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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 23:16:12
#140 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@Hitback

Quote:
US gov at the federal level is not yet interested in macs for it agents. (only the CIA issues Macs to some of it's civilain workers) But as a whole the US gov is Wintel.

I was not referring to the federal US government.

Quote:
Do not be suprise if you see Apple selling off it Pc division-

Apple's HW manufacturing is already being done by ODMs. I don't see this as a major surprise.

Quote:

'Hint Apple has position it's self well by being able to run on intel chips so that a Major Chineness pc delveloper may aquire it's Pc division -while Apple concentrates on its mobile devices. Remember IBM never Put PPC in it's consumer PC even though it created them.

Hint Apple is still dependant on PC HW revenue and Steve Job’s has stated that shifting to Intel would not change their business model i.e. no OEM MacOS X licenses (at this time). Remember, IBM’s PC division doesn’t include its OS and application software group.

Michael Dell already stated they are willing to OEM license MacOS X on their Dell boxes. Note that Dell’s willingness to ship MacOS X in it's PCs is in stark contrast to Dell’s willingness to ship AMD processors in its PCs. MacOS X (X86) OEM license would present Microsoft a real world competition in the desktop OS market. It will directly attack Microsoft’s fundamental revenue streams.

Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jan-2006 at 11:19 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 11-Jan-2006 23:26:02
#141 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@Hitback

Quote:
Missing the Point here guys. Wall Street and investors are not looking at long term investments but short term gains. Apple has made it self atrractive ( the old gal put on some nice sexy hi heels - a nice above the knee skirt- a nice soft but contouring to the body blouse- her nails/toes are french manicured- her hair all doneand flowing long) all to attract a suitor for its allling PC division.

One problem, IBM’s OS/2 Warp** or AIX* was never the OSes that the X86 world have lusted over.

*AIX, not ready for desktop.
**No need for yet another Windows fork.

Apple’s PC division is not in the red like IBM’s PC division.

Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jan-2006 at 11:35 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 12-Jan-2006 0:06:40
#142 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@Hitback

Quote:
Enter Jay Miner ( Atari wonderboy) Jay actually if you looked at it created the grapich card market adding GPU to a little machine like the Amiga was revolutionary so revolutionary that Apple was afraid and Ms was not even thinking pass EGA/CGA

CBM didn’t create VGA compatible clone market.

Today’s PC video cards runs on chunky graphics architecture which is not native Amiga planar graphics architecture. X86 world’s selection of chunky architecture for 3D was due to luck.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jan-2006 at 12:48 AM.

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T_Bone 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 12-Jan-2006 0:36:41
#143 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Sep-2003
Posts: 3043
From: here To: there

@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote:
I just had an interesting realization.

Even if we had gone x86 using a single board to mitigate the driver problem, we still would be in a bind wrt hardware today. Why? Work on the current version of OS4 started in 2002 IIRC. Assuming that the engineering problems that had to be solved for the AmigaOne version would have been about the same for any given x86 motherboard


Engineering problems? Why create problems you don't need to have? Pick an actual existing motherboard and use it, this isn't the US Goverment where we have to spec out a 10 page list ending up with a regular Hammer or Toilet Seat that costs $4000 to be custom built!

Quote:
(except for CPU and NB, all components in the AmigaOne are pretty standard), the time taken to get where we are (basically, OS4 final) would have been about the same; namely, OS4-x86 would have been "done" round about now.


It didn't take them long at all to go from 68kOS4 to A1OS4. It seemed most of the trouble was Mai. (or endian issues in Via drivers that were originally x86 derived, which would probably be irrelevant on x86 anyway)

Quote:
Question: what board/chipset that was widely available in 2002 is as available now (other than eBay/the bargain bin)?


Intel 440BX/P3 boards right from intel. Even in the x86 world every generation produces at least a few "staples" that will hang around for almost a decade. But that's not exactly necessary or even optimal, the OS /should/ be updated /at least/ every few years to keep up with new hardware. Hell, that's the whole point in having OS4 in the first place. Even the A1 and Peg went through revisions in hardware.

Or we could just be lazy and steal AROS code for chipset support as it seems to work on everything I've thrown it at so far. Sound, video, etc would still be a consideration, but they would be anyway, regardless of architecture, although those can easily be standardised and arn't necessarily tied to the chosen board anyway.

In any event, you have to update the OS for new hardware every few years, Dems Da Berries. There's no escaping that, and no reason to anyway, as it's like i said the whole reason for OS4 in the first place.

Quote:
Remember that Hyperion only has so many people working for them, so by the time they have negotiated with Intel, SiS or whoever for chipset docs and rewritten the HAL for the new version of any chip, another version is out and the "current" one is obsolete. Imagine what would happen if they need to switch to a different chipset altogether because the manufacturer decides that the relationship with Amiga is not worth their while any more - you need start from scratch.


Even OS developement "happening at the speed of AROS" () manages to keep up, under exactly those circumstances, and I'm sure a name like "Amiga" would have an easier time of it, but even if not, AROS has succeeded here, if nowhere else yet.

