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      /  OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
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virgolamobile 
Re: OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
Posted on 2-Apr-2005 10:07:04
#41 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Feb-2004
Posts: 174
From: Somewhere in Northern Italy

@EntilZha

> Yes, there are ideas floating around for a "3d"-hardware-accelerated window system.

Something like this http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog//xshots ?

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Eric_S 
Re: OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
Posted on 2-Apr-2005 10:42:07
#42 ]
Team Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1334
From: Stockholm (Sweden)

@EntilZha

Quote:
by EntilZha on 2-Apr-2005 10:29:28

@Intuitioned

Quote:

Roughly when do you think we will see multi-user abilities and full memory protection and resource tracking?



Multi-User: No idea. It's not a priority right now.

Full memory protection: This is not going to work on AmigaOS. All we can do is a partial protection, but that's it. To do a full protection, a lot of things have to change and this will definitely break a lot of old applications.

Resource tracking: Frankly, I don't know. There is already some resoure tracking facility, but it's not extensively used due to some problems (some programs allocating stuff in one task, and then freeing it in another task while the first task was already killed, etc).


Bah...

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EntilZha 
Re: OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
Posted on 2-Apr-2005 11:30:03
#43 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 27-Aug-2003
Posts: 1679
From: The Jedi Academy, Yavin 4

@virgolamobile

Yes

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EntilZha 
Re: OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
Posted on 2-Apr-2005 11:30:45
#44 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 27-Aug-2003
Posts: 1679
From: The Jedi Academy, Yavin 4

@Eric_S

Quote:
Bah...


Care to elaborate ?

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xispo 
Re: OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
Posted on 2-Apr-2005 12:03:53
#45 ]
Member
Joined: 26-Oct-2004
Posts: 58
From: Unknown

@EntilZha

Quote:
@Eric_S

Quote:
Bah...


Care to elaborate ?


Well I don't know what exactly means that "Bah.." in this context , but I suppose he wanted to express the concern of those people who see Amiga as a viable, full featured desktop OS, with full capability for acting as a server as well as a client system. MultiUser, Full memory protection and resource tracking are, from a general pointoif view, much needed features to achieve that.

The problem I see with that, is that it seems OS4 team has the objective of improving the most they can AmigaOS, not only to support PowerPC architecture, but also to give enhanced capabilities without compromising compatibility too much. This is important to note because what I see by the words of the Friedens, is that these "Tipically Server features" cannot be implemented without a whole re-thinking of AmigaOS, which eventually leads to incompatibility which cannot be resolved until costly emulation is used.

But this does not limit itself to compatibility issues. If we are talking about "Amiga way of doing things" there is a lot to be lost if making such a big leap of system architecture. Full memory protection means dramatic speed lost. It would be a question of balance. AmigaOS would get to the same level as Linux or Windows in security features (memory protection is a first step in achieving true multi-user sytems). But say goodbye to proverbial Amiga responsiveness. It would loose its uniqueness, in my opinion.

Its a pact with the devil. But I wonder if there is some technological circumvention possible. Even when losing compatiblity, may be there is some innovative way of not losing AmigaOS efficiency, and having a secure environment. That's the mistery I suppose. Some idea copied/inspired from the academic sector would suit the job? It should be investigated.

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Crumb 
Re: OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
Posted on 2-Apr-2005 12:04:27
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2208
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@EntilZha

And what about Virtual Memory? It should be possible with the current system, wouldn't it?

Any plan for providing a new message system so new apps can run in a protected environment?

Any plan for adding an option to choose 3.x compatibility yes/no? I say this because some people may only want to run safer 4.x apps and wouldn't like to mix unsafer 3.x apps...

The SMP support IMHO is important because next batches of cpus will be multi-core...

Even if legacy apps only ran in one CPU it may be interesting to add support for it soon...

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Crumb 
Re: OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
Posted on 2-Apr-2005 12:12:58
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2208
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@Rogue

Quote:
Just pick the last of the 4.2 features - there is no only one module left in OS 4 that is not PPC native, and that's console.device. It is being converted to PPC right now, and probably won't be 68k anymore for the final version.


