@billt

Presumably,


"every" = every

@Darth_X

Quote:

Brewhaha's will happen as long as there is lots of beer!

I declare that from now on, "brewhaha" shall be forver abbreviated with:

@yoodoo2

Quote:

Everyone knows I want to be a benevolent dictator.

At one of the convention dinners (I think the final Gateway one.) McEwen said that Amiga was a benevolent dictatorship. So, I guess he's got your job already.

@Wayne what you say makes sense.

I would also add in Hyperion's defence and without contradicting what you have stated, that the one predicatable aspect of this lies in how good OS4 has become.

I will put it this way, an agreement is signed for a more or less straight port to PPC of AmigaOS, with some much needed updates and improvements. Ie a minimalist contract.

However, OS4 becomes much more improved.

Now Amiga Inc wants what it signed for, but Hyperion thinks it has more than was ever contacted, the latter party wants more for what it has.

This may be simplistic and is entirely without proof, but look at OS4 now - this is no simple port it is a wonderful and new OS, miles ahead of the previous generation in nearly every respect.

As I keep saying, cash flow solves a lot of problems. If OS4 can get released, if both parties put the legal side on hold and put a portion of contensious earnings in trust for a little while. And if OS4 really sells (PS3 - I keep repeating!!!), then the cash cow grows and areas for compromise grow with it.

Guessing, all guessing, based on nothing but speculation. It is not an unusual tussle, the first party claiming its legal rights the other party seeing a moral right in the value adding that has gone on and wanting some greater reward for it. It is understandable, with patience it can be resolved, but with a cash flow it can be resolved all the quicker with a little compromise on both sides.

It may not end up being a legal resolution as such, but rather a business one, if I am even close to what it is all about. But a business solution requires money flow - which gets me back to the PS3.

What I am suggesting in legal terms, is if this is a little close to the truth, and not getting on one side or other - a solution may involve a trust fund, a couple of new convernants (which do not make a presumption on one side or the other) and a business direction re PS3 that is capable of getting the cash moving.

It is a patch-up solution, not a resolution to whatever the dispute is about. Such things can be done, the legal dispute can be put aside for a time without prejudice - to me the immediate thing is to get AOS4 into a money making position.

Of course with such guesswork involved I could be talking through my hat, or the other end. I'll juyst keep saying PS3, and getting a development machine may be a bettger investment than paying for legal advice at such a time. But then I don't actually know anything so I better shut up.

_________________
Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

@Colin_Camper

Quote:

Am I the only person on AW to see the BillMcE Q&A as a positive

No! I feel the exact same way. Totally got my energy back after reading Bills possitive statements about the Amiga's future.



/shoe - www.amigaos.se

@Georg

Quote:

Does that work even if it's a port + enhancement of corresponding OS component sources belonging to others (AInc, Hyperion) and/or using original sources as documentation/basis for rewrite?

It's not a port. It's a complete rewrite.

Does AROS claim ownership of their own Exec rewrite (or the rewrite of any AmigaOS system component)? If not, how do you apply a license to it?

_________________
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@elatour

Quote:

Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but who actually owns ExecSG?

Thomas (Entil'Zha) and myself.

Quote:

Assuming that they don't own it, what would preclude them from buying it or licensing it from the owner?

Nothing, it's just that Amiga didn't ask us for a license yet, and Hyperion knows what it takes to obtain a source code license.

[edit] Please refrain from sending offers for ExecSG. When I said "up for sale", I didn't mean that it is going to go to the highest bidder. Like I wrote in the other thread, I am shutting up now, I am sick and tired of getting everything I said misinterpreted and twisted.

Last edited by Rogue on 19-Sep-2006 at 01:32 PM.

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@Tigger

Quote:

If someone pays you to do an OS and you buy it back according to the contract (which specifically says source), and you say sorry it doesnt include the kernal, etc, which seems to be what we are getting from several of the OS 4 developers this is an open and shut case, Hyperion has no chance of winning.

