This is jut for curiosity why did they go for a cpu card and not a socket?
if it is due to space constraints why can't they create a cpu card with the
flexibility of replacing the chip vs replacing the card & chip.

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@jkirk

PPC chips come in the BGA format. These are meant to be soldered, not put into sockets.
Sure, there are BGA sockets but I'd advise you not to check their price.

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@JurassicC

Actually, i am more interested in a brand new A1G4XE model. If my current motherboard is not working at all, i might consider a new A1G4XE running at standard 933Mhz, which Datakompaniet will sell after orders..even that i have to pay 10.000 NOK for it, including MVA, but then again i can start completely over again by having the 1.3Ghz MCP 7447A low-power G4 CPU-module with a Zalman-cooler, the Sunsway Sillicon Image 3114 S-ATA IDE PCI-controller and 160-200GB S-ATA harddrives!

Expensive, yes but then again it's truly worth it!

Last edited by Helgis on 01-Mar-2005 at 04:44 PM.

@Helgis

Have you thought about asking your dealer if he would consider taking a look at your board?

He may be able to find out whats wrong. Maybe you can get the fixes down at the same time OR since you can't use your board anyway you could send it to someone who might know what to do?

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@AMiGR

Quote:

AMiGR wrote: @jkirk PPC chips come in the BGA format. These are meant to be soldered, not put into sockets. Sure, there are BGA sockets but I'd advise you not to check their price.

Maybe its just me but why would they limit themselves like that?
seems pointless.

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@CodeSmith

Seeing as I am a PCB designer, I just want to mention that this is a VERY silly idea. I really doubt ANYONE would be able to reach 133MHz bus speed on such a design. We're talking 7cm wires from NB to MegArray, then through a MegArray (1cm) with whatever impedance mismatch this has in regards to the NB, then another 10cm or so from the MegArray to the Slot1-type connector, then through that connector (2cm) with another mismatch, then the last 8cm from connector to CPU. total of (very roughly estimated) 28cm, with two mismatches in the middle. Not pretty.

Forget it. There's a reason why the Peg1 had trouble when used at 133MHz. Incidentally, rumour has it this is the excact same reason Intel stopped using Slot1 in the first place

Redesigning a Mac accelerator is an idea. One of these, perhaps:
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G4CARDS/GigaDesigns_1.25GHz_review/index6.html

But how much would that save us? Their prices are USD400 and upwards, and a redesign would mean a slight added cost, thus ending up at around USD500 or so. Is that really worth it? A CPU card of this type is really not very difficult to make (wires should be kept short, busses should be about the same length for all bits and you ALWAYS want better decoupling than what you originally specced, other than that it's dead easy). What costs is as usual 1: components, 2: production, 3: testing and 4: distribution

A PCB of this complexity in a quantity of hundreds (as opposed to singles, tens, thousands or millions) would set me back around 10$ a piece (give or take a few bucks). Then you add a bunch of resistors and capacitors for practically nothing, then you need a MegArray (I should ask Arrow for price on that, would be interesting to know. I use other FCI parts and "we are not amused" immediately springs to mind) and a CPU. ACK already commented that he is unable to get that under 250$, so don't expect less.

So, ok. We have somewhere around 350$ in parts, then you need to actually solder the damn things onto the board, test and ship to customer. Anyone here who thinks he can do this for under 500$ and make a profit has another think coming.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
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@jkirk

They need a BGA version for embedded devices and two pinouts would add to the cost of each unit sold. So either a higher price on the chip, or add the price of a connector. It's the classical loose-loose situation.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@jkirk

Quote:

Maybe its just me but why would they limit themselves like that? seems pointless.

G3/G4 processors are designed for the embedded market, so sockets would be pointless. Nobody wants to upgrade the CPU in their laser printer or ethernet switch...

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@Helgis

Quote:

Helgis wrote: @JurassicC Actually, i am more interested in a brand new A1G4XE model. If my current motherboard is not working at all, i might consider a new A1G4XE running at standard 933Mhz, which Datakompaniet will sell after orders..even that i have to pay 10.000 NOK for it, including MVA, but then again i can start completely over again by having the 1.3Ghz MCP 7447A low-power G4 CPU-module with a Zalman-cooler, the Sunsway Sillicon Image 3114 S-ATA IDE PCI-controller and 160-200GB S-ATA harddrives! Expensive, yes but then again it's truly worth it!

