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xeron 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 19-Sep-2010 10:54:05
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2003
Posts: 2440
From: Weston-Super-Mare, Somerset, England, UK, Europe, Earth, The Milky Way, The Universe

@AmigaBlitter

Last edited by xeron on 19-Sep-2010 at 10:57 AM.
Last edited by xeron on 19-Sep-2010 at 10:54 AM.

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Amiga_3k 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 19-Sep-2010 11:41:04
#42 ]
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Joined: 17-Jun-2006
Posts: 830
From: Ohrid, Macedonia

@Amigablitter:

I doubt it if it really is any good to the players on the Amiga(ish) market. The people most likely to buy Amiga(ish) stuff are rather likely to have at least two different flavours on their desk. Quite a number are likely to have all flavours. Mixing it all up into one flavour means that the cash available will be spent at one location making it hard for all parties making (or trying to make) money right now to keep on making money.

Sure, a lot of money is spend in the different flavours but I guess combining it could well be making an end to all Amiga(ish) flavours around resulting in only less choice (Windows, OSX, Chrome, Linux...).

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ChrisH 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 19-Sep-2010 13:00:44
#43 ]
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Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@Leo Quote:
Impossible: way too much ego, stubborned, plus they went as far as insulting each other.

Not to mention people on both sides of the fence failing to bury the hatchet...

Quote:
But if they had any sense of reason and a little bit of businness knowledge I don't think we would have Hyperion working 5 years to re-invent the wheel (ie.: what MOS-Team did 4 years before), yes.

Well, it sucks that the MorphOS team were not prepared to accept the demands of Amiga Inc (and vice versa), while Hyperion were, but I trust you are blaming both MOS & Amiga Inc (and leaving Hyperion out of this). Most likely the MOS team thought they held all the cards, and so were probably rather surprised when Amiga Inc gave them the middle finger. But same thing happened elsewhere, for example: BeOS (Gassée) thought they held all the cards, and so asked a very high price from Apple, but Apple gave them the middle finger and (after some stumbling) went on to develop Mac OS X from scratch instead.

Last edited by ChrisH on 19-Sep-2010 at 01:04 PM.

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minator 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 19-Sep-2010 15:01:34
#44 ]
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Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

@ChrisH

Quote:
But same thing happened elsewhere, for example: BeOS (Gassée) thought they held all the cards, and so asked a very high price from Apple, but Apple gave them the middle finger and (after some stumbling) went on to develop Mac OS X from scratch instead.


Apple bought NeXT instead of Be, Next provided Openstep and it evolved into OS X.
One of the arguments that they went with Next rather than BeOS was Next was a lot more mature and had good development tools.
Next knew Apple well - next's CEO was Steve Jobs...

Quote:
Well, it sucks that the MorphOS team were not prepared to accept the demands of Amiga Inc (and vice versa), while Hyperion were, but I trust you are blaming both MOS & Amiga Inc (and leaving Hyperion out of this). Most likely the MOS team thought they held all the cards, and so were probably rather surprised when Amiga Inc gave them the middle finger.


It was the other way around, the MOS guys gave Amiga inc. the middle finger.
The story as I've heard it is that Amiga inc. made some demands of MOS that were rather unpalatable. They wanted complete control over the OS and also demanded they used standards that the MOS team deemed inferior.

It has long been thought that these demands were thought up not by Amiga inc, but by Hyperion.


I do wonder what would have happened if Amiga inc would have gone with MOS.
OS4 would never have existed so much of the infighting of the last 10 years would not have happened. The market wouldn't of shrinked so dramatically and Hyperion could of been quite happy doing games. It would have been win-win for everyone involved.

Last edited by minator on 19-Sep-2010 at 03:03 PM.
Last edited by minator on 19-Sep-2010 at 03:02 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 19-Sep-2010 16:36:51
#45 ]
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Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9369
From: Unknown

@minator

Quote:
I do wonder what would have happened if Amiga inc would have gone with MOS.


It was question of control. Amiga.Inc wanted full control over the OS - something that MorphOS Team couldn´t agree (logicaly). Thus Amiga.Inc asked Hyperion to make OS4...

It is ironic that Amiga.Inc now lost control over AmigaOS.

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itix 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 19-Sep-2010 17:34:00
#46 ]
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Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@pavlor

Quote:

It is ironic that Amiga.Inc now lost control over AmigaOS.


And everyone is showing a middle finger to Amiga Inc

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Kicko 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 19-Sep-2010 22:44:52
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2004
Posts: 5009
From: Sweden

Is that amigainc in the back and Milla (Alice) sent from Hyperion ?

