@beef

Quote:

if i can run windows nt, beos, linux, and unix on a G4 amiga needs to also

Yes, i agree... everyone in the world cannot wait to run a copy of WinNT on a G4
Did you missed the fact that even MS has ceased support for NT? (and support for NT/PPC ceased ages ago, IIRC).

_________________
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@EntilZha

Quote:

EntilZha wrote: @icreate Quote: but there are several VARs shipping G5s with PPC Linux. Linux is not commercial.

Mandake, Suse, RedHat, YelllowDog, Xandros, Slackware, they're all commercial linux distributions.

Quote:

Quote: Apple is in the business of selling hardware afterall and not operating systems MacOS X is no OS, then ?

I think what he meant is clear, he even explained it more in detail with the next sentence you didn't quote.

Quote:

You're comparing apples with oranges (pun slightly intended ) Just bundling Linux with a Mac probably does not require any cooperation from Apple. Getting hardware documentation will. And I'm sure as hell not going to wade through tons of Linux source code to find out how the Apple hardware works.

Linux devs didn't get any cooperation from Apple, so didn't BSD devs. Yet, those OSs run on the Mac.

Of course it's your own choice, but I hope you realize that by not making AmigaOS run on a Mac you're losing millions of potential users.

Last edited by falemagn on 02-Jan-2005 at 01:41 PM.
Last edited by falemagn on 02-Jan-2005 at 01:36 PM.

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@falemagn

Quote:

Mandake, Suse, RedHat, YelllowDog, Xandros, Slackware, they're all commercial linux distributions.

True, but that is only distributions of otherwise free software. You can hardly do anything against that, and apart from that, it makes your company look really bad (see slashdot).

Quote:

I think what he meant is clear, he even explained it more in detail with the next sentence you didn't quote.

Matter of fact is that if Apple was not into selling their OS, they could put out updates for free which they don't do. At the moment, MacOS X 10.3 costs $129, and, as usual, ?149 in Germany. If that isn't like "selling the OS", then honestly I don't know.

Quote:

Of course it's your own choice, but I hope you realize that by not making AmigaOS run on a Mac you're losing milions of potential users.

How often does one need to repeat that it is not our choice? That AmigaOS requires a license, and that our license only covers the platforms that have been announced before?

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@Georg

Quote:

Sooner or later (AmigaOS 4.1) that will have to change, anyway. Or how are future versions supposed to be sold?

I think you asked that same question before, and I think I have given the answer already: I don't know. I tend to look out at the final release of 4.0 before I actually think about 4.1, and plainly, marketing stuff doesn't interest me one bit. It might be that 4.1 will only be sold with new hardware *or* as an update to OS 4.0, hence not separately. I plainly don't know.

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@falemagn

Quote:

Linux devs didn't get any cooperation from Apple, so didn't BSD devs. Yet, those OSs run on the Mac.

I didn't say it's not possible, it's just more work.

Quote:

Of course it's your own choice, but I hope you realize that by not making AmigaOS run on a Mac you're losing millions of potential users.

Say, how often do I have to repeat it until you get it: We are not free to port OS4 to other platforms. If Hyperion decided to do a port, Hyperion have to get a license as well, from Amiga, Inc. It's NOT our choice... It's not our chioive to port it to Pegasos, and it's not our choice to port it to Mac or whatever.

_________________
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"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil

All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment

@Rogue

Quote:

Rogue wrote: @falemagn Quote: Mandake, Suse, RedHat, YelllowDog, Xandros, Slackware, they're all commercial linux distributions. True, but that is only distributions of otherwise free software. You can hardly do anything against that, and apart from that, it makes your company look really bad (see slashdot).

Whether the software they repackage (but they don't limit themselves to "repackaging" anyway) is free or not doesn't make and shouldn't make any difference for Apple, Inc: in the end, what runs on their hardware is a commercially distributed set of software, hence someone is making money out of it.

Quote:

Quote: I think what he meant is clear, he even explained it more in detail with the next sentence you didn't quote. Matter of fact is that if Apple was not into selling their OS, they could put out updates for free which they don't do. At the moment, MacOS X 10.3 costs $129, and, as usual, ?149 in Germany. If that isn't like "selling the OS", then honestly I don't know.