Quote:
The only people who can cope with that kind of development cycle are Microsoft and Linux, simply because they have so many people to throw at the problem (Apple does not have that problem, because they are Intel partners)


Everyone keeps up with that developement cycle, there's no escaping it. It sumply "just has to be done." You can't make an OS and not update it every few years for newer hardware, anywhere, not even in the PPC world, as we now know as OS4 needs to be ported to Amy'05. That's not an "x86" problem, that's a "modern OS" problem.

Quote:
So, with hindsight it looks like those advocating custom boards we have control over (AmigaOne, PV, Amy'05)


But you *don't* have controll over them, you're just building them yourself. You can't build them yourself anymore when the parts arn't made anymore, no matter how much you customise it. Mai dies, Communists introduce RoHS (), building the board custom just creates huge overhead that hits the same brick wall. You might as well let someone ELSE worry about the brick wall, and just concentrate on dancing to their much more experienced and capable dance steps as they solve this problem for you, and you just worry about staying current to their hardware in OS support, something you'd have to do *anyway* regardless of platform.

Quote:
were actually correct in their thinking. Moreover, those advocating using embedded chips (eg those new all-in-one chips from Freescale) are even more correct, because embedded devices tend to have a much longer shelf life than desktop chips (as an extreme example, you can still buy 6502s and z80s in bulk, with the companies responsible for these chips having no indication of slowing down production)


Embedded hardware has major problems with regards to generational spanning OS support, the hardware designers don't mind throwing out backward compatibility, because most embedded applications have the software written for that specific hardware. That's why Coldfire never bothered to be backward compatible with 68k OS'es, even though they specifically designed it to be able to use 68k tools. You can only expect to be able to run on future hardware if you choose hardware designed and marketed with that in mind, e.g. Desktop hardware. Embedded hardware isn't made or marketed with that in mind, at all.

...and it'll be worse in the future, as most things that still use PPC are embedded and won't really demand backward compatibility with previous PPC platforms anyway, like CELL for example. Console manufacturers don't really give a crap if their new CPU breaks Operating Systems, as they won't be using it for that purpose anyway. These are going to be the majority of the PPC's customers too, and who the embedded market will be catering to, they're not going to listen to a few of us crying that their new PPC innovations break an Operating System. "Tools for the job," they'll say.

Anywhoo, I don't think OS4 could change at this point, but AROS should certainly never lose sight of this. For all it's developement slowness, it's done an OUTSTANDING job staying current on current hardware. If OS4 could run on everything AROS runs on, whoa baby!

edit: screwed up the quote tags

Last edited by T_Bone on 12-Jan-2006 at 06:26 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 12-Jan-2006 0:40:01
#144 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@Hitback

Quote:
Another chineness competior to Leveno is sniffing around and With Apples new found embracing love for the IA it looks good- because it is the standard and Apple knew this if it wanted to sell its holdings to anyone. think Business here guys not OS or love of a platform. Jobs is looking out for the Money he must produces for his major investors.

Factoring Intel’s marketing dollars and strategic interest i.e. Intel is using Apple as bargaining stick against Microsoft. Intel is warning Microsoft that the current PC situation is not created by Microsoft alone.

Intel have been credited in destroying ACE alliance (Microsoft was part of ACE) i.e.
no need to go MIPS or/and Alpha RISC processors when you have Pentium Pro.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jan-2006 at 12:47 AM.

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syrtran 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 12-Jan-2006 1:20:53
#145 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 27-Apr-2003
Posts: 835
From: Farther upstate than Upstate NY

@Hammer

Quote:
Note that, Mactel can run Windows XP...

No it can't. A little problem with 32-bit Windows not recognizing Intel's EFI, preferring BIOS, instead. And there are no 64-bit IntMacs.

(Note, though, that WinVista isn't all that far off, now.)

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People who generalize are always wrong.


1989 - 500 / 1991 - 3000 / 1997 - Genesis Flyer 1200T / 2003 - A1XE

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syrtran 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 12-Jan-2006 1:51:11
#146 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 27-Apr-2003
Posts: 835
From: Farther upstate than Upstate NY

@treblesix

The irony of 20/20 hindsight is that even hindsight needs glasses.

I can't speak for Rogue or the rest of the OS4 dev team, but I do recognize this:

OS3.x was 68K- and Amiga custom chip-specific. It was not designed to be portable in any way, shape, or form. A large number of the parts were written in 68K assembler (or BCPL) and there were many other parts that required certain registers at certain addresses.

In order to port such a complex group of components, it was necessary to have an environment whereby individual components could be ported individually. These ported components would have to be able to run alongside non-ported components.

At the time that the current incarnation of OS4 was started, there were exactly two options available that would allow this kind of piecemeal porting: dual-processor Cyberstorms/Blizzards, and Amithlon. While Amithlon would allow the side-by-side running of both 68K and x86 components, it was very quickly removed from consideration by Umisef, himself. That left exactly one solution, the dual-processor Phase 5 boards.

Recall that the early versions of OS4 were demo'ed on Cyberstorm-equipped A4000s. Guess what the not-68K processor is on those dual-processor boards. Here's a hint - look at the CPU that's on the AmigaOnes.

