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DAX 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 14:53:33
#81 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@saimo
Quote:
You're thinking of double-clicking floppy icons on the WB and getting the software stored on them to run, right? In that case, all Hyperion would need to do is allowing to specify a default tool also for volumes (indeed, this is a request I wanted to make a long time ago for drawers, but then I found that changing the drawer icon type to "project" does the trick, so I never asked for that). A very little thing. The rest can be easily handled by glUAE (or your preferred layer of choice) and UAE.

Yeah, something like that, I would have it this way:

A)Real Floppy Games: just insert the floppy and double click it's icon to launch the preferred tool (glUAE, RunInUAE etc.) if the latter perform some sort of analysys to automatically select an appropriate configuation, all the better.

B)OS 3.x professional apps on real floppies that do run great on Petunia: insert the floppy, double click its icon while holding down Right-Amiga key and install as usual.

C)OS 3.x App on real floppies that need to be started/installed from a 3.x emulated environment: such environment should be provided by Hyperion now that they can do with os 3.1 whatever they please. You should be able to click an icon on the Dock to launch such environment (Amiga Forever style) and proceed as usual. Such environment should have access to all installed peripherals such as DVD-drive, Network, Floppy etc. (like in Amiga Forever).

D)Amiga software on ADF or WHDLoad: ok we already have this

P.S.
By the way, I heard that the X-Core could act as an Amiga Floppy controller, if that turns out to be true no need to buy an expensive catweasel either...

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saimo 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 15:04:25
#82 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2450
From: Unknown

@DAX

Quote:
A)Real Floppy Games: just insert the floppy and double click it's icon to launch the preferred tool (glUAE, RunInUAE etc.) if the latter perform some sort of analysys to automatically select an appropriate configuation, all the better.

OK, exactly what I was suggesting.

Quote:
B)OS 3.x professional apps on real floppies that do run great on Petunia: insert the floppy, double click its icon while holding down Right-Amiga key and install as usual.

This already works and needs no layer or emulator

Quote:
C)OS 3.x App on real floppies that need to be started/installed from a 3.x emulated environment: such environment should be provided by Hyperion now that they can do with os 3.1 whatever they please. You should be able to click an icon on the Dock to launch such environment (Amiga Forever style) and proceed as usual. Such environment should have access to all installed peripherals such as DVD-drive, Network, Floppy etc. (like in Amiga Forever).

This is exactly the "centralized system" concept of UAE, with the different that the OS is provided by Hyperion - in short, there's no specific work to be done by Hyperion.

Quote:
By the way, I heard that the X-Core could act as an Amiga Floppy controller, if that turns out to be true no need to buy an expensive catweasel either...

OK, I understand that you enjoy the thought of running the software directly from old floppies and that potential customers would as well, but, let me ask: how many floppies are still working? Why not just being happy with ADFs and IPFs?

Last edited by saimo on 19-Jan-2010 at 03:07 PM.
Last edited by saimo on 19-Jan-2010 at 03:06 PM.

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DAX 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 15:18:44
#83 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@saimo
Point B above was mentioned to differentiate between a simple double click (which should run the app) and a double click with Right-Amiga while you hold Right-Amiga down, which should open the window to inspect its contents or install the software as usual (instead of launching the de assigned tool).

Anyway, to answer your question:

1)We seem to agree that Hyperion doesn't have to do much here aside from adding a couple of tiny things. Why you insist on them waisting time and money then?

2)Original Floppies kept in dry places work like a charm and there are a lot of collectors buying original games off ebay (yes original Amiga games are treated as Saturn or Playstation games nowadays, besides people play roms on emulators too, but there is another bunch that consider the "real thing" as more satisfying).

Last edited by DAX on 19-Jan-2010 at 03:20 PM.

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vidarh 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 15:29:03
#84 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@ChrisH

Quote:
I mean that it would be nice that when I double-click on a 68k app, OS4 *could* run that inside E-UAE, instead of using Petunia.

