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      /  Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
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Hypex 
Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 11-Jul-2018 6:12:42
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

Hi guys.

Compared to the classics of the Radeon 7000 to 9000 series the HD series is a beast. Especially in the high end. With a view to updating my video card I'm interested in boot time as well as performance, power usage, noise and cooling needed.

I'm interested in any set up that has a Radeon HD attached, be that an AmigaOne and bridged HD, Sams, X1000 and X5000. A1222 if you can.

What I mean by boot time is how long it takes to boot or set up the card. So, just a focus on the video itself. So, how long it takes from power on/reset to seeing a visible image on screen. Perhaps we could call this the logo time.

I'll give a few examples here.

My AmigaOne XE, had a Radeon 9200SE for years, since I built it new. I turned it on and within moments UBoot was all setup and working. A good example.

My X1000 was built with an XFX HD 4890, something I managed to snap up from a UK sale online at the time, with the 4000 series and any top card being recommended. But I was in for a shock. The card is a monster. It took a whole 20 seconds of logo time. That was painful. Every time I needed to reset there was a deadness for 20 seconds before CFE showed any sign of life. And then sometimes it crashed, rinse and repeat. I never got full use out of that awesome 3d hardware.

I later tested a standard HD 5450 in my X1000. It only took 5 seconds of logo time. Wow! That makes a whole lot of difference. Wins over the 4890 in my book. LOL.

By comparison I tested a PowerMac G5 Quad. Don't recall the video card but it might have been Nvidia of similar spec to my 4890. I was shocked. The machine also took 20 seconds of logo time. The X1000 is not looking so bad.

Now, on an AmigaOne machine, it doesn't matter what whizz bang 3d hardware, bus speed or pixel giga flops what not it has. What matters is raw brute force CPU power. Because the logo time is taken up by the firmware emulating the x86 video BIOS code. Now this would be a simple interpretive emulator and without cache enabled dog slow on even the most Ghz beast.

So what matters to logo time is optimised and efficient BIOS code that doesn't need to do much setup on the hardware itself nor execute much code. The more humble the card, the faster it will setup. The more powerful, the more time it will take to setup. Inclusive of hardware efficiency.

Right now I'm researching what is supported. The latest chipset working and with 3d support is the R9 series. I would like a 3d supported card. Otherwise might as well stick with a 5450. Which, I found, has no 3d support like my 4890. But, a few years back, there was a virtual 3d hardware acceleration layer added to the Radeon drivers so what happened to that?

This was brought to my attention when I tested the new Spencer game. It only works on OS4.1 FE I found. And needs supported 3d hardware. On my AmigaOne XE it loaded up into the 3d title screen and then crashed when trying to load the game. On my X1000 it refused to load at all with a 3d error! This was before and after I updated to the latest Radeon HD drivers. Spencer is a new, reasonably priced game, but it requires the latest 3d drivers and supported hardware. Something I don't have.

Unfortunately, the R9 series is around four years old. I can't see any in local shops and only find old stiff on eBay. This is not good. I can't imagine buying a new X5000 and being forced to cram an old rusty dusty video card from a strangers PC! Ewww! And although my X1000 is a few years old, it deserves the newest of the best!

In any case, that is another topic of discussion. For now, what I'm interested in is:
Machine, Card and chipset, Logo time.

Thank you!

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amigakit 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 11-Jul-2018 6:32:56
#2 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2515
From: www.amigakit.com

@Hypex

To run Spencer with Warp3D Nova you need an Southern Islands or Oland chipset Card such as Radeon HD 7770, Radeon R7 240, R7 250 or R7 250X. There are many more in this range too.

The 4 series and 5 series cards are very old now and based on Evergreen chipset.

Official Wiki here:

http://wiki.amiga.org/index.php?title=RadeonHD

Last edited by amigakit on 11-Jul-2018 at 06:35 AM.

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Spectre660 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 11-Jul-2018 9:15:10
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2005
Posts: 3918
From: Unknown

@Hypex

X5000/20 Radeon R9-270X = 10 seconds

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klx300r 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 11-Jul-2018 18:24:48
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3833
From: Toronto, Canada

Quote:

Spectre660 wrote:
@Hypex

X5000/20 Radeon R9-270X = 10 seconds


from the time you push the on button to the time you see the WorkBench screen

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Spectre660 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 11-Jul-2018 18:42:11
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2005
Posts: 3918
From: Unknown

@klx300r

He is asking how long does it take for something to be displayed on the screen after the video card is initialized.In this case the X5000 U-Boot logo.Not how long the OS takes to boot .
42 seconds to finished Workbench from hitting start though .