IOW - PowerPC was the -only- available solution for OS4. Once the hardware-specific requirements are removed from the OS, AInc can take that OS and port it to whatever other (32-bit, only) architecture they feel like, including x86, ARM, or even SuperH, if they're crazy enough.

We can't go there until we get here.

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People who generalize are always wrong.


1989 - 500 / 1991 - 3000 / 1997 - Genesis Flyer 1200T / 2003 - A1XE

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lavo 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 12-Jan-2006 1:53:36
#147 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2004
Posts: 128
From: Perth, Australia

Come on guys, there is no way Apple will sell off its PC division. Its the core of their "digital hub" strategy, where all these little lifestyle devices require the Mac to work ie an iPod needs a mac to get its music, you need a mac to run iTunes to get music of the web (legally), you need the mac to sync your bluetooth phone with your address book and calender (which are also located on the web). And while Apple are still making roughly 30% margin on each mac they sell, I don't think they are in any hurry to sell off the pc division. If anything, they are building themselves up to rival Sony.

And as for x86 on the mac, the big reason for the switch was laptops. If you watch the Steve's keynote from yesterday, he clearly showed that the G5 PPC was actually worse off in a laptop than the G4 PPC. They run hot and suck power like there's no tomorrow. As much as IBM say they can produce a G5 for laptops, we are yet to see it. Its like Motorola all over again. And once Sony and Nintendo release their new consoles, do you think IBM are going to have enough resources to produce millions of Cells for Sony/Nintendo/MS and still supply G5s for Apple? Apple were having a hard enough battle to get hold of G5 processors before then!

I think Apple made the right decision. It now puts them on a level playing field with Windows, as they will run essentially the same hardware. Then the world can decide which OS is better.

As for Dave Haynie's comments, they are just that. Comments. No use getting all hot and bothered! You pretty much have an OS that is finished that can only be run on (I'm widly guessing here) maybe 5,000 boards worldwide, but won't be released because they are no more boards to sell. And Hyperion are now relying on 1 or 2 small companies to produce a follow up board to run their OS. For us, all we have seen is a website with a competition for a logo for one company and an interview posted by a third party for the other. If you look at those facts, you can see why Dave made those comments. I'd love to see an Amiga running OS4 on PPC hardware on my desk. After a long hiatus from AW, then catching up on all the news from the past year, I'm not exactly filled with confidence.....the fact that the company that owns the licenses to Amiga seems to be the most quiet out of the lot!

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T_Bone 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 12-Jan-2006 1:59:54
#148 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Sep-2003
Posts: 3043
From: here To: there

@syrtran

Quote:

At the time that the current incarnation of OS4 was started, there were exactly two options available that would allow this kind of piecemeal porting: dual-processor Cyberstorms/Blizzards, and Amithlon. While Amithlon would allow the side-by-side running of both 68K and x86 components, it was very quickly removed from consideration by Umisef, himself. That left exactly one solution, the dual-processor Phase 5 boards.

Recall that the early versions of OS4 were demo'ed on Cyberstorm-equipped A4000s. Guess what the not-68K processor is on those dual-processor boards. Here's a hint - look at the CPU that's on the AmigaOnes.

IOW - PowerPC was the -only- available solution for OS4. Once the hardware-specific requirements are removed from the OS, AInc can take that OS and port it to whatever other (32-bit, only) architecture they feel like, including x86, ARM, or even SuperH, if they're crazy enough.

We can't go there until we get here.


The first and only IMO reasonable arguement for PPCOS4 I've ever heard. If I hear "But we can't support 10000 chipsets" or "if it's x86 they'll run Windows" again, I'll scream!

I wish we'd had CSx86 accelerator cards back in the day instead of CSPPC boards, things would be a hell of a lot easier today. (I guess an x86 prototype dev board could have been designed for classic Amiga's for the sole purpose of developing OS4 though, but I don't know who would have funded it)



Last edited by T_Bone on 12-Jan-2006 at 02:06 AM.

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Yogi27 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 12-Jan-2006 3:07:30
#149 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Dec-2002
Posts: 357
From: Chicago, Illinois

Hi Everyone!

Is it me or has the whole world gone insane! A couple points here. This myth that Intel is effecient and does not run hot, is ridiculous. Pop open your PC case and take a look at the fan and heatsink on your wonderful intel processor. It is the size of a CD case, not to mention, many of you have a heatsink/fan on your northbridge too. I have a friend who works as a PC tech, that is all he does all day, and he can go on and on about the crap that Intel kicks out. Did you know that when the intel chip gets to hot, it starts lowering it's mhz to keep the cpu cooler. One problem I have with the current AmigaOne models, is that crappy VIA chip, which is from the PC world. Never should have been included in the AmigaOne, and I happy to see that future boards (Amy, etc), does not have that crappy chip. PC hardware is made in volume, definately not for quality. Apple is fooling itself! And if it thinks it can take on Windows, on Windows own territory, Good Luck! My PC tech friend was laughing when he saw the announcement of the new MacTel machine. His response, who would pay that, buy a Dell, your getting the same thing and Windows has more software!

