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kas1e 
Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 3-Jan-2022 17:03:18
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3516
From: Russia

@All
Lately want to play a bit with old stuff from the past on OS4 and find out that while we have a lot of things done we seem still not to have after those years a patch to redirect those CIA resources / Paula to AHi so games/demos which send data to Paula still didn't works?

I only found a very old version of some hack-patch called NallePuh: http://os4depot.net/?function=showfile&file=audio/misc/nallepuh.lha

But tried this one with Foundation game (which plays intro music (mod protreker files) over Paula only and in binary i can see ciaa.resource is used) and heard nothing. This is not surprising of course due to the fact that this hack was just proof-of-concept and seems to work on "per game hack bases".

Nothing else was done last year?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 3-Jan-2022 18:16:46
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11996
From: Norway

@kas1e

I think exception hander in NallePuh is broken, it looks for 680x0 opcodes, because Petunia JIT, it might not get correct or expected results, I do use NallePuh in chipset.library, but to use chipset.library you need the source code. And works there.

CIAA/CAIB is tricky, there is a lot of code that use busy loops and wait state change, for micro waits, this horrible, CIAA use timing based on clock, and beam positions and virtual blanking, so you have CPU race condition, when sate giver (timing service), and application/game busy waiting, if application take up all CPU power, then timing will be bad.
Some games/demos will also do busy waiting in forbid state, that makes impossible, to support, busy waiting for exact beam positions, that’s also wherry impossible to support due nature of multitasking.

My conclusion working on chipset.library, it might be possible to some extent, but doughty it’s worth it..

Maybe you can patch the exe file instead, For example write custom hunk loader, disassemble the code hunks, figure out where it does the timing, and replace small code parts, before running petunia on It.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jan-2022 at 06:26 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jan-2022 at 06:24 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jan-2022 at 06:20 PM.

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kas1e 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 3-Jan-2022 18:43:17
#3 ]
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Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3516
From: Russia

@NutsAboutAmiga

if patch exe why to worry about custom hunk loaders and overcomplicated the things. Much easy will be to find a part in the reassembled code that calls player over Paula and then just change it to external jump to another asm/c compiled object file with the player working over ptplay.library. Imho much more easy

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 3-Jan-2022 19:23:37
#4 ]
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11996
From: Norway

@kas1e

Decompiling, make changes, and recompiling, is tricky due to offsets, often the decompiler makes mistakes, as well as the compiled code might not produce the same result, introducing new bugs, if the code was commercial or you don’t own it, it be better if patch was external, without having to distribute modified binaries. that’s what I was thinking.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jan-2022 at 07:32 PM.

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kas1e 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 3-Jan-2022 19:27:48
#5 ]
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Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3516
From: Russia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Sure. After all done for public release all can be done by patching. Just who can do that :)

ps. do you have fixed nallepuh for OS4 which works today ?

Last edited by kas1e on 03-Jan-2022 at 07:28 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 3-Jan-2022 20:30:29
#6 ]
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11996
From: Norway

@kas1e

I have only experimented with the code, from what I can tell, the code is not broken, the only thing that can be broken is the exception handler part.

I should be able to get it working.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jan-2022 at 08:32 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jan-2022 at 08:31 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jan-2022 at 08:30 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 4-Jan-2022 1:02:00
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10356
From: Greensborough, Australia

@kas1e

My apologies kas1e. I actually intended to include this in my own CIAgent and have it working a number of years ago. Which is why all CIAgent releases never had a 1.x version yet as all my releases were 0.x pre-releases since they were feature incomplete or had incremental features. But it was only in the last release which is now 3 years I managed to get timers working which was why I wrote it in the first place.

http://os4depot.net/?function=comments&file=emulation/misc/ciagent.lha

I tried NallePuh but I found it buggy on OS4. I used to crash it a lot with PayBack PPC. According to my comments it also clashed when used with CIAgent. They would both be using the same interrupt vector. But one should drop out if the address doesn't match.

While you mention ProtTracker modules this is harder than simple audio playback. And I wanted to get modules working natively. However, I have the CIA timer interrupt code working, so the logic is there to deal with audio and existing module interrupts do technically run. This is actually a sensitive area as those interrupts wait by checking screen position so poll it and doing so in an interrupt can freeze the system. Of course what is missing is audio playback. Some replayers like MED do weird stuff in the registers. But I ported the MED replayer to AHI once for another project so I've done research and know what's needed for it to work normally.

