@elatour

Hmmm..do you think we can reach 400 posts on this topic?

@stone

Quote:

...most end-user dont even know what they want. and they especially dont know the consekvenses of their mindless requests.

If you ever start or already own a business with any kind of sales or services to clients, this should be your mission statement! Heck, add it to your business cards and under your logo while you're at it. It would be sure to draw alot of new and repeat business from potential/exisiting clients! Perhaps it should be Amiga Inc.'s, Eyetech's and Hyperion's too! People underestimate a client's LOVE for being belittled, ignored and insulted!

Last edited by elatour on 09-Jun-2006 at 05:20 PM.
Last edited by elatour on 09-Jun-2006 at 05:19 PM.

_________________
When swimming with sharks, make sure to bring lots of band-aids...

@elatour

Excellent, keep it going

@Helgis

Quote:

Hmmm..do you think we can reach 400 posts on this topic?

That's not my goal, but I've always liked a good debate/discussion!

_________________
When swimming with sharks, make sure to bring lots of band-aids...

@elatour

Yes, that's true

I want AmigaOS on x86 toilets A PC formed like a toilet How's that for creativity? And if getting tired of it, we just dump junk in it and flush it

Before we do, we must remove AmigaOS4 from the toilets' harddrive

@Thread

Guys, just drop it. Hyperion are not choosing the PPC CPU because they want to prevent piracy or because because they for some other reason would want to prevent the AmigaOS from running on cheap mainstream hardware. What you are forgetting is that the desktop market isn't their primary targetted market segment, their long term business plan is the embedded market. There are mainly two reasons for this:

a) AmigaOS4 simply cannot compete with anything in the desktop market, a decade of lost development will do that to an OS. While we try to catch up, the rest of the industry is hardly standing still.

b) The hobbyists that would be potential consumers of AmigaOS4, all hardware platforms combined, is not enough to sustain a business in the long run. Remember, we need quite some profits to invest in the AmigaOS development to make up for the lost years.

So, from Hyperion's POV and from a business perspective, even if going PPC might not be the optimal solution for AmigaOS as a desktop OS, it is the only viable choice if they want to compete in the embedded market. With their limited resources, they can't develop for multiple CPU architectures and various chipsets at the same time (they don't even have the resources to complete the CPPC/BPPC version right now) but maybe once they have accomplished their current undertakings and when they start to get a return on those investments, maybe then they can start exploring other possibilities.

However, by that time, maybe the x86 has been entirely been replaced by some other new revolutionizing CPU architecture, who knows? The best thing to do is probably to not close any doors and keep a close watch on development in the mainstream hardware market. Judging by Hyperions suggestion on the official AmigaOS4 website where hardware providers are encouraged to contact Hyperion even if their hardware uses a different CPU architecture than the PPC, it seems to be exactly what Hyperion are currently doing.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

There are many speculations to this. We might never know.

@elatour

In #212 you wrote:
Quote:

But I though the ones used by Apple for its iPods were made by PortalPlayer, which according to something I read (http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=186701236) recently will be switched to Samsung. Intel may be manufacturing ARM chips, but not for Apple's iPods

Which is was what I was referring to. Sorry for not quoting you on that in my previous post.
My intention was simply to inform you that ARM processors are in use in some iPod models.

Didn't have the time to read the whole article then, but as you pointed out it has some relevance.
I'm note sure if I agree his first comment being flawed though. It's not unlikely Intel had other plans for it's Xscale when the Apple deal was done last year.

That said, I don't think it was the iPod business which caused it anyway.

w

@samface

Quote:

What you are forgetting is that the desktop market isn't their primary targetted market segment, their long term business plan is the embedded market

No, believe me, we haven't forgetten it. I think most people participating in this thread are aware of Hyperion's desire to focus on the embedded markets. It's this embedded-only approach along with their fixation on the "x86 is evil" bandwaggon that keeps the discussion alive because the PPC desktop has a very short lifespan ahead of it, and as 99% of us are desktop users, we're not too happy about seing it dissappear.

Quote:

...but maybe once they have accomplished their current undertakings and when they start to get a return on those investments, maybe then they can start exploring other possibilities.

I'd love to hear them say that! But that's just it. They have said they would NEVER consider it because they hate x86 and won't code for it. I'd love to be proven wrong on this, but what's most likely to happen is that they will not succeed in any meaningful way in the embedded market, afterwhich they will be broke and either just walk away from it all or sell some of the IP to someone else, and meanwhile, the PPC desktop will have died, so in essence, no more Amiga.

Quote:

The best thing to do is probably to not close any doors and keep a close watch on development in the mainstream hardware market.

This line of thinking from Hyperion would be a breath of fresh air, however, it is not a possibility regarding x86 according to them...it's just too evil to ever be considered.

This is not what I would consider keeping an open mind about it, or "not close any doors" as you put it.

Last edited by elatour on 09-Jun-2006 at 06:22 PM.

_________________
When swimming with sharks, make sure to bring lots of band-aids...

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: a) AmigaOS4 simply cannot compete with anything in the desktop market, a decade of lost development will do that to an OS. While we try to catch up, the rest of the industry is hardly standing still.

Neither is the embedded industry.

Quote:

b) The hobbyists that would be potential consumers of AmigaOS4, all hardware platforms combined, is not enough to sustain a business in the long run. Remember, we need quite some profits to invest in the AmigaOS development to make up for the lost years.

What are the "hobbyist" desktop sales vs. the embedded sales so far?

Hell, I think the hobbyist market, as small as it is, is a safer bet than the embedded market. I can't even think of a real-life example of someone we could try to convince that they need OS4 embedded, can you?