Second, what happened to choice! Right now as I see it, with the departure of Apple from PPC, that leaves us, the Peg, and PPC linux, as a true alternative. Why is this such a bad thing. We should be different, and this gives us some great opportunities as well. Like hyperion always says, where the PPC goes we can follow. I have been showing the OS 4.0 webpage to alot of different computer users at work. And all but one of them, were willing to try something different. What we need, is an entry level computer, in line with the A500/A1200! Does it really matter that it is a G3 running at 800 mhz. Nah, not really! Did it matter that all the Amigas you have ever owned were way under clocked as compared to everyone else. Plus, it wouldn't even have a fan on the entire motherboard. How refreshing!

There is definately a market for the computer I mentioned above. Has to be reasonably priced. And true, we definately need some new software, but hey, we just got back from the dead. I know we have been patient, but what's a little longer. Look, will never convert your average Joe! They just want a computer to type a paper, browse the web, and print, etc, we need to target the people who are little more tech savy and want to try something different. Won't make us huge, but viable I think. Plus, who wants to be big. I like the whole niche idea of the Amiga.

Yogi

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 12-Jan-2006 3:20:50
#150 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@syrtran

It depends if this IA-32 EFI release includes Compatibility Support Module (CSM).

CSM loads into memory in legacy areas (below 1 MB) i.e. initializing the standard BIOS memory areas such as the Bios Data Area (BDA) and the Extended BDA. The Boot Device Selection (BDS) mechanism appropriately selects either EFI or legacy BIOS.

Gateway sells an IA-32 system with EFI-based firmware i.e. the Media Center 6x0, which uses Insyde Software's InsydeH2O firmware. InsydeH2O includes a CSM for legacy BIOS runtime compatibility.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jan-2006 at 03:35 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jan-2006 at 03:29 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jan-2006 at 03:23 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 12-Jan-2006 4:15:45
#151 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@Yogi27

Quote:

Is it me or has the whole world gone insane! A couple points here. This myth that Intel is effecient and does not run hot, is ridiculous.

Depends on which Intel core you are referring to.

Quote:

Pop open your PC case and take a look at the fan and heatsink on your wonderful intel processor. It is the size of a CD case, not to mention, many of you have a heatsink/fan on your northbridge too.
Mobile heatsinks

PS; it shows both Turion, Dothan and Intel NB heat sinks.

Specs
Duo-T2400 (@1.83GHz - 2x 2MB L2) 1.2V (1.1625V~1.3V), 34A, 31W (Intel TDP),

1.162V x 34A = 39Watts or 19.5 Watts for each core.
1.2v 34A = 40.8Watts or 20.4Watts for each core.
1.3V x 34A = 44.2Watts or 22Watts for each core.
--
Duo LV-L2400 (@1.66GHz - 2x 2MB L2) 1.2V, (1.0V~1.2125V), 19A, 15W (Intel TDP),
1.2125V x 19A = 23.0375 Watts or 11.5Watts per core.
-----------
To compared with 7447A @1.42Ghz, dig up Freescale's max power.

LV Pentium M-778 (@1.6GHz - 2MB L2), 1.116V (?V~?V) ,12A, 10W (Intel TDP)
1.116V x 12A = 13Watts.

Pentium M-725 (@1.6GHz - 2MB L2) 1.34V, 21A, 21W (Intel TDP)
1.34V x 21A = 28 Watts.

Now, tell me
1. max power for 7447A @1.42Ghz**…
2. 7448 availability.

**PS; I already know the answer for this.
Quote:

I have a friend who works as a PC tech, that is all he does all day, and he can go on and on about the crap that Intel kicks out. Did you know that when the intel chip gets to hot, it starts lowering it's mhz to keep the cpu cooler.

Can be monitored by Throttlewatch tool. Which Intel chip are you referring to?

Quote:

One problem I have with the current AmigaOne models, is that crappy VIA chip, which is from the PC world. Never should have been included in the AmigaOne, and

Have you factored in the interface compatibility between Articia S and the available southbridges?

Quote:

I happy to see that future boards (Amy, etc), does not have that crappy chip. PC hardware is made in volume, definately not for quality.

Define quality.

Quote:

Apple is fooling itself! And if it thinks it can take on Windows, on Windows own territory,

PowerPC is not a shield against Microsoft e.g. XBOX 360, Windows NT 4.0 PowerPC edition, Windows CE 2.x and MS Office Mac.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jan-2006 at 04:51 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jan-2006 at 04:45 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jan-2006 at 04:42 AM.

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T_Bone 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 12-Jan-2006 5:55:06
#152 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Sep-2003
Posts: 3043
From: here To: there

@Yogi27

Quote:

Yogi27 wrote:
Hi Everyone!

Is it me or has the whole world gone insane! A couple points here. This myth that Intel is effecient and does not run hot, is ridiculous. Pop open your PC case and take a look at the fan and heatsink on your wonderful intel processor. It is the size of a CD case, not to mention, many of you have a heatsink/fan on your northbridge too. I have a friend who works as a PC tech, that is all he does all day, and he can go on and on about the crap that Intel kicks out. Did you know that when the intel chip gets to hot, it starts lowering it's mhz to keep the cpu cooler.


I couldn't care less about the CPU tempature as long as the cooling works. They all run hot and need cooling, PPC or x86. I'll take the one that's easier to get and is available in configurations I'm interested in, ie: laptop, etc. I'll let the Sysintegrators work out the details.

