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      /  Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
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amigang 
Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 13:01:47
#1 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1501
From: Cheshire, England

So Apple has gone and done it and is moving to arm cpu for its hardware within the next two years, not that surprise when I first saw the iPad/tablet based on mobile hardware / mobile iOS (dont forget at the time a lot of people thought it would be macOS /x86 based) I thought they would make the move.

What do Amigans think?

Last edited by amigang on 23-Jun-2020 at 01:03 PM.

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dirkzwager 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 13:12:04
#2 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Aug-2019
Posts: 127
From: Belgium, LImburg, Bilzen

@amigang

I have Amiga os 3.XX running on my PI 3B + under emulation. That works pretty well. This is also an ARM.
Of course it would be fantastic if Amiga os4 would run on ARM natively. fast and cheap. But I really don't expect this.
If we have been waiting for years and years for a few drivers for A1222 ... then it seems clear to me. Not to mention Amiga os4.2 with a decent update.

But I would be very happy if it were on intel or AMD.
I personally don't think Intel and AMD have been written off. They are not stupid there either. But times change, of course.
In the meantime I will continue to have fun with my Sam 460 and my Powermac with Morphos.

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Lou 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 13:13:29
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4031
From: Rhode Island

Some of us have been asking for this from "Amiga" for the past 6 years....
The writing has been on the wall, only zealots have been too blind to see it.

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DenisPaul 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 13:15:53
#4 ]
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Joined: 14-Sep-2015
Posts: 5
From: Bordeaux, France

Good news ! Apple is more attractive with specific hardware.

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BigD 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of Apple
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 14:21:53
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5370
From: UK

@amigang

Quote:
Apple moving to arm, the end of x86


There is a fair bit of pro-Apple spin in the way you've named the thread plus the 64-bit x86 CPUs that Apple use are x86-64 technically!

x86-64 was the making of the Mac because it showed the quality of the hardware (discrete GPU performance and thermal throttling aside) on a level playing field with the other manufacturers. They were generally good machines (though under powered) for a premium 'quality tax' in most instances. They also allowed you to use macOS which was a pleasant and snappy experience (especially during their optimisation phase releases e.g. Snow Leopard and El Capitan).

Now we are truly entering 'gadget jewellery' territory that the iPhone / iPad already inhabit in the CE space. It has been a running joke that the MacBook Pro is no longer a 'Pro' machine and the Mac Pro until recently hadn't seen its specs updated since 2013!

Now that they can spin the marketing and ruthlessly control the release schedules of their machine I expect the 'Apple Distortion Field' to be used to full effect to convince us that these are faster, more efficient and better machines than they would have been if relying on Intel CPUs.

White lies, spin, massive profit margins and marketing are what Apple excel at now not quality hardware like in the iBook G4 / Powerbook through to the pre-Retina Macbook Pro days.

Good luck to them but the 'Think Different', Aqua UI, iDVD developing 'Killer App' Apple of the recent past is dead. Maybe it died with Jobs and most definitely died when Jony Ive left but I think it died when OSX Tiger rolled out the door as a pretty much a feature complete modern replacement for MacOS OS9! Henceforth, Apple redirected their attention onto phones, tablets and ultimately iOS. The Mac could never be the 'apple' of Apple's eye again and so its fall from grace began.

Sure, you'll still see them in Starbucks and in the latest Summer blockbuster perfectly networking with alien organic / quantum computer systems to spread a Cocoa developed virus . However, in the world of serious computing the Mac will be relegated completely to an iOS device with a keyboard. It will be the living dead and like the Amiga a relic of history and a reminder of when you had a choice in what software AND hardware you could use for serious computing.

Here's to you Apple Mac and thanks for the memories

Last edited by BigD on 23-Jun-2020 at 02:26 PM.

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golem 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of Apple
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 15:27:31
#6 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2004
Posts: 32
From: Nottingham, UK

@amigang
It makes sense if they can make them cheaper and use less power. I think Apple die is smaller too. I hope it does not mean flagship apps will become more like iOs versions - although these days they are just as useful for most things.