Quote:

klx300r wrote:
Quote:

Spectre660 wrote:
@Hypex

X5000/20 Radeon R9-270X = 10 seconds


from the time you push the on button to the time you see the WorkBench screen

Last edited by Spectre660 on 11-Jul-2018 at 09:06 PM.

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klx300r 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 11-Jul-2018 21:28:14
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3833
From: Toronto, Canada

Quote:

Spectre660 wrote:
@klx300r

He is asking how long does it take for something to be displayed on the screen after the video card is initialized.In this case the X5000 U-Boot logo.Not how long the OS takes to boot .
42 seconds to finished Workbench from hitting start though .


hmm ok then I just posted a vid on my blog of my X1000 booting up to Workbench and its approx 40 seconds too from Uboot screen and me hitting enter to WB

Last edited by klx300r on 11-Jul-2018 at 09:57 PM.

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severs 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 12-Jul-2018 3:03:40
#7 ]
Member
Joined: 27-May-2017
Posts: 17
From: Tulsa, OK

@Hypex

X5000/20 Radeon 7770, 10.5s.

54s to WB screen. I shoulda got a SSD

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Gregor 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 12-Jul-2018 6:54:14
#8 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2011
Posts: 212
From: Unknown

@Hypex

X5000/20, Radeon HD 5450, Cedar, 10 s.

(35 s. to WB from OWC Mercury SSD, amigabootmenu_animcycles=1, no optical drive)

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Rob 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 12-Jul-2018 20:39:52
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6344
From: S.Wales

@Hypex

Quote:
But, a few years back, there was a virtual 3d hardware acceleration layer added to the Radeon drivers so what happened to that?


Hans wrote a 3D engine to demonstrate the flexibility of the compositing system built into OS4.1. It is not part of the RadeonHD driver.

Daniel Müßener has made us of this for some of his own games.

You can get a demo of Wings Battlefield below.

http://www.goldencode.de/download.php?file=WingsBattlefield_Demo_AOS4_RadeonHD_Compositing.lha

Quote:
This was brought to my attention when I tested the new Spencer game. It only works on OS4.1 FE I found. And needs supported 3d hardware. On my AmigaOne XE it loaded up into the 3d title screen and then crashed when trying to load the game.


What type of crash do you get? If it's a GR then you should send a report to Amiboing. Before that you should confirm that you have the latest version of MiniGL installed.

Quote:
Unfortunately, the R9 series is around four years old. I can't see any in local shops and only find old stiff on eBay.


Radeon R7 250 cards are easier to find new.

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Hypex 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 14-Jul-2018 3:30:14
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@amigakit

Thanks for your info. Yes I found all this out in the last week or so. If I'd known this was going to happen I would have bought a new Radeon four years ago.

Perhaps I should get a new spare in time for the next Radeon drivers update.

Oh you didn't post your times.

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Hypex 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 14-Jul-2018 14:39:48
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@All

Thanks for reporting your results. I thought there were more then five people reading AW who had an OS4 machine with a RadeonHD. But no one else showed up.

It also seems I was a bit off with my timing. I tested my X1000 before and it took ten seconds from off for my monitor to acivate the screen. Though I'm hoping some of that is the monitor itself.

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Hypex 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 14-Jul-2018 15:20:20
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Rob

Quote:
Hans wrote a 3D engine to demonstrate the flexibility of the compositing system built into OS4.1. It is not part of the RadeonHD driver.


Is it available seperately as part of Warp3D or something? I suppose there would be much work writing a MiniGL wrapper so that 3d apps could use this virtiual 3d engine. I could always try Wapz3d!

Quote:
You can get a demo of Wings Battlefield below.


I also tried this on MorphOS. Thanks. It runs really well on my X1000 in full HD.

Quote:
What type of crash do you get? If it's a GR then you should send a report to Amiboing. Before that you should confirm that you have the latest version of MiniGL installed.