Of course they'd be silly to lose a further chance to make money: people are willing to pay for those updates, hence they make them pay for it. Not to mention that developers must be paid somehow. Nonetheless, if they started selling MacOS X for x86, they'd see their market share increase by an unimaginable amount, yet they don't do it, 'cause they want to sell their hardware AND keep a sort of "elitist" image.

Quote:

Quote: Of course it's your own choice, but I hope you realize that by not making AmigaOS run on a Mac you're losing milions of potential users. How often does one need to repeat that it is not our choice? That AmigaOS requires a license, and that our license only covers the platforms that have been announced before?

Well, your bro just said that he's not going to rave into linux sources to understand how to make the thing work, and that is not even an issue if what you say is right, that is the whole thing could be put to rest just by saying what you said in the above sentence, something like "forget it, we're not allowed to".

Last edited by falemagn on 02-Jan-2005 at 01:58 PM.

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@falemagn
Quote:

andake, Suse, RedHat, YelllowDog, Xandros, Slackware, they're all commercial linux distributions.

For the most part, these publishers don't make much, if anything, on the package you buy at the retailer.

Their revenue comes from asking the user for his credit card number when he calls for help. At a $50 minimum to answer the question, you can make a lot of money quickly. If you have to stay on the line for more than the minimum billing period, it's even more money. A sixteen minute call may cost $100.

@HMK
Quote:

It's a bit like the old question of porting AmigaOS to x86 hardware. It would be technically a nice thing, but it would kill AmigaOS pretty much immediately in a BeOS'ish fashion. There's this little OS called MacOSX which pretty much dominates PPC right now, just like Windows does on x86. OS4 would become a curiosity rather than something serious.

How True. People installed BEOS, played with it for a few minutes, remarked "How Quaint", and rebooted into windows.

That doesn't sell software. So, the software market dries up, and there is even less reason to boot into BEOS or AmigaOS/x86. So the downward spiral continues.

I think a lot of the arguments for the X86 version of AmigaOS4 was presented as a technical argument, but underneath it was a case of "I don't want to pay the price of admission to run AmigaOS4."

If they don't want to invest in the Amiga hardware, would they invest in the Amiga OS and the software?

@terminator

Quote:

For the most part, these publishers don't make much, if anything, on the package you buy at the retailer.

That's not really the case, with some distributions costing up to and even more than 100 EUR.

Even so, though, it's not realistic to think that Apple makes distinction between companies that make "lots" of money and companies that make "just a bit" of money by selling their products.

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@terminator

Quote:

How True. People installed BEOS, played with it for a few minutes, remarked "How Quaint", and rebooted into windows.

People do that with AmigaOS all the time, except they don't even bother trying it, because they simply can't.

BeOS has today by FAR more users than AmigaOS has and has had in the latest decade. The fact you can run other operating systems on the same machine is an incentive in trying them, but if people are required to buy a whole new, underpowered (for todays standards) and costly proprietary platform without even knowing whether they'll find any use for it, can you please tell me how's AmigaOS supposed to make a dent in the real market?

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@falemagn
Quote:

falemagn wrote: @terminator Quote: For the most part, these publishers don't make much, if anything, on the package you buy at the retailer. That's not really the case, with some distributions costing up to and even more than 100 EUR.

For reference, a copy of MS' windows retails here for 183 Euros. The full package. I've seen refurbished IBM boxes with windows installed for less than that.

The difference being that if you don't want to pay for a packaged version of Linux, you can download it for free. Don't like this version, download another one, for free.

You are not paying for Linux, you are paying for the packaging. The box, the discs, any printed or electronic documents they have created. Plus distribution. And the retailer isn't giving it away at cost either.

Contrast that with MS. They be making large coin on the retail version of windows. Mac OSX retails here for 110 Euros. But Apple's emphasis is selling sexy hardware.

@terminator

What you're paying for is totally irrelevant, they're still commercial companies that sell a product. Whether you can download some parts of those products for free makes really no difference.