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Rose 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of Apple
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 15:50:39
#7 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 707
From: Unknown

X86 is dead because only 85% of market is staying on it!

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LarsB 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of Apple
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 16:42:38
#8 ]
Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2019
Posts: 44
From: Unknown

@BigD I agree with you. So far the ARM stuff is not the big thing when it comes to desktop computing. But Apple has much resources and it has the technology. They got their Axx chips and they develop their own GPU units. Both are atm not optimised for desktop computing. But Apple would have control over it and the patents. They also want to get rid of the Hackintosh computers which show that a better performance to a cheaper price is not witchcraft. When it comes to ARM and powercomputing they have 64 Bits and the Fukagu computer is pretty fast. But they have a lower clockrate. Thats not good when it comes to desktop computing

Lets see if the new computers will become more a smartphone with keyboard or more.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 17:08:48
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11384
From: Norway

@amigang

This can be the end of Apple, or maybe the screw up ARM like they did with PowerPC.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Jun-2020 at 05:49 PM.

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IridiumFX 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of Apple
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 19:22:26
#10 ]
Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2017
Posts: 28
From: London, UK

I was watching the WWDC yesterday and I think my reaction to most of the events was at best ... meh ... widgets. Cool. Like my first Android phone. iPad news? meh. Watch? I have one and has been sitting on a shelf for 6 months. The CPU change was largely expected. Every single analyst predicted that and there was a rumor anthology that proved to be 100% spot on.

The take home for me was that I no longer need to replace my first gen Retina MacBook Pro, saving quite some money this year, and that ... well ... we have a new Commodore. Custom Chips? Check. Custom CPU? Check. Custom OS? Check. The world against them? Check. I think I may have smiled thinking of my 20-ies mentally visualizing an "Intel Outside" logo ... but that was for a split-second.

I like competition. This move will wake up intel. I think everyone won. And given there's some binary translation effort to run 68K code on ARM in our community, The Amiga (indirectly) wins too.

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OneTimer1 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 19:37:05
#11 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 601
From: Unknown

@amigang

If I want to make a strong desktop computer, I need a strong CPU.

Intel or AMD have strong CPUs, but ARM is a complete platform change, it means incompatibilities, problems with older applications and losing customers to Windows/Linux because it ran better on the older desktops.

Apple's users lacked a real desktop for nearly a year before they introduced the new cheese grater, maybe they will leaf the PC market.

Edit: typos

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 23-Jun-2020 at 10:59 PM.

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Yssing 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 20:05:54
#12 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 1019
From: Unknown

Far from the first time Apple changed cpu, probably wont be the last either.

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Chris_Y 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of Apple
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 20:19:38
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3140
From: Beds, UK

@LarsB

Quote:

LarsB wrote:
@BigD I agree with you. So far the ARM stuff is not the big thing when it comes to desktop computing. But Apple has much resources and it has the technology. They got their Axx chips and they develop their own GPU units. Both are atm not optimised for desktop computing. But Apple would have control over it and the patents. They also want to get rid of the Hackintosh computers which show that a better performance to a cheaper price is not witchcraft. When it comes to ARM and powercomputing they have 64 Bits and the Fukagu computer is pretty fast. But they have a lower clockrate. Thats not good when it comes to desktop computing


I've been using a Raspberry Pi 4 as... hmm... I hesitate to say "main computer" but that's probably an accurate description, as I've been using it for everything except the odd thing I've had to use Windows for (and work stuff which I've decided is better suited to a Linux laptop/netbook - Intel based but probably not much difference performance wise!). OK, so that's a 50 board. It's a little slow at times, and can't really cope with 3D stuff I've seen web pages try to do, but I managed some simple video editing with little bother and it's perfectly capable for most tasks. You probably wouldn't want to play the latest games on it. I certainly wouldn't expect Apple to release something with the same performance, I'm just saying that as a baseline, you can run a full modern desktop system on a low powered ARM processor.