It's an ISI. ­Bizarre. Seems to be in unknown space but crashing on a cmp instruction.

I don't know what MiniGL version. It's currently in my out of service XE.

Quote:
Radeon R7 250 cards are easier to find new.


Yes I see that. I did find some R9 example on eBay but at close to 500 bucks, nup!

I compared all the supported chipsets against a HD4890 on http://gpuboss.com but only the R9 matched it. Of course, it just compars the spec, real world perfomance is where it matters. Or matters on an AmigaOne.

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Anonymous 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 14-Jul-2018 15:49:06
# ]

0
0

@Hypex

- X1000
- RadeonHD7750
- 4 GB Ram (2 GB visible/usable)
- 500 GB SSD
- Catweazel and LAN Card installed in PCI
- BenQ BL3200 connected through DVI

-> 12 or so seconds until the monitor's power light first turns from yellow to white (indicates that it has a connection over the cable, but no visible display yet)
-> 17.18 seconds until the X1000 boot/firmware/CFE logo comes up

Didn't check the time it needs to boot into WB completely, because it's still way faster than the PC, so i don't care.

 
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Rob 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 14-Jul-2018 16:31:23
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6344
From: S.Wales

@Hypex

Quote:
Is it available seperately as part of Warp3D or something?


The demo should be in the media drawer of your X1000 install CD and both the demo and source are available on Hans' website.

[Link

Quote:
suppose there would be much work writing a MiniGL wrapper so that 3d apps could use this virtiual 3d engine.


I don't think that's something in the scope of the engine. You'd basically have to create a new API based on the engine and it's not really practical to create something we already have and that does a better job of it.

On the subject of MiniGL. Daniel is currently working on a MiniGL wrapper for Nova so you can run current MiniGL apps without the need of a separate driver for the legacy Warp3D.

Quote:
Yes I see that. I did find some R9 example on eBay but at close to 500 bucks, nup!


Currently clock speed is the most important factor in choosing a card to use with Amiga OS. This is because the APIs, or at least the software currently using them do not take advantage of the massive parallelisation offered by these cards.
I got an R9 280 but would have been better off with a 270X since the clock speeds are higher than on my card and some R7 250 cards even have a faster clock speed than some 280 cards.

I think an R7 card is probably the most sensible choice for Amiga OS hardware. It's also worth noting that support for Radeon RX cards is currently on the way for Amiga OS.

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nbache 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 14-Jul-2018 21:34:04
#15 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Apr-2003
Posts: 1034
From: Copenhagen, Denmark

@Hypex

X1000 with Radeon HD 6670, Dell 30" monitor with 2560×1600.

Around 11 secs to blue LED on monitor, around 32 secs to first image (the grey X1000 logo screen).

This is after turning the machine off and waiting for the monitor to go to sleep. A case reset works significantly faster for both parts.

Best regards,

Niels

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nubechecorre 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 14-Jul-2018 22:28:55
#16 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Nov-2003
Posts: 895
From: San remo -Italy-

Just to let you know that with my Sam440ep i am able to play Spencer demo. It hasn't all the 3d effects that you have with a modern 3d graphic card (that I suggest you to buy if your system support it) but it's playable (at least the demo).

So i don't know why it doesn't start on your system..

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outrun1978 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 21-Jul-2018 11:50:49
#17 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2015
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@hypex

How about this then? Switch on to MorphOS desktop in 16 seconds on the X5000. Check out the 2nd video

http://amigax5000.blog/2018/07/19/morphos-3-11/

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Hypex 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 20-Oct-2018 10:18:04
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@outrun1978



Yes I bet MOS uses a compressed boot image. Smaller and faster to load.

But how long does your X5000 take to set up?

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outrun1978 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 20-Oct-2018 11:04:10
#19 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2015
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Not sure what you trying to ask here in terms of setup?

On The X5000 MorphOS is by far the quickest to load in about 16 seconds from switch on of the machine to desktop
AmigaOS will take about 40 seconds
Linux will take over a minute as it runs a read of the kernel from the usb and set up of all the onboard hardware prior to loading Ubuntu

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Hypex 
Re: Interested in boot time of typical Radeon HD cards
Posted on 20-Oct-2018 15:36:09
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@outrun1978

By set up I mean from power on to logo.

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