Last edited by Kicko on 19-Sep-2010 at 10:57 PM.
Last edited by Kicko on 19-Sep-2010 at 10:53 PM.
Last edited by Kicko on 19-Sep-2010 at 10:46 PM.

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CodeSmith 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 20-Sep-2010 1:00:41
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@minator

Quote:

minator wrote:

It was the other way around, the MOS guys gave Amiga inc. the middle finger.
The story as I've heard it is that Amiga inc. made some demands of MOS that were rather unpalatable. They wanted complete control over the OS and also demanded they used standards that the MOS team deemed inferior.

It has long been thought that these demands were thought up not by Amiga inc, but by Hyperion.

You make it sound more nefarious than it probably was. If Amiga Inc asked Hyperion for advice on what a "good AmigaOS" should have, and the MOS team disagreed with those criteria, what you have is a difference of opinion that happens a lot in engineering because tradeoffs are very common, and people will often disagree on whether any given tradeoff is a win or a lose. You're suggesting that Hyperion somehow coerced Amiga Inc into taking their view, but it sounds to me more like either Hyperion sweetened the deal (eg by offering to do it cheaper) or the MOS team soured it (eg by refusing to compromise). I've seen this sort of thing happen dozens of times, it's just how things get done. The difference between Amiga/Hyperion/MOS and "the real world" is that the companies involved will not gleefully burn their bridges afterwards by repeatedly getting personal with other companies' leadership in public. You don't see Steve Ballmer calling out Sergey Brin on slashdot or even microsoft.com (the "kill Google" chair throwing tantrum was a private thing that was reported by someone else, not Ballmer making an angry post on a forum).

Quote:

I do wonder what would have happened if Amiga inc would have gone with MOS.
OS4 would never have existed so much of the infighting of the last 10 years would not have happened. The market wouldn't of shrinked so dramatically and Hyperion could of been quite happy doing games. It would have been win-win for everyone involved.

As much as I'd like to believe that, I really doubt it. The amiga community has always defined itself by what who it fights against - first we fought against Atari, Mac and PC, now we fight against x86 and each other's OS3 descendents. I bet if Hyperion had never been involved, it would have been a fight between MOS and AROS (the use of x86 by AROS making them particularly hated). The people involved might have been different, but I expect the end result to be about the same.

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Fab 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 20-Sep-2010 1:57:08
#49 ]
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Joined: 17-Mar-2004
Posts: 1178
From: Unknown

@CodeSmith

I think you couldn't have picked a worse example than Steve Ballmer to prove your point.

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redfox 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 20-Sep-2010 4:11:41
#50 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1947
From: Canada

@AmigaBlitter

Oh ... this thread was started in January 2006.

bye,
redfox

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CodeSmith 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 20-Sep-2010 7:34:29
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@Fab

Why? Ballmer does a lot of smack talk, but it's always about competing companies or their products (if you're not from America, you may not realize that sort of thing is normal - see eg Ford vs Chevy and Mac vs PC ads). I don't think I've ever heard of him badmouthing any specific people, which is what Bill Buck, Ben Hermans and Bill McEwen were doing pretty frequently at the height of the madness. OK, another example then: Paul Otellini, CEO of Intel. I'd be very surprised if you could find any statement by him that put down AMD's Hector Ruiz (he probably had a few choice things to say about AMD or their chips, but I very much doubt he ever got personal). A third example: Steve Jobs, the most passionate CEO I know of. When he was venting recently after getting backstabbed by Google, all he said was that their "Don't be evil" mantra is BS. Not once did he insult Eric Schmidt. If that sort of thing had happened on our little corner of the industry the two CEOs would have been going at each other here and at the other forums, getting egged on by the assorted trolls and making us all look like idiots in the process.

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agami 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 20-Sep-2010 8:21:50
#52 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 962
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Seehund

Spot on.
I was going to write pretty much the same thing.

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agami 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 20-Sep-2010 8:36:26
#53 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 962
From: Melbourne, Australia

@minator

Quote:
Apple bought NeXT instead of Be


Actually, after rejecting Be, Apple first tried to develop a modern OS in-house. It was after failing to make anything decent in a respectable amount of time that they dropped the project and turned to Jobs and Next.

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ChrisH 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 20-Sep-2010 9:13:43
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@CodeSmith Quote:
You make it sound more nefarious than it probably was. If Amiga Inc asked Hyperion for advice on what a "good AmigaOS" should have

Do we even know that Amiga Inc was talking to Hyperion when they started negotations for MorphOS? I don't think they had any prior public dealings with Hyperion (?), so seems wildly speculative to me.

@agami Quote:
Actually, after rejecting Be, Apple first tried to develop a modern OS in-house. It was after failing to make anything decent in a respectable amount of time that they dropped the project and turned to Jobs and Next.