However, I still want to integrate audio into CIAgent. But first, I need to refactor some code. It still needs some work to prepare it. It shouldn't be a lot, but I recall it needed something, so expect a 0.5 first and then really comes the big one.

Last edited by Hypex on 04-Jan-2022 at 01:06 AM.

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Hypex 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 4-Jan-2022 6:03:39
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10356
From: Greensborough, Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
I think exception hander in NallePuh is broken, it looks for 680x0 opcodes, because Petunia JIT, it might not get correct or expected results, I do use NallePuh in chipset.library, but to use chipset.library you need the source code. And works there.


I haven't looked at it in years but it would have been converted to trap a DSI and catch the audio access on the registers. Unlike the original, which could be done cleanly with the MMU, on OS4 they provide no user access to catch custom register hits, so to do the same thing a system trap vector has to be taken over. OS4 does provide a MMU API but I don't know if it can work to give a cleaner integration. Internally OS4 catches custom access but they somewhat refused to give user programs access to this resource. Local traps can be added easily enough but I found that didn't catch what I needed and inside an interrupt the running task can and will be different.

I know that it's not as trivial as checking the trapped address as exception has to read and decode the PowerPC code that caused it. To see if it was read, write and byte size. And sometimes some codes can be missed that are less common. I had to do this in CIAgent and from my testing with CIA test code it is working well. Though there may be some obscure codes I have missed.

Thinking about JIT, well this shouldn't matter, as at the tail end what will cause chipset access is PPC code. The static emulator will be running in PPC and the JIT code is compiled to PPC so at the end of the day PPC code is what will be accessing custom chips.

Quote:
CIAA/CAIB is tricky, there is a lot of code that use busy loops and wait state change, for micro waits, this horrible, CIAA use timing based on clock, and beam positions and virtual blanking, so you have CPU race condition, when sate giver (timing service), and application/game busy waiting, if application take up all CPU power, then timing will be bad. Some games/demos will also do busy waiting in forbid state, that makes impossible, to support, busy waiting for exact beam positions, that’s also wherry impossible to support due nature of multitasking.


You're right there. As explained above (in my other post) this is what I had to deal with. I was aware of it though. I don't recall if I needed to debug through serial. But I needed to add to my DSI routine a check for screen position as well as CIA. I simply added a false counter that increased on each read to fool the 68k code into thinking the beam had moved. But here a race condition could easily occur. As I emulate the CIA timer code in a native timer device interrupt, which would usually be inside a real PPC interrupt running in supervisor mode, chipset access will cause a DSI and cause my trap routine to be called. This will deal with it, cache the changes, then signal my master task if needed. But, reading beam position will also cause a trap, and it will happen for every time this happens. Not sounding too efficient now with every chipset access setting off this trap and it is a sensitive area to deal with. But, I managed to get it working and without any noticeable slow down, as the access is reduced for beam emulation. I've tested MED replayer interrupt as working and tested games like MegaBall. Of course, by working I technically mean executing the CIA interrupt, since in space no one can hear you play.

Last edited by Hypex on 04-Jan-2022 at 06:09 AM.

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kas1e 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 4-Jan-2022 6:04:47
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3516
From: Russia

@Hypex
Thanks for the answer!

Through seeing how many years it takes to go till v0.4 don't bring a lot of hope :)

I tried to run Foundation via CiaAgent now and that is what i have in the console for just running and exiting from the program:

Quote:

CIAgent Spy Monitor
- API: CIA B: AddICRVector() ICRBit: 1=TIMER B Interrupt: $5F39243E "Protracker MusicInt" Result: $00000000
! Hit: CIA B: ?:TBLO ($BFD600) Data: 236 ($EC) Task: $60B25AA0 "Foundation"
! Hit: CIA B: ?:TBHI ($BFD700) Data: 236 ($EC) Task: $60B25AA0 "Foundation"
! Hit: CIA B: R:CRB ($BFDF00) Data: 0 ($00) Task: $60B25AA0 "Foundation"
! Hit: CIA B: W:CRB ($BFDF00) Data: 1 ($01) Task: $60B25AA0 "Foundation"
! Hit: CIA B: R:CRB ($BFDF00) Data: 1 ($01) Task: $60B25AA0 "Foundation"
! Hit: CIA B: W:CRB ($BFDF00) Data: 0 ($00) Task: $60B25AA0 "Foundation"
- API: CIA B: RemICRVector() ICRBit: 0=TIMER A Interrupt: $5F39243E "Protracker MusicInt" Result: $00000000


But can't hear any music of course...


