Yes, the big question we a have a common team developing drivers for MorphOS, AmigaOS4.x, AROS and Amiga 68k, to can connect new hardware as mobile phones gaming keyboards and others usb goodies.

@Templario

Wishful thinking. Those few who can, for each OS, will have differing philosophies or idealogies from one OS to the next. That's why we have 3 OSes, because they don't agree on things. Picasso96 vs CyberGfx... I'm not sure what AROS uses. OS4 seems to maybe moving past P96 to something else. And that's just for Graphics system.

_________________
All glory to the Hypnotoad!

Nothing seems to be impossible if someone pays the bill ;) Like MorphOS developers were hired to code some OS4 drivers recently...

Last edited by jPV on 16-Oct-2018 at 07:49 PM.

_________________
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Maybe a special bounty to pay the time of develop, because the other problem for Amiga users besides of havent software and new hardware a good prices is drivers to connect everything to current machines running these OS. It is a few desperate spend money in some devices a don't run with our favorites systems as somes gaming keyboards for example.

@billt
Quote:

I'm not sure what AROS uses.

Last time I checked, AROS was using Gallium3D for its 3D drivers (for the PC port at least, not sure what it uses on the Amiga 68k port).

https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/gallium/

It's a graphics driver framework that makes it easier to port drivers between different operating systems. Aside from AROS, it works on Linux and BSD, and there are plans for Haiku to support it.

I don't know if OS4 or MorphOS support Gallium3D yet, but it probably would make porting existing graphics drivers easier if they did.

Quote:

HenryCase wrote: I don't know if OS4 or MorphOS support Gallium3D yet, but it probably would make porting existing graphics drivers easier if they did.

Trevor talked about Gallium at AmiWest 2018.

"I don't speak for Hyperion. What is OS 4.2? It's a number. I think the problem was Ben Hermans kind of created this dilemma where in 2010 he said 4.2 will be all this that and the other. And really you, that was 8 years ago. So 8 years on there is no OS 4.2. It hasn't happened for a number of reasons. But its changed, the whole dynamic changed since then. OS 4.2 was going to be Gallium. Well Gallium has been discontinued for the moment and Warp3D Nova and all that work is replacing it really. SMP was supposed to be supported in 4.2 but I think that is where the next part of development will go for exec SG and I can talk about that because I'm involved with exec SG. That's where we will focus and I think we will try to put together a team to make that happen more quickly. As for the rest of OS 4.2 I can't really comment as I'm not a Hyperion spokesman and I don't know what their plans are."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAAJXrcFTmU&feature=youtu.be

SMP is on the way too. "Obstacles to an efficient implementation were removed" already in 2011.

https://amigaworld.net//modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=34171&forum=33&start=40#627520

edit: can't changed to can in Trevor's speech transcript

Last edited by matthey on 17-Oct-2018 at 09:10 AM.

@HenryCase

Quote:

Last time I checked, AROS was using Gallium3D for its 3D drivers (for the PC port at least, not sure what it uses on the Amiga 68k port).

gallium as low level 3d infrastructure, ok,you can run softpipe on m68k.
other than that it uses cgx compatible system with p96 wrapper for m68k third party vendor drivers.

Last edited by wawa on 17-Oct-2018 at 12:59 AM.

@matthey

Quote:

Trevor talked about Gallium at AmiWest 2018.

id interpret that, as in short: nothing much worth mention has been achieved so far.
thats a regular conclusion, after those amiwest talks, im afraid.

@wawa

It also seems to indicate that Trevor's relationship with Hyperion is not unexpectedly, a little frosty.

I was sitting about 6 feet away from Trevor and could barely hear him due to the noise in the hall. However, I thought I did hear him say "exec SG". He does say he "can talk about that" rather than can't.

I meant to ask about this at dinner. Anyone know what is going on?

edit: with more info from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exec_(Amiga)#ExecSG

"ExecSG (Second Generation) is the kernel used by AmigaOS 4. This kernel was licensed by Hyperion Entertainment from Thomas Frieden and Hans-Jörg Frieden.[5] It exposes the same functions and structures as the Commodore Amiga Exec kernel but runs on PowerPC CPUs only. The ultimate origin of ExecSG is unspecified. "

Last edited by remotenemesis on 17-Oct-2018 at 07:37 AM.

Here I talk about drivers for USB device as mobile phones, joypads, gaming keyboards, external usb CD/DVD drives, external HD, photo cameras, etc.

@Templario

Quote:

Here I talk about drivers for USB device as mobile phones, joypads, gaming keyboards, external usb CD/DVD drives, external HD, photo cameras, etc.

if so, poseidon stack is the facto standard on amiga and most amiga like platfoms. actually the only exception is os4. as long as the drivers are being developed for aros, chances are they are open source and portable, that might not be the case with drivers developed form morphos. but if someone wants to write some usb class, the common denominator is given.

Last edited by wawa on 17-Oct-2018 at 12:50 PM.

@wawa
The problem is there are hundreds of usb device even Windows sometimes neither recognized them, but usb piseison neither, make drivers can difficult because I think (I don't know) they are programmed with c, not a simple info as some drivers under Windows.

Quote:

wawa wrote: id interpret that, as in short: nothing much worth mention has been achieved so far. thats a regular conclusion, after those amiwest talks, im afraid.

What? No. Two more weeks.

Quote:

It also seems to indicate that Trevor's relationship with Hyperion is not unexpectedly, a little frosty.

