga 1000 they had a response to Apple's new Macintosh. Seems more like 'do as the the leading brand does but cheaper' was the tactic, rather than a staunch adherence to the 'computer for the masses' mission.

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