Do you really just have money to throw away? If so, I have a better idea:
1. Give your XE immediately, to someone else. Let them fix it and get a working system, as it seems you have no interest in trying to fix what you've got. Unless of course, something _else_ is already knownh to be wrong with it?

2. Wait on your imaginary 'brand new A1G4XE' that no one has.

3. If you have more $ burning a hole in your pocket, buy a few uA1-Cs for other people.

Seriously, where do you think you're going to get a NEW XE from?

I'd also ask why, but as you never seem to actually answer THAT particular question when asked, I'll mark it off as because you have evidently too much money and too little sense.

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@olegil

Quote:

Seeing as I am a PCB designer, I just want to mention that this is a VERY silly idea. I really doubt ANYONE would be able to reach 133MHz bus speed on such a design. We're talking 7cm wires from NB to MegArray, then through a MegArray (1cm) with whatever impedance mismatch this has in regards to the NB, then another 10cm or so from the MegArray to the Slot1-type connector, then through that connector (2cm) with another mismatch, then the last 8cm from connector to CPU. total of (very roughly estimated) 28cm, with two mismatches in the middle. Not pretty.

Hmm...so I _think_ the Slot-1 to PPGA 'slotkits' were able to run @ 133MHz FSB, weren't they? (Maybe not, they may have been 100MHz?)

Olegil- any idea on how much additional components are needed besides the 'basics' - ie CPU pin X to board pin X, etc...?

Given the prices you've quoted, you're right..no way to produce a 'cheaper' board. It's fairly typical in small quantity devices the parts themselves are < 10% of the price, as labor/assembly is usually more than the parts cost. Having said that, Freescale Pegasos CPU prices are _retail_ at $149-$199, couldn't someone source their CPUs from them? (although if they're CPU 'cards,' and the CPUs are all soldered, that makes it less useful).. That does mean that surely some better CPU pricing should be able to be had though..?

I think I'm still stuck on the adapter idea...IF (big IF, I don't know anything about the MegArray specs, but see several caps and ICs on the board..?) an adapter can be mostly straight-through, it can be done at a reasonable cost. Reasonable in this case may mean < $20 in parts including a run of small PCBs, but Id still expect to see a retail cost of hmm, $100-$150? (plus the cpu card to 'adapt' in this case..)

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster

Datakompaniet in Trondheim, Norway, is able to sell new A1G4XEs when an order is taken, as they told me in a mail. You're right that i can't afford that at the moment.

Datakompaniet also adviced me to let my IT-friend, who has been working with them before and still have a contact to each others, to take a close look on my current AmigaOne-motherboard. He hasn't yet been able to find the real problem, but we do believe it could be the CPU. I dunno...

But a new A1G4XE seems very interesting, especially when having the 1.3Ghz G4 CPU-module that Datakompaniet quite soon also will be able to provide, and they already can provide that Sunsway Sillicon Image 3114 S-ATA RAID PCI-controller

@A3000T

Quote:

You previous CPU died because you messed with the heatsink (not because you overclocked it), and now you plan on messing with the cooler again? Don't blame it on me if it falls off again.

I had comparable issues with my machine's heatsink. The plastic clips that were supposed to hold the thing to the CPU module are weird. One went in OK, the other was fussy and weak. I ended up dumping them and getting some screws instead. Radio Shack in USA sells small screw kits, washers, nuts etc. and some of those worked quite nicely. I'm no longer concerned wiht the thing falling off during use, though it never actually did fall off before. It was just very tricky to get it to stay on before, but once on it was delicate and made me nervous. I'd like to get a bigger heatsink at some point, though I'd have to drill and tap some screwholes there to fit the PPC module, and I've so far been too lazy to sort that out.

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@olegil

Well, the Peg II uses exactly the same socket and gets up to 133MHz normally but it could be that Discovery's signals are stronger.