Hyperion said, "Our relationship(s) with most of our business partners are excellent."

https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=42871&forum=16&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#817370

Surely A-Eon is the business Hyperion has an "excellent" relationship with but maybe they are referring to the "excellent" relationship where Olsen and ThoR do most of the work and Hyperion gets all the profit. Maybe an "excellent" relationship means you aren't getting sued by Hyperion.

Quote:

remotenemesis wrote: I was sitting about 6 feet away from Trevor and could barely hear him due to the noise in the hall. However, I thought I did hear him say "exec SG". He does say he "can talk about that" rather than can't.

I changed that in my transcript after listening to Trevor's speech again. I believe you are correct.

Quote:

I meant to ask about this at dinner. Anyone know what is going on?

Asking Trevor about ExecSG would have been more interesting where he can talk about it.

Thomas Frieden was contracted by Hyperion to write ExecSG January 3, 2002. It is nothing new. The whole contract idea to write AmigaOS has turned into a disaster. AmigaOS needs to be brought under one roof or abandoned for AROS. AROS could be skinned to look like AmigaOS 4. It would make sense to break compatibility with AROS POWER while adding 64 bit support, SMP and security. Security really needs to go with SMP or security and instability risk scales with the increased performance. The upscale POWER market needs an OS with security and stability to be competitive or the Amiga becomes just a hobby project for a handful of upper class Amiga elitists. For 64 bit, the 68k structures using APTR are not adequate and the alignment is a performance kludge. Even on 32 bit PPC, the 16 bit alignment of some APTRs is less efficient than on 68k CPUs which have extra hardware to reduce the cost of unaligned memory accesses. The default alignment in PPC structures is usually natural alignment with the start of the structure aligned to the largest scalar in the structure. It looks like AmigaOS 4 must override the default ABI in the compiler to use this less efficient alignment (-amiga-align in vbcc). Accessing 16 bit aligned pointers on a 64 bit CPU usually becomes more inefficient than on a 32 bit CPU. Then there is the problem of Forbid/Permit and Disable/Permit which are inefficient nightmares for SMP. A custom 68k CPU could reduce the misalignment overhead to a minimum, use custom instructions to turn off the other cores for Forbid/Permit and Disable/Enable and maybe even add an efficient protection ring to allow security with minimal compatibility loss and changes to the AmigaOS. With off the shelf hardware, the AmigaOS has to be adapted to it where custom hardware can be adapted to the AmigaOS. I believe many of the delays in ExecSG are due to trying to adapt to a wide variety of off the shelf hardware while trying to maintain compatibility. I suspect that some people have been less than forthright about what is possible on off the shelf hardware. I wouldn't be surprised if PPC AmigaOS 4 ends up an orphan stuck between 68k compatibility and modern hardware.

@matthey

Quote:

Maybe an "excellent" relationship means you aren't getting sued by Hyperion.

No. In Hyperion's book, an "excellent relationship" means that as a business partner, you

* design, produce and pay for hardware that runs OS4,
* finance the development of drivers for the said hardware,
* sponsor the development of the operating system,
* pay for debts Hyperion have incurred, especially those that might sink the ship,

all that without getting any control over the OS in return. A business plan sent from heaven!

Last edited by Trixie on 17-Oct-2018 at 09:52 PM.
Last edited by Trixie on 17-Oct-2018 at 09:51 PM.

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@matthey

Quote:

The upscale POWER market needs an OS with security and stability to be competitive or the Amiga becomes just a hobby project for a handful of upper class Amiga elitists.

amiga or whatever has become of it in the eyes of dedicated fans wont get anywhere far beyond that. not today. not even aros can help with that. if you are interested in exec and all that low level stuff, there is no need to long for some remote execsg source. you can look at aros exec source and experiment with it at will..

Last edited by wawa on 17-Oct-2018 at 10:35 PM.

I asked about USB myself directly to Trevor and he didnt seem to want to talk much about it. the main point I brought up was how many things I can get working well on my morphOS install on the X5000 compaired to the same devices on my OS4.1FE install. Keyboards being the main topic of discussion. All i got was the USB stack on MorphOS runs at full load and isnt good, but this isnt what I see.

I would love to see USB unified on both OS's and the drives worked on by the same group. It would help a lot!

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@Acill

on os4 they were deliberately pushing their apparently severely inferior sirion usb stack. afair inherited from infrastructure for some rather limited amiga usb hardware, thus it was pretty late when has gained some usb2 support and was and perhaps still is lacking in stability, dma and such.

the situation is similar as with other subsystems as rtg or gui. you might theoretically port poseidon to os4 and write drivers, but i doubt there is people left to do that and neither it is desired or encouraged.

@Acill

Quote:

All i got was the USB stack on MorphOS runs at full load and isnt good, but this isnt what I see.

Somehow I find this strongly reminiscent of all the "MUI is terrible because it is slow!!!111" statements that have been pushed in the past.

Now, Poseidon USB is slow. Oh well... Gotta trust them experts, right?

Quote:

I would love to see USB unified on both OS's and the drives worked on by the same group. It would help a lot!

Speaking of unattainable goals, world peace would be nice

@Templario

Being the only system platform that locks their driver SDKs behind NDAs will cause that. Most platforms welcome new drivers.

Where is the driver SDK for Picasso96? Cybergraphx? Posseidon? Mediator?

Other than AROS, every Amiga spin-off is afflicted with the same self-imposed problem.

Of course we're not going to get drivers from the public if they have to reverse engineer how to write them.

It also stands to reason that there won't be cooperation when you can't see the other guy's API and are legally unable to talk about yours.

The owners of the companies literally prevent what your're asking for.

Purposely created legal red tape causes 99% of the problems with Amiga use and this is no exception.

Last edited by Wumpus on 18-Oct-2018 at 04:09 PM.