Last edited by falemagn on 02-Jan-2005 at 03:06 PM.

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@falemagn

The people who think that the A1 are too expensive but think that it's fun to toy around with it use WinUAE. The same people buy stuff for their PC evey now and then and within 6 months they've allready paid the price for what an A1 costs by buying gfxcards, routers, networkcards etc, etc... So I clame that "I can't afford an A1" is BS. If you buy a new PC every 1 or 2 years and between that you buy new stuff for the current PC you *can* afford an A1. I could buy one even though I was a student. I saved a little money every month for 6 months. Most people have better economy than that.

There are plans for AOS 4-5. The plan for 4.0 is to bring old Amiga-users back and keep the current user-base. The final AOS 4.0 isn't even released yet.

Saying that Mac-hardware would be the answer to all problems is just silly. I really don't belive in Mac-users buying AOS 4 or using it just because it's available. The current user-group might buy a Mac instead of an A1 but how does that help Hyperion selling more copies?

I've showed AOS 4 by downloading that movie that a beta-tester did and those who have seen it have been very impressed. Remember Amithlon? It was made to let former Amiga-users see what AOS looked like "today". I showed it to some friends and they weren't impressed, they didn't buy an Amiga and they didn't even bother to install it.

There are other ways to show people AOS than porting it to new hardware.

@hotrod

Quote:

Remember Amithlon? It was made to let former Amiga-users see what AOS looked like "today".

No, Amithlon's purpose was to let existing Amiga users take advantage of cheap, fast, easily available hardware. Few ex-Amigans were brought back by Amithlon, but that was never the aim. It was intended to let existing AmigaOS users jump free of their old, slow and often very unreliable hardware.

People used to regularly show up on the Amithlon mailing lists saying "My old Amiga died, so I bought Amithlon...", so it seems to have worked as intended.

_________________
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@DrBombcrater

That's what happened but that's not how it was intended to work out like according to Amiga Inc. AFAICR.

My friend wants to get a Mac, i was thinking of introdusing A OS to him. Oh Well.
By the time ive got the right money, i can buy an A1 Laptop.

サム

Sam.

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@hotrod

Anything Amiga Inc said about Amithlon was, like all their statements, best ignored. I always got the very strongest impression that Bernie intended Amithlon mainly as a lifeboat from the Classic Amiga hardware. Of course, it's all a moot point now that Amithlon is deceased.

I have to agree with your original point about Mac hardware not being an answer to all problems. It clearly isn't and can't be, no matter how much some people wish it was. Producing a version of OS4 that runs on a range of Macs is a non-starter, but I think Apple's sub-$500 'MiniMac', if it really exists, could be an interesting opportunity.

The trick is to stop thinking about it as an Apple Mac, but as a cheap source of PPC motherboards.

Any company looking to market a competitor to the AmigaOne would still have to obtain a licence from KMOS and pay Hyperion to modify U-Boot and OS4's HAL, but rather than having a new PPC motherboard designed and manufactured (at no small up-front cost) they simply order a batch of $500 Macs from Apple, change the Apple casing for a suitably Amiga-ish one, flash in U-Boot, and ship the thing.

You'd end up with a system that's cheaper than an AmigaOne-based machine, has better specifications, and won't have all those 'interesting' bugs. The availability problems that bedevil the A1 would be cured too, because there's no need to scrape up the cash to finance an expensive production run and then wait for the boards to arrive on the slow boat from Taiwan.

The only potential show-stopper I can see with this plan is the necessity of reverse-engineering the low-level details of the Mac motherboard. But with only one specific board, it would be a lot easier than doing a general 'all Macs' port of OS4.

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@DrBombcrater

The question is, would it be worth it? Months of work for nothing it would seem since those who would buy it are the current Amiga userbase.

If they are going to make it work for one board there would still be months of work if they're going to reverse-engineer it so when the job is done it might not be available any longer and out of date.

The way that I see it there there are too much work for nothing, or close to nothing.