Will it anyhow motivate you if i will offer 200$ so you can shift a bit priorities and make music player works ?:)

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Hypex 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 5-Jan-2022 3:23:05
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10356
From: Greensborough, Australia

@kas1e

Quote:
Thanks for the answer! Through seeing how many years it takes to go till v0.4 don't bring a lot of hope :)


Yeah sorry. I think I got caught up in that A1 Linux debacle. Until then I'm sure my progress was fine.

Quote:
I tried to run Foundation via CiaAgent now and that is what i have in the console for just running and exiting from the program:


It doesn't go far. The latest one should actually be emulating the CIA interrupt on each pulse. But I notice there a question mark against TBLO and TBHi which indicates it didn't know the ppc instruction.

What edition is it? I thought I had it on CD but don't see it in my collection. The Directors Cut edition is said to support AHI.

Quote:
But can't hear any music of course...


No, since any audio hardware writes would go into a black hole, and disappear.

I'll PM you.

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kas1e 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 5-Jan-2022 3:57:42
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3516
From: Russia

@Hypex

Quote:

The Directors Cut edition is said to support AHI.


Sadly but it supports ahi only for sounds. For title music, all mods play only via CIA still :) Even if you choose AHi it still only sounds and music go through paula. That why i want to deal with
..

Yep, the usual directory cut will go. i had 1.25 version (it is written when you go to the menu).

Last edited by kas1e on 05-Jan-2022 at 03:58 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 5-Jan-2022 17:30:50
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11996
From: Norway

@Hypex

Can be useful to report the program counter instead of the task address.
this why we can disassemble the part that triggered the exception handler.

You should be able to do it from exec debug interface.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Jan-2022 at 05:49 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Jan-2022 at 05:48 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 05-Jan-2022 at 05:31 PM.

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matthey 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 5-Jan-2022 23:06:29
#13 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1289
From: Kansas

@kas1e
I noticed your other thread on EAB.

Call for 68k patch on payment basis
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?s=74f5c46503859c6d689c4e998ce7c8fd&p=1525466#post1525466

Cowcat suggested trying the ADis disassembler but did not specify which version. I further developed the original abandoned version found on Aminet which can be found in another EAB thread.

ADis disassembler (1.4beta34)
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=82709

The changes are significant with many bugs fixed. The C source code is very readable which is one of the reasons I chose to improve it. It also uses a unique AI method to find code which often results in a readable and reassembleable disassembly of system friendly programs. It still lacks some of the features of IRA but these disassemblers are good in different areas. Also, D68k is a simple and fast disassembler useful in some cases when ADis and IRA have problems but the version on Aminet is old (newest version is 2.1.1 but the authors web site gives an error). Of course there is Resource which is powerful but not free, far from automatic and has bugs.

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kas1e 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 5-Jan-2022 23:42:17
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3516
From: Russia

@matthey

Thanks! I tried v1.3 of ADIs on aminet, and wasn't impressed. IRA output was much better for sure. But tried now your updated one, and yeah, that one is surely better.

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Hypex 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 6-Jan-2022 0:42:43
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10356
From: Greensborough, Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Can be useful to report the program counter instead of the task address. this why we can disassemble the part that triggered the exception handler.


Actually that's easy enough. I think my very first test version actually did that. The PC (or IP) and all registers is available in the exception context passed to all OS4 interrupt routines.

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kas1e 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 9-Jan-2022 12:36:37
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3516
From: Russia

@Hypex

Found in CIAAgent a bug: if it calls a few times in a row AddICRVector() whole OS4 freezes. Very easy to catch with Foundation for example: just run CiaAgent, choice in foundation "Paula" and "title music on", and run foundation. It will catch first access, then second, and freeze.

But with help of CIAAgent find out that logic of the game was based on "if CIA agent was opened or not", so i had to make changes as on os4 we don't have cia.resource

Last edited by kas1e on 09-Jan-2022 at 04:11 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 10-Jan-2022 1:47:52
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10356
From: Greensborough, Australia

@kas1e

Quote:
Found in CIAAgent a bug: if it calls a few times in a row AddICRVector() whole OS4 freezes. Very easy to catch with Foundation for example: just run CiaAgent, choice in foundation "Paula" and "title music on", and run foundation. It will catch first access, then second, and freeze.


But how do you know it's a bug in CIAgent?

