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bison 
New message on amiga.com
Posted on 18-Oct-2020 1:22:20
#1 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1700
From: N-Space

Try to contain your excitement, but there's a new[1] ROT13-encoded message on amiga.com, which when decoded says:

Quote:
There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things; because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new.

This is part of a quote by Niccolo Machiavelli::

https://www.azquotes.com/quote/413811

I like it better than some of the previous quotes. It rings true, and is probably a harbinger of things to come, assuming the lawsuit goes a certain way.



1. I say new, but it could have been there for some time.

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matthey 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 18-Oct-2020 4:13:30
#2 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 834
From: Kansas

@bison
The Niccolo Machiavelli quote is not too long to paste here.

Quote:

It ought to be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things. Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new. This coolness arises partly from fear of the opponents, who have the laws on their side, and partly from the incredulity of men, who do not readily believe in new things until they have had a long experience of them.


It is from his popular book called "The Prince" which is about a malevolent prince. It was banned by the Catholic church and was read by, and likely influenced, King Henry VIII, Napoleon, Mussolini and Stalin but also contributed to Republic philosophy especially in England and what later became the U.S. The logic and utilitarian ethics are too often compelling even though Niccolo was likely not in favor of them, exposing deceit and using satire, but rather supported republic ideals (some later readers probably did not understand and used the book as a pattern to rule).

The quote above does seem to be applicable for the Amiga. Mike Battilana hasn't done much yet besides try to consolidate and defend his intellectual assets and the Amiga community is already split with more than a few people considering him bad for the Amiga. Those in power often try to retain their control by corrupting the law (Hyperion?). The most dangerous evil is not chaotic evil but lawful evil.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 18-Oct-2020 5:24:55
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11452
From: Norway

@matthey

Quote:
and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new


Well Amiga Community has long experience with Open Source now. And I donít think anyone can say it has 100% success.

it looks to me that at least some developers do make stuff and is able to make stuff that people willing to pay for, and they are able to work 100% on it, most developer do not, there is no right or wrong, way to do things, some project are hugely successful as open source, some are not.

Hoarding source code is a bad thing, which I agree with, if someone has not done anything with if for one year, maybe its time give someone else a chance. MIT license is good idea, because you pick the project up again when you have the time. (but such desertions should be done by the developers not enforced up on the developers.)

Quote:
who have the laws on their side,


Typical work is owned by creator of that work, I know that does mean much to Cloanto, (Mike Battilana) as he is collector of other peopleís work, and is in the business of selling other peopleís work for ages.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Oct-2020 at 05:26 AM.

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kolla 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 18-Oct-2020 9:37:10
#4 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1543
From: Trondheim, Norway

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
And I donít think anyone can say it has 100% success.


What was not successful? And why was it not successful?

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LarsB 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 18-Oct-2020 11:21:19
#5 ]
Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2019
Posts: 59
From: Unknown

@bison Machiavelli? Known for his treacerous tactics..

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redfox 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 18-Oct-2020 19:14:24
#6 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1751
From: Canada

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agami 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 20-Oct-2020 2:48:43
#7 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 575
From: Melbourne, Australia

@LarsB

Quote:
@bison Machiavelli? Known for his treacerous tactics.

One man's treachery is another man's revolution.

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Amigo1 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 20-Oct-2020 10:03:26
#8 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1569
From: the Clouds

@LarsB

Quote:

LarsB wrote:
@bison Machiavelli? Known for his treacerous tactics..



As far as I read into the life of Macchiavelli, the treacherous-thingy was kind of a misquote.

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kamelito 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 24-Oct-2020 16:22:29
#9 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Jul-2004
Posts: 732
From: Unknown

What did Cloanto developed for the Amiga after PPaint during decades?
Nothing, so what are they going to do if they win?
I really donít understand. They say that they barely make money with Amiga Forever and they filled a lawsuit against Hyperion because AmigaOS 3.14 makes their rom obsolete meaning people want new stuff not old 3.X stuff. Since they donít make money they loose nothing.
Donít tell me they have the obligation to protect the IP.