Quote:
Apple is fooling itself! And if it thinks it can take on Windows, on Windows own territory, Good Luck!


What territory? People buy Macs because it runs MacOS. Do you think they bough a Mac and were "tricked" into running MacOS not knowing this untill they got the thing home and it was too late to return it for a Windows Machine?

Quote:
My PC tech friend was laughing when he saw the announcement of the new MacTel machine. His response, who would pay that, buy a Dell, your getting the same thing and Windows has more software!


What does that have to do with what CPU the Mac uses? Examine that arguement carfully, and you'll find out that that knife cuts equally deep into both Macx86 and MacPPC machines, algebraically reducing the arguement to zero.

He was argueing against using a Mac AT ALL.

Think about it, if someone has already made up their mind to buy a Mac, and run MacOS, and run MacOSX software, they've already DISMISSED that above arguement in their purchasing decision, even before they even know if the Mac they're getting is x86 OR PPC! Where does the CPU enter into that equation at all? PPC Macs don't run Windows software either.

(I promised earlier I would scream if I heard that arguement again, so "AAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhh!" )

Quote:
Second, what happened to choice! Right now as I see it, with the departure of Apple from PPC, that leaves us, the Peg, and PPC linux, as a true alternative. Why is this such a bad thing.


Alternative to what? x86? hell, I could care less what's under the hood, as long as the tool works. I just want to run AmigaOS. Using AmigaOS just because it's running on a PPC is putting the cart before the horse, and sounds like the MorphOS business plan. If I cared about the PPC over the OS, I'd run MorphOS, they have better hardware available and run more PPC os'es than any PPC system I've ever seen.

I would imagine most of us feel the same way, or we wouldn't be waiting for AmigaOS when MorphOS has a better hardware solution.

Ever see Windows NT on PPC? I have, it sucks as bad as x86 Windows. It's not the hardware that makes the OS suck, in fact, it makes no difference at all. The user experience is identical. Set them side by side, and you can't tell which is which.

Quote:
We should be different, and this gives us some great opportunities as well. Like hyperion always says, where the PPC goes we can follow.


I don't want to follow PPC where it's going. I just want to run AmigaOS. Hell, I don't even know where PPC is going. (Except I know it's not going into most configurations I'd want, like laptops, etc)

I don't want to follow 68k where it's going either. Look what happened there.

AmigaOS is my destination. If the train runs x86 or PPC is of little concern provided it gets me there in one piece.

Quote:
I have been showing the OS 4.0 webpage to alot of different computer users at work. And all but one of them, were willing to try something different. What we need, is an entry level computer, in line with the A500/A1200! Does it really matter that it is a G3 running at 800 mhz. Nah, not really! Did it matter that all the Amigas you have ever owned were way under clocked as compared to everyone else. Plus, it wouldn't even have a fan on the entire motherboard. How refreshing!


That's good to hear, that people are interested in trying the OS. Talking people into trying the OS is easy. Millions of people try out linux too, but very few would if they had to buy custom hardware to just try it. That's one reason Amithlon was such a hot seller.

I hate to admit it, but I think free pirated Amithlon systems are a bigger threat to AmigaOS4 than MorphOS/Pegasos ever was or will be, ESPECIALLY by outsiders/people looking to just try it out. Hell, even the expensive legal non-pirated versions outsold AmigaOnes, even though it cost $150 and was only available for two-seconds in AmigaTime. Not that there's no silver lining there, as some people are still around solely because their void was filled by Amithlon.

Man I'm wired. Sorry for ranting. too much coffee, and watching Athiest try to leave is like being in a coalmine watching your canary die. I need air quick. x86 or PPC I don't care as long as there's oxygen in it.

Last edited by T_Bone on 12-Jan-2006 at 06:39 AM.
Last edited by T_Bone on 12-Jan-2006 at 05:58 AM.

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Yogi27 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 12-Jan-2006 7:25:42
#153 ]
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Joined: 11-Dec-2002
Posts: 357
From: Chicago, Illinois

@T_Bone

Well, we will have to disagree on this. I believe hardware does make a difference, not only in the performance of the machine, but how long the machine lasts.

Look, we can argue this till dooms day! I am just going to be honest. As far as I see, if you want intel, go intel. Those who are willing to pay more money for a intel machine that runs Mac OS, knock yourself out. I just feel, come on, having we had enough monopoly already (hence windows). Does anybody want to be different? Why don't we just turn everything over to Intel. This is the problem with computers today. They are about as inspiring as a toaster. And the average Intel machine shows that (Windows or Linux and now Mac OS X). Well, one thing about people, don't think outside the box!

Yogi

Last edited by Yogi27 on 12-Jan-2006 at 07:56 AM.
Last edited by Yogi27 on 12-Jan-2006 at 07:54 AM.

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T_Bone 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 12-Jan-2006 10:00:52
#154 ]
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Joined: 11-Sep-2003
Posts: 3043
From: here To: there

@Yogi27

Quote:

Yogi27 wrote:
@T_Bone

Well, we will have to disagree on this. I believe hardware does make a difference, not only in the performance of the machine, but how long the machine lasts.