RunInUAE can already *almost* do that, but it lacks the ability for to intercept Workbench running an executable. Only thanks to a trick is it able to intercept Workbench for WHDLoad & JOTD JST games (and ADFs).


Linux has a very simple mechanism for this kind of thing that is severely underutilized: A kernel module called "binfmt_misc" that lets you provide a config file that takes a "magic" signature for a specific format, and triggers a specified command instead of the default binary loader when you try to execute that file.

In addition, most Linux filemanagers supports something like using "file" (Unix/Linux utility to determine the type of a file) to find the filetype and a configurable list of mappings from filetype to the default program to open the file with. This feels like a hack, since it doesn't work system wide, just in the file manager.

It ought to be simple for Hyperion to add a similar mechanism to AmigaOS (either would do; there's no point having both), or they could take the more Amiga-ish way (but possibly a bit more work) and increase consistency by making Datatypes the default mechanism for handling executables too, with the current executable loader as the fallback.

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saimo 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 15:34:41
#85 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2450
From: Unknown

@DAX

Quote:

Point B above was mentioned to differentiate between a simple double click (which should run the app) and a double click with Right-Amiga while you hold Right-Amiga down, which should open the window to inspect its contents or install the software as usual (instead of launching the de assigned tool).

Unless you're thinking of performing a boot from floppy, I don't understand what you mean: if you inserted a DOS-formatted floppy in your classic Amiga, you could click the disk icon to inspect the contents, and the same happens now.
If simulating a boot from floppy is what you mean by "running the app", yes, a qualifier key could do the job - in that case, I'd rather generalize the mechanism and have also an alternate default tool for any icon.

Quote:
1)We seem to agree that Hyperion doesn't have to do much here aside from adding a couple of tiny things. Why you insist on them waisting time and money then?

It looks like you were answering while I was editing my original reply (I removed precisely some thoughts about the amount of work needed).

Quote:
2)Original Floppies kept in dry places work like a charm and there are a lot of collectors buying original games off ebay (yes original Amiga games are treated as Saturn or Playstation games nowadays, besides people play roms on emulators too, but there is another bunch that consider the "real thing" as more satisfying).

I know. But most of the collectors just collect, don't play. And those who want "the real thing" wouldn't use OS4 either
I still think that direct launching from floppy isn't worth the effort by anybody.

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saimo 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 15:46:02
#86 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2450
From: Unknown

@vidarh

Quote:
It ought to be simple for Hyperion to add a similar mechanism to AmigaOS (either would do; there's no point having both),

I'm sorry if it sounds boring, but I have to repeat that asking Hyperion to do more work and make the system more complex just to save the user the work of specifying a default tool doesn't sound right to me.

Quote:
or they could take the more Amiga-ish way (but possibly a bit more work) and increase consistency by making Datatypes the default mechanism for handling executables too, with the current executable loader as the fallback.

This is an interesting idea, but it should be justified by more than just launching old applications - i.e. it would be useful in a system that is capable of running many kinds of binaries (say, native, old native, Flash, Java, ...).
However, please note that the very same thing is already possible thanks to DefIcons and the $VIEWER variable (which can do miracles is properly used). F.ex., I set it to WBRun, so that when I type the path of a file in the shell, the file is opened by the proper tool according to my DefIcons settings (provided that the file doesn't have the 'e' bit set, of course).

Last edited by saimo on 19-Jan-2010 at 04:27 PM.

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DAX 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 15:48:43
#87 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@saimo
Quote:
running the app", yes, a qualifier key could do the job - in that case, I'd rather generalize the mechanism and have also an alternate default tool for any icon.

That's what I meant, having a qualifier key would avoid to swtch the default behaviour back and forth all the time.

Quote:
I know. But most of the collectors just collect, don't play. And those who want "the real thing" wouldn't use OS4 either
I still think that direct launching from floppy isn't worth the effort by anybody.