So my characterisation that Be was asking too much from Apple could have been right! (I certainly remember reading that somewhere.)

Last edited by ChrisH on 20-Sep-2010 at 09:14 AM.

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agami 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 20-Sep-2010 13:26:23
#55 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 962
From: Melbourne, Australia

@ChrisH

Quote:
So my characterisation that Be was asking too much from Apple could have been right!


You were right on the money about that one. It sucks what happened with Be Inc. Gassée had the right idea, but being ex-Apple he knew how bad things were back there and naturally he thought he had the upper hand. It wasn't just about the money, his ego clashed with Amelio's. Instead of buying Be for $200M Amilio pays $429M for NeXT in '97, go figure.

I would have preferred BeOS winning. It was the first truly new OS in over a decade and had many cool things. It certainly would have been a smart thing for Escom or Gateway to have bought it for a NG Amiga. Who knows, they may have tried. Not all negotiations are publicised.

Last edited by agami on 21-Sep-2010 at 12:32 AM.

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minator 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 20-Sep-2010 16:22:55
#56 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

@agami

Quote:
Actually, after rejecting Be, Apple first tried to develop a modern OS in-house. It was after failing to make anything decent in a respectable amount of time that they dropped the project and turned to Jobs and Next.


It's the other way around. Apple had been trying and failing to produce a next gen OS since 1987 - look up Pink, Taligent and Copeland if you don't believe me. They gave up in the end and bought NeXT.

Obviously they did look at BeOS and indeed it was a very nice system (it was my main desktop for 5 years) but decided to go for NeXT instead. The exact reason is speculation but yes, I've heard Be had asked way too much for it.

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minator 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 20-Sep-2010 16:33:55
#57 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

@CodeSmith

Quote:
You make it sound more nefarious than it probably was.


Possibly, but that's what I've heard.

Quote:
You're suggesting that Hyperion somehow coerced Amiga Inc into taking their view


I am *not* suggesting that.


Amiga inc. made various demands, some were about control. Some were about the use of specific technologies.

I don't remember the details but I believe one of the issues was about what graphics standard to use.


Quote:
The difference between Amiga/Hyperion/MOS and "the real world" is that the companies involved will not gleefully burn their bridges afterwards by repeatedly getting personal with other companies' leadership in public.


Yes, another big difference in "the real world" is that big companies who appear to be worst enemies will often quite happily do business with each other.

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itix 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 20-Sep-2010 17:45:15
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@CodeSmith

Quote:

The amiga community has always defined itself by what who it fights against - first we fought against Atari, Mac and PC, now we fight against x86 and each other's OS3 descendents.


"We"? Dont you mean you and only you?

Quote:

I bet if Hyperion had never been involved, it would have been a fight between MOS and AROS (the use of x86 by AROS making them particularly hated)


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Hisoka999 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 20-Sep-2010 17:48:41
#59 ]
Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2009
Posts: 82
From: Germany

@minator

Quote:
Obviously they did look at BeOS and indeed it was a very nice system (it was my main desktop for 5 years) but decided to go for NeXT instead. The exact reason is speculation but yes, I've heard Be had asked way too much for it.

Yes and no. They paid more money for NeXT, the last number i heard was 460M$. But it is rather simple why they choose NextStep/OpenStep.
1. There are a lot unix devs out there, so you have a lot potential developers. BeOS had nearly no devs and so no one had knowledge of the new apis
2. Step had some productive software at its time. (webbrowser,office,...), BeOS had no office until 97 and the web part was horrible. The network stack was not usable and the browser nearly not existent
3. It was a lot mature, BeOS was more a tech demo in the nineties
4. that was the time of the internet boom and so they had the idea of selling mac os as a server operating system(and as we know they do it)

The worst desicion of Be Inc was to integrate no compatibility. So it is hard to port new software to such a system and as we can see in the amiga market, if the market is small you won't find a dev that develops software with the native api.

If you want to know more about it: http://www.lowendmac.com/myturn/02/0403.html

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itix 
Re: It's time to join the forces
Posted on 20-Sep-2010 17:53:20
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@ChrisH

Quote:

Do we even know that Amiga Inc was talking to Hyperion when they started negotations for MorphOS? I don't think they had any prior public dealings with Hyperion (?), so seems wildly speculative to me.


I dont know but Hyperion had dealings with Amiga Inc via AmigaAnywhere (porting games and Warp3D to AA I recall). Ben Hermans was a legal advisor to Amiga Inc. and knew closely about Amiga Inc/MorphOS negotiations. But it doesnt necessarily mean anything and outcome was the best possible, IMO.

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