As I say, it's about 50. Apple are likely to sell their desktops for at least 20 times that, and like when they switched to x86, you can bet they'll ramp up the power to compensate. If it doesn't run Photoshop at a comparable speed to the current Macs, there's absolutely no way they would be going ahead with this.

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g01df1sh 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of Apple
Posted on 23-Jun-2020 21:24:07
#14 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2009
Posts: 1675
From: UK

First there was Hackintosh next we might get Arostosh :)))

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of Apple
Posted on 24-Jun-2020 1:42:04
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2221
From: Minnesota, USA

@thread

As I'm looking at my Pinebook Pro with its Rockchip RK3399 AArch64 ARM processor I'm thinking it would be better to slip an FPGA into its M.2 PCIe socket and work from there. It'll be cheaper than a Macbook and run almost as much software.

As far as the snappy experience of my Intel-based Mac Mini, it wilted away from MacOS after Snow Leopard went unsupported and I installed Linux on it for an equally snappy and longer-supported experience. Now I've scavenged the power supply for use with a PPC Mac Mini to run MorphOS. Apple is one of those companies that's better to sponge castoff hardware from than it is to try to stay up-to-date with.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 24-Jun-2020 2:50:40
#16 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1041
From: Unknown

Im sorry, but some of the comments here really made me go LOL! Why all these talks about phones and tablets? And... Raspberry PIs? Really?!



For the record, Apple has been designing and producing their own CPUs in-house for half a decade, and while they have only used them in mobile devices so far, it has been obvious for years that they have been aiming much higher with their designs, who has been vastly over-performing for such devices.

It was many micro architectures ago that people were struck by the fact that their cell phone CPUs competed on par with laptop version of Intels Core i7. Some micro architecture later, their chips actually competed with full-blown desktop Core i5s. And this while being powered by a tiny phone battery, completely passively cooled, very few cores on chip and typically clocked at speeds slightly above 1GHz with burst speeds of around 2-2.5GHz.

We were many who thought: Heck, if this passively cooled little thingy can compete (and even outperform) a full desktop Core i5, imagine what it could do with proper power supply, more cores, and proper desktop heat sinks! What clock could be achieved with such power/heat efficiency characteristics? 4GHz? 5GHz?

And that was a few micro architectures ago in fact, and each new micro architecture has brought some 20%-40% improvements in performance and efficiency compared to the previous one. Every time.

They have been able do make the jump away from x64 gracefully for years, had they wanted to. Now they seem to do it!

It will be cool to learn about their new proper desktop and laptop CPUs.

I dont think they will be much like the Raspberry PI at all...



(BTW, if anyone is interested in reading up on the ARM evolution the past couple of years, there is a huge ARM-thread with lots of info collected over at Morph.zone.)

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 24-Jun-2020 3:27:19
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2221
From: Minnesota, USA

@TRIPOS

Apple's walled-garden approach to software is stifling. The cost may be worth it to somebody but anyone who needs a system long-term should look elsewhere. macOS 11 may be obsoleting itself every 3 years or so. Not good. Powerful hardware with nothing to run on it in 3 years. Did you read about what I did with my Core2 Duo Mac Mini? That won't even be an option with Apple's DRM.

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Amigo1 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 24-Jun-2020 15:41:07
#18 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1564
From: the Clouds

@body

Besides my two Amigas, I too have ARMs and use them, but when I need speed I use my LEGs.

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BSzili 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of Apple
Posted on 24-Jun-2020 17:49:39
#19 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 388
From: Unknown

@Rose

It's definitely on its last legs!

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Hypex 
Re: Apple moving to arm, the end of x86
Posted on 24-Jun-2020 17:54:56
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9983
From: Greensborough, Australia

@amigang

LOL. I don't think Apple moving away from Intel will be the end of x86. x86 will survive without Apple to boost it's performance in the market place.

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