I'd rather see OS4 at least keep those of us still hanging around AmigaOS websites happy, than sit on a shelf like Umilator, waiting for things to change, if they ever do.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@T_Bone

Quote:

What are the "hobbyist" desktop sales vs. the embedded sales so far?

Not to mention that being able to use this OS on easily available commodity hardware or through VirtualPC/VMware would increase the likelihood of an increase in users, both exisiting classic Amiga AND ex-Amiga users AND developers. I have come accross so many ex-Amigans than would love to once again use and develop for for the a new Amiga OS, but they simply won't pay serious $$$'s for the priviledge of "trying" a new OS out and end up with hardware they can't use elsewhere. An x86 option might not make Hyperion and Amiga Inc. millions, but it will help bank roll their embedded plans where the millions MIGHT come from...with major emphasis on MIGHT!

IMHO, providing a free or very low cost version of the OS for x86 would also help people out considering this OS for its viablity for embedded markets be able to take it for an initial test run with regards to the interface possibilities, memory footprint, available software, system APIs, development tools, etc. This encourages hobbyist developers to add to the emebedded AND desktop software base, which helps everyone. It also provides a form of marketting, meaning more possibility for reviews by more mainstream media.

I just don't get Hyperion's insistance on NOT considering x86 EVER, not even as a possible cross development platform for embedded devices.

_________________
When swimming with sharks, make sure to bring lots of band-aids...

@Helgis

Quote:

Helgis wrote: @elatour Hmmm..do you think we can reach 400 posts on this topic?

Quote:

@elatour Excellent, keep it going

Stop spamming NOW or go away...again.

Last edited by wegster on 09-Jun-2006 at 08:48 PM.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@AMiGR

Quote:

And to initialize the cards to a known (documented) state.

And if you don't need to see menu settings in UBOOT, then you don't need uboot to do that. Forefront's Radeon driver is quite capable of doing this same thing by itself, without any help. Voodoo cards can be used on classic+PCI bridge machines, so it doesn't need any help. We're told that the x86 emulation is only used for this initialization in the case of graphics cards. Not for IDE, not for USB, not for sound, etc. Only for graphics.

If you set up a system like Macintosh where users very rarely if ever have reason to look into the BIOS stuff, remove our reasons for going into UBOOT settings, then this x86 emilation inside UBOOT could be removed, and OS4 would still run just as well and show exactly the same graphics on screen as when the x86 emulation is used. This applies for any graphics card that can be used in classic+PCI Amigas, because for those cards the initialization settings are already known, or the process to scan graphics frirmware for data talling us this, is already known and can be done directly in the driver instead of in UBOOT's x86 emulation.

If one does not need to fiddle in BIOS settings, then one does not nee to know or care if this initialization is done by x86 emulation or directly by graphics driver. Once the OS is running, it doesn't matter either way.

_________________
All glory to the Hypnotoad!

@elatour

Quote:

I have come accross so many ex-Amigans than would love to once again use and develop for for the a new Amiga OS, but they simply won't pay serious $$$'s for the priviledge of "trying" a new OS out and end up with hardware they can't use elsewhere.

Why don't you tell your development friends about AROS, open source OS running on available hardware for free!

w

Quote:

wegster wrote: @Atheist Quote: There's way too many trolls posting on AmigaWorld.Net these days. First and only warning being given. The last several posts of your have been nothing but baiting, useless comments, against the TOS. Stop now or go away.

Why are you always siding with/defending the trolls wegster?

As for going away, yes I would/will, but a new messageboard IS needed, one where the words "pegasos" and "bbrv" can only be used at most, 5 times a month, and no one can have that crap in their "From:" or signatures either.

And no one can have a nick based on them either.


I'm sick of the sleights that have been posted in people's sigs and and From:'s, and openly hostile stands against the Amiga companies and personalities that are now allowed here.


This place has become a big fat joke.

@Atheist

Quote:

Why are you always siding with/defending the trolls wegster?

I can only assume you're not reading or aware of all Moderation or PMs and ARs done by me, because that statement is false.

Were I always 'defending the trolls,' I would indeed be defending you, instead of constantly warning you about baiting and trolling. It's laughable how you refuse to see yourself as a troll, while even the 'strongest reds' and blues both certainly do.


Quote:

As for going away, yes I would/will, but a new messageboard IS needed, one where the words "pegasos" and "bbrv" can only be used at most, 5 times a month, and no one can have that crap in their "From:" or signatures either.

Heheh, that would be amusing to see.
Post response after hitting button.
"I'm sorry, Pegasos has already been mentioned 5 times this month. Your avatar has now been changed to 'Troll,' and a ban has automatically been put into place. Furthermore, if you fail to agree with everything Atheist says, you will be permanently banned."

yeah...nice place there

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@mr_white

Quote:

Why don't you tell your development friends about AROS, open source OS running on available hardware for free!

It's just not there yet.

_________________
When swimming with sharks, make sure to bring lots of band-aids...

@elatour

Quote:

It's just not there yet.

As opposed to AOS4x86 being ready to launch any moment now...

Your acquaintances, as developers enthusiastic about Amiga, I'm sure the AROS community would welcome them to join in and contribute bringing AROS forward.

w

@mr_white

I'm about to sponsor my first bounty, if I can decide what to sponsor.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@billt

Actually, you cannot use PC graphic cards on Macs without flashing them with an OpenFirmware compatible BIOS, because of the lack of x86 emulator. Sure, you can init it yourself if you have **good** documentation but sometimes you bump on problems you shouldn't bump on if skipping the BIOS init. I remember a few issues being discussed some years ago, but I can't remember exact details.

_________________