That was until the AmigaOne X1000 though, remember that the latter it's not a generic mobo to just run as many OS s as possible, but a real Amiga Computer (as "real thing" as it gets).

What I'm suggesting is that adding the possibility of easily run legacy software out of the box will "evoke" in many users a greater sense of authenticity, and might prompt them to get back to modern Amiga computing knowing they won't miss out on classic action either.

My A2000 is sitting right below the Sam, but to switch it on, I need to position its mouse, its bulky keyboard and disconnect one of the two systems i have connected to my monitor (PC and SAM).
Bottom line, I never do it! I f I had a single Amiga System for all my Amiga needs I would be very happy (I am anyway, but alas...).

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saimo 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 16:00:26
#88 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2450
From: Unknown

@DAX
Quote:
That was until the AmigaOne X1000 though, remember that the latter it's not a generic mobo to just run as many OS s as possible, but a real Amiga Computer (as "real thing" as it gets).

But still it wouldn't be the "real thing" for that sort people you're talking about. The "real thing" would be inserting the floppy, resetting the machine and having the application running - and this does require more work. (And, by the way, I bet it wouldn't be the real thing to some anyway because monitors are not 1084S, joypads aren't joysticks, the case is different, and so on).

Quote:
What I'm suggesting is that adding the possibility of easily run legacy software out of the box will "evoke" in many users a greater sense of authenticity, and might prompt them to get back to modern Amiga computing knowing they won't miss out on classic action either.

Sure, I agree that the general thought of being able to run the old stuff is attractive. But how many of the former Amiga users would you expect to come back, buy a Catweasel and launch their old stuff from there when, instead, they could less expensively and more comfortably run ADFs?
Just to be clear: I don't dispute that it wouldn't be nice to have the features you're suggesting, just that they're not important enough to justify the effort they require.

Last edited by saimo on 19-Jan-2010 at 04:00 PM.

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sananaman 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 16:07:19
#89 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Sep-2006
Posts: 260
From: Netherlands

@saimo

That's great. I've tried to integrate Amos but I still got crashes. I haven't figured out what is wrong, but I know it cost me some time to debug with snoopdos.

I think I got stuck here...
3. put in the directory also the minimal set of system files/directories (C, Libs, etc.) required to run the interpreter (f.ex., my rather tweaked setup requires this tree);

Do you have a minimal of files ready as downloadable package?
That would be helpful.

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vidarh 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 16:21:25
#90 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@saimo

Quote:
However, please note that the very same thing is already possible thanks to DefIcons and the $VIEWER variable (which can do miracles is properly used). F.ex., I set it to WBRun, so that when I type the path a file in the shell, the file is opened by the proper tool according to my DefIcons settings (provided that the file doesn't have the 'e' bit set, of course).


That's almost all the way there - it'd be easy enough to implement a "viewer" to check for whatever you want to check for (format, or even check a hash of the file itself against a database of "known" ettings, or whatever mechanism), and it can be done without Hyperions help. I must admit I'd completely forgotten about Deficons.

It occurs to me (correct me if I'm wrong - I'm just returning to play with AmigaOS after a 12 year break ...): Doesn't Deficons support using datatype descriptors to determine the type already? In which case you don't even need to implement that logic - just write the appropriate descriptors.

If so, really, the only change that'd be nice to have in the OS itself would be to support checking those datatype descriptors when the 'e' bit is set too in order to be able to handle classic executables that way without relying on the user to unset the 'e' bit.

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DAX 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 16:24:19
#91 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@saimo
Users could get a cheap floppy disk drive pre-installed directly from the shop (ie:Amigakit etc.) and buy no catweasel at all (the seller will install appropriate Xmos software ).
Moreover I talk about active classic users (there are many here at AW but if you check german sites you'll find a ton there!) more than generic computer users that used to have an amiga back in the day.

But in anycase I believe we agree on the following:

If it's too much effort for Hyperion than no point in doing this.

If not, the more attractive the X1000 becomes, the better for them no?