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cdimauro 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 24-Oct-2020 18:13:23
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2161
From: Germany

@kamelito Quote:

kamelito wrote:
What did Cloanto developed for the Amiga after PPaint during decades?
Nothing, so what are they going to do if they win?

Opening the sources, as it was already stated by Michele (Cloanto's owner).
Quote:
I really donít understand. They say that they barely make money with Amiga Forever and they filled a lawsuit against Hyperion because AmigaOS 3.14 makes their rom obsolete

Or because Hyperion infringed Cloanto's IP & copyrights?

Do you think that a company which owns some properties should give up if someone is illegally using them?
Quote:
meaning people want new stuff not old 3.X stuff.

If there's a market for new stuff, then it can be developed as well using the properties of the legit owner. It's just a matter to ask and finding an agreement.

Hyperion doesn't pay Amiga o.s. 3.1.4+ developers, so I don't think that it could be difficult to find an agreement...
Quote:
Since they donít make money they loose nothing.

They loose money, but even if they don't loose money I don't see why they shouldn't protect their properties.
Quote:
Donít tell me they have the obligation to protect the IP.

No, but I would have done the same in their position. And not even searching for an agreement: go straight to defend the rights 'til the end.

Last edited by cdimauro on 24-Oct-2020 at 06:14 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 24-Oct-2020 18:31:38
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11452
From: Norway

@cdimauro

Way should Cloanto be allowed sell software written by Hyperionís developers? Has Cloanto paid the developerís? Has Cloanto offered to compensate for the work, or buy the labor?

Cloanto does not have roadmap, he has no clue.

Hyperion is spending all the money trying to protect the work they have done, legal costs prohibit paying developers, Cloanto is destructive to community and continued development of AmigaOS.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 24-Oct-2020 18:39:11
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3455
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

"Cloanto does not have roadmap, he has no clue."

Are you sure of this?

You don't know people behind Coanto!

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OlafS25 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 24-Oct-2020 18:48:10
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5778
From: Unknown

@kamelito

what exactly does Hyperion develop?

They base their business model on people working voluntary for free for them and selling the results

I do not see a big difference between both there and do not understand why people praise Hyperion

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OlafS25 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 24-Oct-2020 18:53:19
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5778
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Funny comment

you should write if you mean something ironic ;)

I simply replace Cloanto in your text with Hyperion and it is still valid ;)

Way should Hyperion be allowed sell software written by developers for free? Has Hyperion paid the developerís? Has Hyperion offered to compensate for the work, or buy the labor?

Hyperiondoes not have roadmap, he has no clue.

Hyperion is spending all the money trying to protect the work they have done, legal costs prohibit paying developers, Cloanto is destructive to community and continued development of AmigaOS.

;)

Good laugh...

do you mean that seriously. There is no plan or roadmap of Hyperion either, they do not pay anyone and even frustrate the few developers left. You can read that on amigans. And base your business models on people working for free asking money for every update (like it will happen with 3.2 again) is not really enduring concept.

About how happy people are regarding Hyperion you can read this thread:
https://www.amigans.net/modules/xforum/viewtopic.php?start=0&topic_id=8327&viewmode=&order=ASC&type=&mode=0

Last edited by OlafS25 on 24-Oct-2020 at 07:02 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 24-Oct-2020 18:55:27
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5778
From: Unknown

@AmigaBlitter

in any case there is no roadmap behind Hyperion

At least nobody has ever recognized a roadmap ;)

If he thinks different he could explain it to us

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OlafS25 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 24-Oct-2020 19:01:13
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5778
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Thomas Richter is very special, I do not know if he would be interested to work for Cloanto. But that can only answer Thomas R. at that time

Additional there are legal problems. As far as I know they used 4.X sources and improved and integrated them. Nevertheless those sources are owned by Hyperion. So the problem would be that then there are 3 parties involved. I do not know what in this situation would happen. In a sane world all would come to a agreement because of the chance to earn money but who knows.

Cloanto also said they would open source 3.1 and Thomas R. said he is only interested in something closed.