Look, we can argue this till dooms day! I am just going to be honest. As far as I see, if you want intel, go intel. Those who are willing to pay more money for a intel machine that runs Mac OS, knock yourself out. I just feel, come on, having we had enough monopoly already (hence windows).


Intel isn't a monopoly, although Microsoft is.

Apple has more choice going x86 than PPC, Apple can run x86 MacOS on AMD, Cyrix, IBM, IDT, Transmeta or VIA x86 CPU's if need be, overnight. They are LESS at the whims of a CPU vendor in x86 land than in PPC land. That's the whole reason they left, the PPC Cartel was taking advantage of the fact that there's no competition in the PPC market to abuse Apple, so Apple solved that problem by porting to an architecture with no CPU vendor lockin and would therefore strive harder to make a product that would keep Apple happy.

It's not 1995 anymore, things have changed. these decade-old holdover "Wintel" type attitudes are about as archaic and relevant today as "Japanese cars suck" , "Hayes Compatible" or "IBM Compatible", which no longer have any meaning in today's world. Heh, at the end there, IBM's were the LEAST compatible PC's you could get, although at one time, the brand loyalty made sense.

The funny thing about these trendy meme's, is that they outlive their relevance, and are repeated for far too long after they don't make any sense anymore. Hell, I took my Father to buy a new car last month, and he made a snide remark to the salesman about how much PLASTIC they used on the interior of the car! It was a ####ing LEXUS!!! He was argueing with the salesman that it must be a cheap, inferior car for not using REAL WOOD! I wanted the ground to swallow me, I swear it, but what really took the cake was when he was trying to Daddy Mac the salesman by mentioning how he might get an Oldsmobile instead!

Quote:
Does anybody want to be different? Why don't we just turn everything over to Intel. This is the problem with computers today.


1995 called, they want their "problems today" back. While you're on the phone with them, can you see about getting my Father a new Olds? One with Real Wood preferably, none of that cheap Japanese plastic crap either. (j/k)

Seriously though, "x86 today" isn't the "Intel of 1995." there's more choice than in any other architecture available on earth, It's not your fathers oldsmobile. (OW! sorry)

Quote:
They are about as inspiring as a toaster. And the average Intel machine shows that (Windows or Linux and now Mac OS X).


How would you even know what CPU is inside? I've used WinNT on PPC and x86, same with Linux. I've used MacOSX on PPC, (haven't used it yet though on x86), in every case, the x86 and PPC versions were about equally inspiring. WinNT sucked on both, Linux worked the same on both. It was the OS itself that influenced my experience, and AmigaOS on anything is inspiring.

Quote:
Well, one thing about people, don't think outside the box!


Groovy! Right on man! Far out, but these decade old "meme's from yesteryear" arn't very progressive or forward thinking either, they're horribly old fashioned and set-in-their-ways. I haven't even had an "Intel inside" since AMD started kicking their butt years ago.

I'm not "against" PPC, mind you, but I'm more receptive to technical and functional details to inspire me rather than anachronistic and warm and fuzzy catchphrazes created by PR departments in the competitive tech industry shortly after the Reagan years. I have a Classic Amiga that already fills that void, and no PPC can touch that kind of intangible inspiration, even though it doesn't run Quake very well.

I understand you though, even if I don't agree. God willing we get some hardware soon, it'll rock regardless of CPU.

Last edited by T_Bone on 12-Jan-2006 at 10:08 AM.

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Stephen_Robinson 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 12-Jan-2006 10:32:35
#155 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Apr-2005
Posts: 1991
From: UK

@T_Bone

Quote:
How would you even know what CPU is inside? I've used WinNT on PPC and x86, same with Linux. I've used MacOSX on PPC, (haven't used it yet though on x86), in every case, the x86 and PPC versions were about equally inspiring. WinNT sucked on both, Linux worked the same on both. It was the OS itself that influenced my experience, and AmigaOS on anything is inspiring.


Yeah, but no but. Sorry, what was I saying, my A1 has a PPC @ 800 Mhz, if I could put it on a Intel based system it would be @3000. And it'd probably be cheaper.

edited to say I agree with post #146 fully. I think to get where we want to go, I wouldn't start from here.

Last edited by Stephen_Robinson on 12-Jan-2006 at 10:35 AM.

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dolen 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 12-Jan-2006 10:35:40
#156 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 90
From: Sweden

As far as I can see there is one option that will bring amigaOS and a lot of users back for sure. And thats going x86-64 (x86 will soon be dead).

But if its going PPC as a desktop OS then it must be something standard that can be buildt by several competing companies aiming for several different OS´s. And there we have it. The pegasos HAL. IF Genesi succed in what they´re doing that is. It´s the path of not knowing.

But going its own way on hardware will cause extreamly overprized hardware that´s about 3 years after the competitors. If someone at all dares to do the R&D.

You AOS4 users that are FANATICS must realize that its not about the hardware anymore. Its about availability, performance,affordability and future path.
And for a few of us ITS ABOUT RUNNING THE AMIGA OS even in the future.

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polka. 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 12-Jan-2006 10:38:17
#157 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2005
Posts: 1820
From: Tortuga

@Yogi27

Quote:
Does anybody want to be different?