I'm aware of a bug on the X1000 I've worked around where it calls a privileged instruction in user mode but that was a kernel I hoped would have been fixed in last update. But nothing else. However I found I have Foundation in my Games partition and tested it out. The RTG one didn't crash but it didn't do much either. I have another that did freeze so might need my serial cable hooked up for further investigation.

I was unable to set the Foundation prefs. It loads okay but the window border is too small. It's commonly annoying for these old programs not to take border sizes into account.

Not trying to shift the blame but I wonder if it is a bug in Foundation. Check your spy log above and you will see that it allocates one timer then frees another. Boom!

Does any version work? I couldn't get any to work with or without the agent. I had hoped the RTG version would at least show up.

Quote:
But with help of CIAAgent find out that logic of the game was based on "if CIA agent was opened or not", so i had to make changes as on os4 we don't have cia.resource


If you have an old pre release CD there's a PPC version of CIA resources on there. Scout in the old days gave info on it. That would provide the API in the least. But you could try disabling things in my agent. For example using the switches NOHITS or NOHITSDEBUG will disable hardware emulation or hardware logging. OTOH ALLHITS will catch and show all CIA hits. You can also run it from Workbench and it will run silently in the background.

I looked through my files and Foundation looks like a complete executable. It likely uses some common PT replayer code. If you have disassembled it then you need to find the upper function that starts the music. Then replace it with PT AHI code. In the AHI 6 archive there's examples code for a AHI PT replayer.

Funny, if it used a vertical blanking interrupt, it would work without any agents needed, including running 68K code in a perpetual interrupt. But the sound would still be silent. So it only helps a little.

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kas1e 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 10-Jan-2022 22:42:16
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3516
From: Russia

@Hypex

I made a reassemble of the foundation main binary and preference binary, fixed some bugs in, add new AHI player, etc, so in general it all works now without cia. You can take it from os4depot (in upload query for the moment).

But, what is important, if you want to improve CIAAgent (which we need anyway because we can't fix every damn game/app) you can grab from this patch just a patch for preference binary, and patch it manually, so buttons will be visibly allrigth. And then didn't patch foundation itself, and play with it to make CIAAgent works with it. Once it will works, it will mean that many other stuff which use CIA will works.

In general, Foundation can be very good one to make it works with CIAAgent (i mean original version, not my patched one of course) - because once it was disassembled and i start to put pieces of code on EAB , some developers found very common code, and in end we got that ths is "Protracker Version 2.0 - Release A" player which offten used by amiga devs back in times. And that mean, once you made CIAAgent works with foundation and play music correctly, then a lof ot stuff will works.

And my offer for 200$ still valid once CIAAgent will works with original Foundation :)

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Hypex 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 13-Jan-2022 16:16:18
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10356
From: Greensborough, Australia

@kas1e

I found your Amigans thread. Good job there. I don't know how you got it patched so fast includng a FAQ and installer!

I noticed what tekmage said about Payback not opening audio.device. The other day I was looking in Ranger and noticed that audio device was missing. This is abnormal, a working audio device was one of the major OS4 features. What's next, dumping Petunia into the green bin? I'll be sending a stern email about this one!

BTW I found I have the wrong version. It failed to patch the Foundation prefs. I was afraid of that.

I initially used Gloom 3 to test CIAgent. And even put patches in so the Gloom 3 OS hacks work. Later I used MegaBall to test my timer interrupts and make sure music interrupts can function.

As it stands I'm putting in a framework for Paula emulation. I have to somehow program AHI so it all works fluently. AHI can be a pain this way. For music the library should be used for low level access. But it's designed to set up a particular music interrupt where the tempo ranges are known and samples are preloaded. For dynamic playback of live Paula emulation that is not possible. Aside from that a game could play music then override it with another sound. So that must work as well. However, only the device interface is designed for dynamic playback. But it's not designed to easily play across different channels. Against this the low level interface does not like live samples and it is recommended not to do it. No wonder people have wanted to replace AHI!

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kas1e 
Re: Do we still not have a patch for direct paula->ahi redirection ?
Posted on 13-Jan-2022 22:24:21
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3516
From: Russia

@Hypex

Quote:

I found your Amigans thread. Good job there. I don't know how you got it patched so fast includng a FAQ and installer!


:) We also have patched Exodus already to make it works on modern graphics cards, check this out:

https://youtu.be/cc8Gl24u7-4

And whole thread where i tried to fix two other issues Exodus have on os4 for 10 years:

https://www.amigans.net/modules/xforum/viewtopic.php?topic_id=8678&forum=25

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