This is not nitpicking, but what about ARexx? There's a native port now?

Even if the code is 68k asm have you tried to use CoyoteFlux PPC680X0? This little app converts 680x0 asm source code to PPC asm source code... You probably won't update much ARexx so I guess that a ppc binary would be nice...

Note that this software may require a real Amiga... I don't know... but a native ARexx port may be nice
http://www.coyoteflux.nl/files/PPC68k20.lha

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Rogue 
Re: OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
Posted on 2-Apr-2005 13:53:06
#48 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@Crumb

Quote:
And what about Virtual Memory? It should be possible with the current system, wouldn't it?


It is possible, and already more or less implemented. Incomplete up to now, pending the implementation of the new memory system.

Quote:
Any plan for providing a new message system so new apps can run in a protected environment?


Not at this point. There is a plan for a few new IPC mechanisms, but nothing as complex as that now, nor will it be there in 4.0 final. 4.1 at the earliers.

Quote:
Any plan for adding an option to choose 3.x compatibility yes/no? I say this because some people may only want to run safer 4.x apps and wouldn't like to mix unsafer 3.x apps...


At this point in time this cannot be made optional.

Quote:
The SMP support IMHO is important because next batches of cpus will be multi-core...

Even if legacy apps only ran in one CPU it may be interesting to add support for it soon...


Even a non-SMP aware CPU could make use of it by running two programs at once. SMP is definitely high up on the todo list. In fact, the new memory system is already geared towards multi-CPU support.

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Rogue 
Re: OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
Posted on 2-Apr-2005 13:54:15
#49 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@Crumb

Quote:
This is not nitpicking, but what about ARexx? There's a native port now?


No, there is no native port of AREXX.

Quote:
Even if the code is 68k asm have you tried to use CoyoteFlux PPC680X0? This little app converts 680x0 asm source code to PPC asm source code... You probably won't update much ARexx so I guess that a ppc binary would be nice...


The reasons for this are not technical.

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Crumb 
Re: OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
Posted on 2-Apr-2005 14:59:10
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2208
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@Rogue

Quote:
Even a non-SMP aware CPU could make use of it by running two programs at once. SMP is definitely high up on the todo list. In fact, the new memory system is already geared towards multi-CPU support.


nice

Quote:
The reasons for this are not technical


Oops! What about using Regina? The AROS port may be a good starting point... I know that the idea is use phyton in the future, but as Rexx is used a lot...

Last edited by Crumb on 02-Apr-2005 at 03:00 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
Posted on 2-Apr-2005 15:19:19
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11222
From: Norway

@EntilZha

Quote:

Edit: Can somebody integrate a spellchecker in amigaworld.net ?


killer feature for AmigaOS4.1 textboxs gadtools and reaction.

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minator 
Re: OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
Posted on 2-Apr-2005 15:50:04
#52 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

@xispo

Quote:
Full memory protection means dramatic speed lost.


30 years ago that was true but it's all done on chip (and has been since before the 68020), it *might *add 0.1% to the memory access time now - hardly dramatic.

Quote:
But say goodbye to proverbial Amiga responsiveness. It would loose its uniqueness, in my opinion.


This is more to do witht he OS / desktop design than the hardware. Windows and Linux are not designed for high responsiveness. BeOS was and had very Amiga-like responsiveness, even on old Pentium systems.

That said higher CPU speeds increase responsiveness even without redesign, even OS X is pretty reasonable these days - and should get even better *very* shortly.

Whats more with the current trend in multi-core CPUs all OSs will get good responsiveness simply because you'll have CPUs sitting doing nothing and they can serve the desktop.



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elwood 
Re: OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
Posted on 15-Jul-2005 11:16:32
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2003
Posts: 3422
From: Lyon, France

@Thread

When I discovered this image:

I then looked for threads about dual CPUs. For the sake of completeness I had the image here.

It comes from Raymond Computer

Reminder: this card worked only on the very first A1 boards. They don't work on current ones.

Last edited by elwood on 15-Jul-2005 at 11:17 AM.