This is probably what partly explains the archaic attitude towards Intel and x86 in general that some of us still have.

Amiga was always about *being different*. At a certain period of time *being different* meant *being better*. This still might be true when regarding the OS in terms of "small footprint", "responsiveness", "fun", etc. You will always find ways to "justify" that *your* OS is better than the other one.
Hardware-wise, *being different* is getting more and more difficult to justify. Personally, I won't care too much about having OS4 on either x86 or PPC. I will rather care about price and availability - and thats what would make it A LOT easier to go x86; rather than to use "customized" solutions done by hobby-companies with half of those projects probably disappearing in the mist.
If you look at MacOS, they were basically in the same situation. For lots of MacOS users, the choice for their platform is also about *being different*. This is what makes it so hard for most of them going the Intel-way, although ironically, they would possibly not be able to tell wether they are running MacOS on a PPC or on a x86 CPU.


Last edited by polka. on 12-Jan-2006 at 10:48 AM.

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umisef 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 13-Jan-2006 2:55:43
#158 ]
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Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1714
From: Melbourne, Australia

@syrtran

Quote:
At the time that the current incarnation of OS4 was started, there were exactly two options available that would allow this kind of piecemeal porting: dual-processor Cyberstorms/Blizzards, and Amithlon. While Amithlon would allow the side-by-side running of both 68K and x86 components, it was very quickly removed from consideration by Umisef, himself. That left exactly one solution, the dual-processor Phase 5 boards.


Uh, I think you got your timeline wrong. Amithlon was first shown at AmiWest '01. Where OS4 was at that point is unclear --- it's clear H&P, who were supposedly doing it, hadn't done squat, and it's reasonably certain that AInc were aware of that. Whether Hyperion was already in the picture at the time, unbeknownst to us common folk, who knows. Anyway, what followed was a most ridiculous and uncalled-for PR offensive by Hyperion.

Amithlon was released a few months later, IIRC on October 20th. Two weeks after that (Amithlon was available, working and selling well), Eyetech, AmigaInc and Hyperion announced the whole new OS4 deal. At that point, not a line of ExecSG had been written, and the target platform was still supposed to be able to access custom chips. Oh, and H&P was still cited as being part of things (which probably referred to them contributing a 68k emulator). At the time, it was supposedly expected that OS4 would be released by February or March 2002.

Fast forward to March 2002. Consumer release of OS4 is now expected in May, for the new "AmigaOnepointfive", i.e. what is now known as the "AmigaONE SE", of which limited number are expected to be available in April (and a beta version of OS4 is expected to be available at that time). Meanwhile, Amithlon is available, has had a few updates, and works.

What, however, is not available or working at this point, is anything OS4 related which can mix 68k modules and PPC modules. Because, well, unlike Amithlon, the dual-processor cards can't easily (or deity forbid, transparently) switch between running PPC code and 68k code. The closest thing to a layer allowing something remotely like it is WarpOS, but then OS 4 will not be WarpOS based. WarpOS was a solution for a dual CPU architecture and isn't suitable for what we have in mind (Ben Hermans, Nov 7, 2001).

And it's not like ExecSG and its 68k emulator are anywhere near the point where they can run the show well enough to even boot into Workbench. That only happens a full year later. Up to that point, all the development work for non-kernel OS4 stuff was done on 68k, because there was simply no infrastructure to develop and test for the PPC.

So not only was Amithlon "removed from consideration" only a month after OS4 was meant to be *FINISHED* (not started, finished and released!), but Hyperion's anti-x86 position predates the time when they got into OS4 development.

However, lest someone say I am just destructive, let me offer an alternative scenario, which I invite you to find inconsistencies with. While Ralph Schmidt has a tendency to be "outspoken", I personally am under the impression that he is also honest, if maybe selective, in his facts. So when he
implicates Ben Hermans as being involved in (or "sabotaging the") OS4 negotiations between the MorphOS team and AmigaInc, then I tend to believe that Ben Hermans was, indeed, involved. So let's, just for a moment, assume that Ben has occasional delusions of grandeur, and was contemplating an MS-like position for Hyperion in the Amiga market. Complete control of the OS would be a necessary first step. So when MorphOS shows up in late 2000/early 2001, and *gasp* its authors demand some control over their own work, that has to be marginalized. Then Amithlon appears at AmiWest 2001, and while it may have been a great foundation for a real AmigaOS/x86, it wouldn't have been Hyperion's foundation, so it, too, was discredited with lots of verbiage (and, I personally must say, a distinct lack of sensible arguments). Until, at last, in November 2001, Hyperion gets total control over OS4. Mission accomplished, and now they just need to write it. Piece of cake.....

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hazydave 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 13-Jan-2006 3:41:16
#159 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Sep-2004
Posts: 65
From: Unknown

@Chunder

Quote:
Agreed - ultimately, the situation will hopefully become like other domestic gadgets (e.g. DVD player, VCR, Microwave, TV) where you don't really know or care what hardware is inside, you're only interested in features and compatibility... and of course, aesthetics!