La speranza è l'ultima a morire!!

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saimo 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 16:28:10
#92 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2450
From: Unknown

@sananaman

Sorry, I didn't see this post earlier. See my PM.

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vidarh 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 16:31:24
#93 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@saimo

Quote:
Sure, I agree that the general thought of being able to run the old stuff is attractive. But how many of the former Amiga users would you expect to come back, buy a Catweasel and launch their old stuff from there when, instead, they could less expensively and more comfortably run ADFs?
Just to be clear: I don't dispute that it wouldn't be nice to have the features you're suggesting, just that they're not important enough to justify the effort they require.


As a returning ex-Amiga user, I agree with your sentiment that they're not important enough by themselves to burden Hyperion with vs. getting more important features - part of the appeal for me in looking at AmigaOS again is nostalgia, but part of it also that it seems to be getting "close enough" for me for other things, and I'd like to see that momentum continue.

BUT, anything that makes it extremely easy makes it more likely that those of us who are not hardcore about wanting the "classic" experience will still be drawn by old apps/games/demos and take another look at the platform, *AND* I think we've established that he changes required to make it possible to make this 100% transparent for the end user are very small (see my other reply to you) and that most of it can be done by users.

Furthermore, it'd be useful for other things too: Other emulators could be integrated; new binary formats could be added just by dropping in a datatype, allowing experimentation (imagine adding support for linux-ppc binaries, for example - the Linux syscall interface is "small", though that would likely involve some MMU hacking).

As you pointed out, deficons get you 99% there anyway - the remaining tiny step that can't be contributed by users isn't even strictly needed, but just a matter of - for consistency - treat files with 'e' set the same way.

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saimo 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 16:36:56
#94 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2450
From: Unknown

@vidarh

Quote:

That's almost all the way there - it'd be easy enough to implement a "viewer" to check for whatever you want to check for (format, or even check a hash of the file itself against a database of "known" ettings, or whatever mechanism), and it can be done without Hyperions help. I must admit I'd completely forgotten about Deficons.

DefIcons does exactly what you say: it determines the type of a file according to user-defineable tests.

Quote:
It occurs to me (correct me if I'm wrong - I'm just returning to play with AmigaOS after a 12 year break ...): Doesn't Deficons support using datatype descriptors to determine the type already? In which case you don't even need to implement that logic - just write the appropriate descriptors.

No, it doesn't use datatypes descriptors. But it comes with a large database of pre-defined comparison tests (even too large for my tastes: I only need a few file types - and when a type is not recognized, I use DefIcons to run a custom script that asks what to do with the file, besides whether to unpack, hex-edit or save it).

Last edited by saimo on 19-Jan-2010 at 04:56 PM.
Last edited by saimo on 19-Jan-2010 at 04:39 PM.
Last edited by saimo on 19-Jan-2010 at 04:38 PM.

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vidarh 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 16:42:41
#95 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@saimo

Quote:
Using datatypes is not necessary and the system already allows automated invoking of the proper application


Even when 'e' is set? If so, then doesn't that mean everything that's been talked about here is really 100% achievable without OS level changes? Or have I missed something?

I.e. you'd use a script for "classic" binaries that'd fall back to using Petunia if the binary doesn't meet a specific set of criteria (i.e. it could consult a database of fingerprints of "known" bad games/demos etc. and call UAE if one is found, or it could display a requester and let the user decide, or it could just give an error, or whatever).

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saimo 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 16:55:59
#96 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2450
From: Unknown

@vidarh

I don't have the time to answer your previous post, but this is quick and easy...

Quote:
Even when 'e' is set? If so, then doesn't that mean everything that's been talked about here is really 100% achievable without OS level changes? Or have I missed something?

Yes and no. Yes if the file is opened from icon (in that case, the default tool is invoked). No if the file is opened from shell by simply typing its full path (in that case, you get a "file is not executable" error).