But yes it's a nice idea and I hear what you're saying, I just don't think that it would be worth it. However *if* Apple would sign the license and sell their hardware under an other name it would be a different matter. However, looking at their special designs where everything counts, like their cooling-systems, specific towers and so on you wouldn't easily be able to build your own system around a motherboard. I'm thinking about the G5 now though, a G4 would be another matter.

Also the A1 XC will be the next "big" Amiga and it will be more up to date. Lets hope that the price is about the same as for the XE at least, it might feel better for some people to pay for the XC.

@thread

This idea poses a few problems. While I personally would love to see AOS4 available to run on Mac hardware (I now have a dual G4 PowerMac, 1GHz, nvidia 64MB video, firewire, USB2, purchased (used) for less than the cost of the uA1c)....there are a few problems with this:
(Note this is conjecture, but AFAIK _logical_ conjecture on my part)

1. Amiga Inc licenses the right to produce/sell AOS4 (or is it 4.X? I'd love to know the answer to that one!) to Hyperion. I'm sure part of that agreemenet states they are only allowed to port AOS to licensed 'AmigaOne' platforms, ie the A1s from EyeTech.

2. Amiga Inc/KMOS licensed the right to produce (or have produced) motherboards to be called AmigaOnes solely to EyeTech at this time.

I expect there's also some comissions going on as well, like 10% per sale of an A1 board or AOS going to KMOS/Amiga.

So, that leaves us with Hyperion wanting to make money on the OS, and EyeTech wanting to make money on the hardware. These two are at odds with the idea of growing the AOS market, and possibly counter-productive. If Hyperion were to purchase the licensing to run AOS on Mac or some other hardware platform.....it would very likely increase their sales of AOS. PowerMac would be an ideal platform for doing this, as hardware is consistent, much like the A1 line, and is PPC based as well. A used powermac, say G4 800, or a powerbook G4-500 (heh, Amiga laptop) could be had for a good savings over the A1/uA1 boards, and would very likely kill the chance for EyeTech to sell many boards to the 'Amiga Community' at the current prices. As EyeTech from all accounts and info I can see is significantly worse at marketing and successfully selling the A1 line anywhere outside of the Amiga Community, unlike *ick* Genesi....EyeTech would very likely stop producing A1 hardware, period.

What would that do? Remove any future 'reference platform' for Hyperion to develop AOS4 against, although it would very likely at least initially bring in some more AOS users on older Mac hardware....but then what? Most people, myself included are very unlikely to go and buy a new (pricy) G5 PowerMac to run AOS4 on. Sure, a few would, but I'd wager less than the number of A1/uA1 buyers, and then the A1/AOS hardware becomes even more outdated than it is already. Might not be a good long-term solution, not to mention no more A1 'family' hardware produced....unless a deal with Apple could be made, which seems unlikely given the amazingly tiny numbers in this (current) market.

Of course, if a larger company were to step in to allow the creating of uA1/A1 hardware in larger than runs of perhaps 200 boards at a time, or EyeTech perhaps took some lessons in marketing and was able to sell some commercial accounts (maybe with the uA1-I?), then perhaps a port to Mac hardware could be done...but only once the A1 hardware was reasonably (meaning at least as competitive as Apple hardware, which is of course more than their x86 counterparts) competitive....then Hyperion could make more money from AOS sales, Amigans 'on the edge' decision-wise could buy AOS4 and run it on older Mac hardware before later trading up to an A1 or newer Mac, and EyeTech could still sell something like the XC (assuming it's reasonably priced and specced by the time it's available) without huge problems.

I expect, barring any undisclosed licensing agreements (which there certainly could be), Hyperion wouldn't want to fragment the AOS4 hardware market, until AOS4 perhaps starts to enjoy higher volume of sales. After that, I would expect the possibility to be entertained.

Of course, if EyeTech really IS so incompetent that their currently down web site is a sign of things to come, and they disappear entirely, the A1 hardware with them, I'd expect a port of AOS4 to Pegasos and the Mac hardware to come in fairly short order, as the only possibility of AOS surviving. I hope it doesn't come to that, a 'forced' port....but I personally see little reason to put much faith in EyeTech at this point, although I am glad they've produced a few boards.

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