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afxgroup 
Re: OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
Posted on 15-Jul-2005 12:15:06
#54 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2004
Posts: 1965
From: Taranto, Italy

@ikir

Quote:

Altivec is already supported. Some programs like dnet and Mplayer are using it.


Last evolves are drastic.. the original mplayer sources has some bugs in software scaling and color conversion when altivec is used..

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LordSteven 
Re: OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
Posted on 15-Jul-2005 13:34:54
#55 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 217
From: Caro, MI

@wegster

Actually, Windows Pro X64 was released in May, for Athlon 64, and I installed it on a new build with an Athlon 64 3000 for a customer back in May. Many drivers haven't been shuttled over for it yet, or are in beta, but it performed well. Frankly, there's now excuse for the drivers because this release has been planned for three years, and was due last year initially. But it is finally out.

Quote:

wegster wrote:
@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:
@wegster

[quote]while MS still doesn't have a 64 bit Windows that's released AFAIK.

Like AmigaOS4 Pre-release edition, MS has released a "Release Candidate"(precursor to RTM status) Windows XP X64 in the general public. Windows XP X64 planed for release sometime in April 2005 e.g. NVIDIA already has WHQL X64 drivers. Microsoft is basically waiting for other HW partners to submit their candidate WHQL X64 drivers.

Secondly, Microsoft already released a 64bit edition of Windows XP/2003 for Itanium.


Wow, Hammer's back to try to play Devils Advocate as usual. Care to share when MS releases a final x64 release for 2003 server? Want to compare it to how long it's been available for Redhat, SuSE/SLES, and other Linuxes? Yeah, Microsoft innovation and 'capability' at work, huh?

NO ONE uses Itanium, and it was still late.[/quote]

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DWolfman 
Re: OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
Posted on 15-Jul-2005 14:16:45
#56 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jun-2003
Posts: 1442
From: Kansas City, MO USA

@EntilZha

Quote:
Yes, there are ideas floating around for a "3d"-hardware-accelerated window system. Note: NOT a 3D window system (I personally find these to be utterly useless), but a window system that uses 3D hardware as some sort of "super-blitter" much like Mac OS does.


Ooh, I like this idea! First thing that came to mind when I read this just now (ok, so this thread got dredged back to the surface recently, I've not noticed it before I think), I thought "layers on steroids"!

Makes me think of all those layers.library hacks for Classics that would help to speed up window layering on the Workbench.

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jkirk 
Re: OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
Posted on 15-Jul-2005 16:45:51
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2005
Posts: 3347
From: Georgia (usa)

@EntilZha

Quote:
Full memory protection: This is not going to work on AmigaOS. All we can do is a partial protection, but that's it. To do a full protection, a lot of things have to change and this will definitely break a lot of old applications.


silly question on
can't os4 do something similar to xp/2000 and fool the app into thinking there is no memory protection when in fact there is. but for os4 apps make memory protection a requirement. this way we can use the old apps and also be prepared for the future.
silly question off

Last edited by jkirk on 15-Jul-2005 at 04:46 PM.

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Belxjander 
Re: OS4 MultiCPU Support, Altivec, G5/64bit mode?
Posted on 15-Jul-2005 17:11:33
#58 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2005
Posts: 557
From: Chiba prefecture Japan

@Rogue

Qustion : Forbid()/Permit() I have had thoughts along these lines for handling SMP
on a pure 680x0 based Amiga with twin 040 or 060 series presence...

Would it be simple enough to add a cacheless window of memory for "Hardware"
SignalSemaphore locking exec functions by group and having the non-forbid()
processors trigger a looping interrupt until allowed to exit ?

a simple "delay/test fail-loop || success return" interrupt handler specifically for
SMP "spinlock"ing ... would that be at all viable pathwise when the system runtime
needs to exclusively run only a single thread of code ? or would that be simpler to trigger
when an exec call is made and trigger on the MMU trap for the Exec LibCall/InterfaceCall
mechanisms ? (I haven't got any knowledge of AOS4 specifics... so I can't comment on such)

Curious for the above,
Jeremy (Belxjander)

just something to consider as an idea...

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