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ddni 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 17:50:10
#97 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2007
Posts: 818
From: Northern Ireland

@saimo

I cant believe that users actually WANT to use Decaying Rotten old Amiga floppy disks!

If people desperately want to experience Floppy pain on their NG Amigas, then they should PC Format a HD floppy, copy a couple of ADFs to it and run them through UAE....

It will be SLOW, UNRELIABLE and NASTY just like real floppies always were... Nostalgia is like looking back with Rose tinted spectacles.

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saimo 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 18:45:33
#98 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2450
From: Unknown

@DAX

Quote:

Users could get a cheap floppy disk drive pre-installed directly from the shop (ie:Amigakit etc.) and buy no catweasel at all (the seller will install appropriate Xmos software ).
Moreover I talk about active classic users (there are many here at AW but if you check german sites you'll find a ton there!) more than generic computer users that used to have an amiga back in the day.

I can simply change my question to: how many of the former Amiga users would you expect to come back, buy a floppy and launch their old stuff from there when, instead, they could less expensively and more comfortably run ADFs? And let me add: even for those who do that, how long do you believe the fun would last?

Quote:

But in anycase I believe we agree on the following:

If it's too much effort for Hyperion than no point in doing this.

If not, the more attractive the X1000 becomes, the better for them no?

La speranza è l'ultima a morire!!

I don't mean to bash your hopes, but I really think that Hyperion should not move a single finger to allow the run-from-floppy thingie because it's too irrelevant. If they, instead, spend some time to implement the alternate default tool thing, then I'd be more than happy because that would have a much greater importance as regards system flexibility in general.

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saimo 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 19:00:22
#99 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2450
From: Unknown

@vidarh

Quote:

BUT, anything that makes it extremely easy makes it more likely that those of us who are not hardcore about wanting the "classic" experience will still be drawn by old apps/games/demos and take another look at the platform, *AND* I think we've established that he changes required to make it possible to make this 100% transparent for the end user are very small (see my other reply to you) and that most of it can be done by users.

The point is, how I tried to explain earlier, that making is 100% transparent is intrinsically impossible. Sooner or later the user will be faced with the need to configure the emulation manually. And, even in the cases when he isn't, the performance could not be optimal.
Tools like glUAE help a lot in achieving a transparent integration, but configuration must be done at some point - I must say that by reading these last posts, I'm almost tempted to establish a new full-time job for myself: creating configurations (optionally on demand) so that users can just click on their favourite application and let AOS4 + glUAE + UAE take care of the rest... anybody willing to pay for that (you know, I'm jobless)?

Quote:
Furthermore, it'd be useful for other things too: Other emulators could be integrated; new binary formats could be added just by dropping in a datatype, allowing experimentation (imagine adding support for linux-ppc binaries, for example - the Linux syscall interface is "small", though that would likely involve some MMU hacking).

I'd personally avoid passing through datatypes, but rather rely on DefIcons - but the best solution (which you indirectly suggested) would be that DefIcons used datatypes to identify file types (I don't know if this would require extending the datatypes) and that it was more integrated in the system (currently it's just an optional commodity).

Quote:
As you pointed out, deficons get you 99% there anyway - the remaining tiny step that can't be contributed by users isn't even strictly needed, but just a matter of - for consistency - treat files with 'e' set the same way.

At that point the 'e' bit would become quite useless... but I personally wouldn't have any problem with that

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saimo 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 19:13:04
#100 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2450
From: Unknown

@ddni

Quote:
I cant believe that users actually WANT to use Decaying Rotten old Amiga floppy disks!

If people desperately want to experience Floppy pain on their NG Amigas, then they should PC Format a HD floppy, copy a couple of ADFs to it and run them through UAE....

It will be SLOW, UNRELIABLE and NASTY just like real floppies always were... Nostalgia is like looking back with Rose tinted spectacles.

I'm not surprised at all and I do respect other people's preferences and wishes.
But I wouldn't believe for a second that this thing of running old software from floppies can be such a selling point to justify any effort from the OS developers.

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RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

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