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@Helgis

Quote:

Helgis wrote: @wegster Datakompaniet in Trondheim, Norway, is able to sell new A1G4XEs when an order is taken, as they told me in a mail. You're right that i can't afford that at the moment. Datakompaniet also adviced me to let my IT-friend, who has been working with them before and still have a contact to each others, to take a close look on my current AmigaOne-motherboard. He hasn't yet been able to find the real problem, but we do believe it could be the CPU. I dunno... But a new A1G4XE seems very interesting, especially when having the 1.3Ghz G4 CPU-module that Datakompaniet quite soon also will be able to provide, and they already can provide that Sunsway Sillicon Image 3114 S-ATA RAID PCI-controller

Helgis- whch means what? They 'order' one from Eyetech when they take your money? If so, every OTHER dealer says no more XEs are forthcoming, so you may be waiting for a VERY long time.

I agree your system needs to be looked at by someone that knows what they're doing.
PS- you can get that card elsewhere, although I don't know why you'd intentionally throw out your existing ATA disks..

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster

I'm aware of Datakompaniet taking the money when and if i buy a new motherboard and paying almost 2000 NOK more than i apparently did in the first place with my current A1G3XE when i payed for it by an order back in late 2002..

I have a Western Digital harddrives. They only operate at the maximum 100Mhz, so you understand why i want to go for S-ATA, as it operates on 150Mhz when using S-ATA harddrives, and OS4 already supports S-ATA...

I am not really sure when the real problem of my A1G3XE will be discovered. I still haven't got a message from him inticating that he has found the error. He's still looking at it. Yes, i was a FOOL overclocking my system! Next time, i will NEVER EVER do that, whatever people say! I can have the right voltage and fan, but never overclock it...

We'll see what will happen, if i buy a new AmigaOne but the G4-model, or if my current AmigaOne could be brought back to life...

@olegil

Quote:

you need a MegArray (I should ask Arrow for price on that, would be interesting to know. I use other FCI parts and "we are not amused" immediately springs to mind) and a CPU. ACK already commented that he is unable to get that under 250$,

Sorry, that was a bit unclear. Do you mean $250 for the socket or the CPU? Sounds from your "we are not amused" comment that you mean the socket, that's a fair bit of cash for a socket!

So, going from your calculation, $10 for the PCB, zip for other components and $250 for the socket. Given that the 1.3GHz CPU card is rumoured to cost about $660 (based off 500 Euro), do 1.3GHz G4s really cost about $400?

Last edited by CodeSmith on 01-Mar-2005 at 09:28 PM.

@CodeSmith

CPU I'd think.

A MC7447AHX1267LB will set you back (from Arrows) $273.83 , (from Newark) $292.45. No VAT or shipping/handling included.

[edit] A MC7447AHX1420LB will set you back $532.07. (Price from Newark, Arrows doesn't put a price on their homepage) [/edit]

Last edited by Eric_S on 01-Mar-2005 at 09:37 PM.

@olegil
Quote:

So, ok. We have somewhere around 350$ in parts, then you need to actually solder the damn things onto the board, test and ship to customer. Anyone here who thinks he can do this for under 500$ and make a profit has another think coming.

At $350 for parts, it'll have to wholesale for about $900 to make it worthwhile to produce. You cannot expect the dealer to sell it for $900 plus shipping either.

The final retail price will be at the point where you may as well buy a completely new A1 motherboard with processor.

(A point to keep in mind: Some manufacturers of Mac CPU upgrades (not to mention any names, but the initials of one is S-O-N-N-E-T, buy lower spec processors, glue a massive heat sink on them, and overclock them to get the advertised speed.)

@terminator


CHEATS

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@CodeSmith
Quote:

Sorry, that was a bit unclear. Do you mean $250 for the socket or the CPU? Sounds from your "we are not amused" comment that you mean the socket, that's a fair bit of cash for a socket!

I've seen the socket alone advertised by Future Electronics for about CDN$250.

As to processors, see Future Electronics for pricing (in CDN dollars). So ACK's price quote wasn't that far off.

So far we have a processor, a socket for it, and we've spent $500+...