But that is all speculation now

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 24-Oct-2020 19:24:29
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11452
From: Norway

@OlafS25

remember when Cloanto tryed to steal Picasso96, from Jens schoenfeld.
(this is a repeating pattern.)

https://www.reddit.com/r/amiga/comments/ayeitk/jens_schoenfeld_individual_computers_email_claims/

We almost lost a where good developer, thanks to Clonato.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Oct-2020 at 07:27 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 24-Oct-2020 19:38:55
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2161
From: Germany

@NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@cdimauro

Way should Cloanto be allowed sell software written by Hyperionís developers?

I haven't said that. I've said that if someone is interested on further develop the Amiga o.s. 3 can talk with Cloanto, take an agreement, and start working on it.
Quote:
Has Cloanto paid the developerís?

Yes.
Quote:
Hs Cloanto offered to compensate for the work, or buy the labor?

Yes.
Quote:
Cloanto does not have roadmap, he has no clue.

You've no clue what you're talking about.
Quote:
Hyperion is spending all the money trying to protect the work they have done,

Hyperion spent NOTHING because isn't paying the developers.
Quote:
legal costs prohibit paying developers,

Totally false: the developers have already said that they work on the Amiga o.s. 3.1.4 just because they like it.
Quote:
Cloanto is destructive to community and continued development of AmigaOS.

Totally false as well. Cloanto is just protecting ITS IPs.

Or maybe I can enter your home, do my own business there as I want, and you must only shut-up even if you're the owner. Do you like it? Tell me you address and I'll make a visit after the corona crisis.

The only company which ruined the Amiga community with lawsuites is Hyperion.

BTW, Hyperion has no roadmap as well. I'm still waiting the AmigaOS4.2 with SMP (the REAL one. NOT the AMP which Mr. Solie was trying to sell after his original claims), and 64-bit support (NOT the bank switching of the C64-age: Amiga had linear addressing since the beginning).

Two more... decades.

@OlafS25 Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@cdimauro

Thomas Richter is very special, I do not know if he would be interested to work for Cloanto. But that can only answer Thomas R. at that time

Additional there are legal problems. As far as I know they used 4.X sources and improved and integrated them. Nevertheless those sources are owned by Hyperion. So the problem would be that then there are 3 parties involved. I do not know what in this situation would happen. In a sane world all would come to a agreement because of the chance to earn money but who knows.

No agreement is needed: the parts owned by Hyperion can be rewritten.
Quote:
Cloanto also said they would open source 3.1 and Thomas R. said he is only interested in something closed.

There's a solution for that: the source can be opened, but its development can be driven by Cloanto.
Quote:
But that is all speculation now

Indeed. Let's wait for this (hopefully last) lawsuite to end.

@NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@OlafS25

remember when Cloanto tryed to steal Picasso96, from Jens schoenfeld.
(this is a repeating pattern.)

https://www.reddit.com/r/amiga/comments/ayeitk/jens_schoenfeld_individual_computers_email_claims/

We almost lost a where good developer, thanks to Clonato.

You continue to talk of things that you have no clue at all.

May I suggest to get informed, or just take a pause from writing non-sense?

Last edited by cdimauro on 24-Oct-2020 at 07:40 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 24-Oct-2020 19:42:05
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5778
From: Unknown

when and where did Cloanto claim to have any right on new versions?

They licensed the old version of P96 with no support and how it is

And they could proof that. If not why did Jens Schoenfeld not proof the opposite?

The problem was Jens Schoenfeld bought P96 because he speculated on license fees from both Cloanto and Vampire team. That did not happen so he was frustrated. He will stay as long business is profitable for him. P96 certainly was not what he expected...

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: New message on amiga.com
Posted on 24-Oct-2020 20:19:50
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11452
From: Norway

@OlafS25

Alexander Kneer and Tobias Abt wonted to sell it, they found buyer's.

https://oldschoolgameblog.com/2017/04/13/amiga-picasso96-sold-to-individual-computers-and-hyperion-entertainment/

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Oct-2020 at 08:21 PM.

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