Well, to some degree that's true today. For example, I have a DVD player in my livingroom here that plays regular DVDs, but also DVDs with high-definition video (your choice of MPEG-2 TS, MPEG-2 PS, MPEG-4 Advance Simple Profile, Divx, or Windows Media 9... most of these formats will have issues on a PC, particular at 1080i resolutions). It also plays video or music (OGG-Vorbis, MP3, AAC, various others) over ethernet. And I can download new software updates as they become available, or video offerings from the internet (well, if I could get broadband here). It can also interact with USB memory dongles, hard drives, etc.

Clearly, very much of a personal computer in there, if not necessarily a PC. This is very much what we set out to do with the set top boxes we did at Metabox. Unfortunately, the company killed itself before this happened, but the Metabox 1000 was about as close as possible to a next generation Amiga in 2000. It even ran MUI and Voyager, on a Motorola CPU (a ColdFire 5407, not a 68K or PowerPC). Of course, it also played DVDs and DVB, and for the US version, we were working on broadband video, including MPEG-4.

Today I'm working on other devices; not multimedia stuff, but radio controls for R/C cars and robots.

The main point about personal computers was several simple observations. One is simply that the technology was getting too "big"... you couldn't afford to keep current on bits like the CPU or video card if you only made them for your computer. Commodore couldn't have, no one else did. Period. Look at the graphics companies today: Intel, ATi, nVidia -- they're designing things as complex as any CPU. The RISC people have largely been eaten on the desktop; IBM and Apple couldn't compete with AMD and Intel.

This is not that they couldn't have possibly compete -- of course they could have. As someone mentions further down, there's the Power5 chips running in high-end IBM machines (they don't run the PowerPC instruction set, they run the Power5 instruction set -- PowerPC was derived, originally, from a scaled down Power2 or Power3 chip architecture; PPC970 is based on Power5 ideas too, but it's not Power5). What they're leaving out is the fact that those are massively parallel systems, and most of what IBM sells the throughput of such huge machines, not the specific integer performance of any single CPU. Oh, and the fact such a CPU, if available, would run you something like $5,000 a piece. That's ok in a million-dollar machine; not ok in a desktop.

So the only really interesting areas of innovation in personal computers are in chips or software, and even those far more limited, generally, than back in the days of Commodore. There are of course alternate OSs (I hear Zeta's doing well, and I plan to set up a Zeta machine here fairly soon), and a few are actually innovative, but they're not knocking out the leaders at any great pace. Hell, even the long established MacOS has been losing market share, even after they basically fixed the OS. Part of that, as Jobs is finally now admitting, has been PowerPC -- it couldn't keep up. Much as with the custom chips becoming a boat anchor in the latter days of the Amiga, the PPC has lately been holding the Mac back. You don't have to argue with me about it -- Jobs is admitting the very same thing, now that they have an Intel machine (not that Intel even makes the fastest x86 chips anymore).

Quote:

In the short term, however, I think that Hyperion has gone the right way - abstract the OS in such a way that it runs on a set of hardware that is (was!) available, and which some users already have (classic PPC) and leaves the door open for future ports onto other platforms.


Well, no users had PPC machines, at least not the ones that Hyperion is targeting. Are they planning to port to every PPC-in-Amiga kludge, or not? Last I heard, not.

As for the hardware being available, it seems the AmigaOne stuff hasn't been. Or it's had issues. Or Hyperion bit off more than they could chew. I can't say.. but there has to be some reason it's taking longer to complete the new system, based on just an architecture port of the OS (not to trivilize that, but if done right, it should be completed by an experienced team in about a year) to supposedly existing PPC PC motherboards, than it took to develop the original Amiga.

And there was nothing terribly new to invent here -- this is, after all, trailing edge stuff.

Quote:

Trying to support just the differences between the Blizzard PPC and the Cyberstorm and the A1 has been difficult enough;

If it was that much trouble, they shouldn't bother -- not releasing the product at all is far inferior to not releasing it on some targets. Plus, if done correctly, they would have no work to do -- they would support the AmigaOne, and let other people port their HAL to Blizzard PPC or Cyberstorm. This is, actually, the architecure we had at Amiga Technologies. If so much of this stuff was based on what seemed to be a good idea between me and Andy back in 1995, they could at least take along what we definitely had right

Quote:

imagine how long it would have taken if they had to support each and every different x86 BIOS,

I think you missed the point of a BIOS -- you don't have to support each and every BIOS; you support "the PC BIOS"; it's a standard API. Some may have extensions -- you don't need to support them. The real flaw in the PC BIOS is simply that it's non-reentrant code that only runs in real mode. So to use it, other than enumerate motherboard resources at boot time and launch your boot loader, you need to ####ize your OS.

Quote:

north/southbridge combination, motherboard features, etc.

Also not a real issue. The motherboard BIOS intializes all of the stuff on the motherboard. If there are full fledged devices there, you'll need drivers, but there just aren't all that many devices out there right now, motherboard-wise. And many follow standards: for example, all ATA devices look alike (some have extensions). All Firewire interfaces look alike, etc. Linux did this ages ago; it's not that big of a deal.

Naturally, you can't support every PC device on the planet. Be did it right -- "here are the devices we have drivers for; use them, or write your own".

-Dave

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