Considering you do not know anything about the internals, that is a pretty bold statement.

Let's just say things are different and I am not going to honor the rest of your post with an answer.

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@GregS

Hmm, maybe Hyperion should name it OS4.2 afther
all these updates, then they can put the price up.

But i would like to say it again, i would like to see that
OS4.+ stays as an developer-pool and can sell their
stuff on the ppc-hardware. Then the developers could
contact Amiga Inc. to market their software with OS5
for a larger market.

So for me they have to exist both. (atleast at this time).

Just my thoughts.

_________________
A1G3-SE + OS4.1 u1 iso (x2)

@Wayne

Quote:

Wayne wrote: @saimo Quote: edit: forgot to add: of course, AInc cannot buy from Hyperion what Hyperion does not own. ..... And even after this silly crap, everyone still wonders WHY Amiga Inc would want to just forget OS4 and write their own to circumvent the nightmare situation cooked up by the apparent -- or I should say alleged -- mis-management done by Hyperion? Hell, if I were in AI's shoes, I'd have done the exact same thing LONG before they did, which would tend to support that AI did try to work things out.

Unfortunately you are considering the situation only from a certain POV. There are possible scenarios were things are much different. But we don't have enough information to do anything but speculate. If we stick to just speculating, that's OK. But blaming this or that without the necessary amount information is not correct.

Quote:

It's very simple. You contract for someone. They own your output. That is -- in absolute non-negotiable fact -- what they are paying you for.

What you pay for is defined in the contract

saimo

P.S. I'm not saying that I like the current situation or that it is ideal.

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@Colin_Camper

Well, the 'answers' don't mean much to me. Years ago, I would have jumped in defence, but now...well...

There was awesome vision with the OS4/AmigaDE roadmap, but it definitely went very wrong. The whole image of a modern scalable OS environment was a beautiful one, but what came of that? JackPot and a horrid website?

As a 'company' who claim to be what they are, I don't see any of it. I see a really tacky website, that is laughed at by many. I couldn't post Amiga's website to anyone without it getting a huge grilling. It truly is awful...first impressions, eh.

The OS4 team have done a HUGE and admirable job. But I don't see any clear direction anymore, apart from it being a hobby OS for us Amiga users. I hope that can change... of course, it's much more complicated than that. All business is. I appreciate that.

Bill's OS5 comments confuse me even more. If there's a roadmap between OS4 and OS5, why do the Friedens (developers) know nothing about it? And if they were only approached a couple of months ago in regards to writing a new kernel, has it really been in development for 2 years, like Bill said? It's only natural to have doubts after all that has happened.

I, like many, tend to keep quiet and just wait...and I shall continue to do so.

*digs out his old CU Amiga issues and oogles at the AmigaDE/AmigaOS combination*

Steve

_________________
A1200T - OS4.0,OS3.9: 603e PPC 200mhz,060 50mhz, 256mb ram, FastATA MK-III, BVision, 160gb,20gb HDDs

A1200 - OS3.1: Blizzard IV 030, 64mb ram, 400mb HDD

OS4.x - Flying the AMIGA flag

@Herewegoagain

Quote:

@joerg You say that OS5 is AmigaAnywhere,

No, I didn't.

@GregS

Quote:

GregS wrote: Now Amiga Inc wants what it signed for, but Hyperion thinks it has more than was ever contacted, the latter party wants more for what it has.

Greg,

That's just not the way things work. If I go into a car dealership and order then PAY FOR (as Amiga Inc has) a base model Dodge Neon economy car with no frills or extras and the dealer hands me the keys to a Dodge Viper saying "we realize you wanted a Neon and that's what we ordered for you but the guys at the factory thought you'd prefer this Viper, so that's what they built for you instead", they cannot expect me to pay more than I already paid for the Dodge Neon.

There is a contract for an Operating System. It has been paid for (accepting McEwen's word for it), and not delivered. "Because it's better than you wanted" should be a matter of pride on the part of the programmers, but in our little example here, THEY went beyond the call of the contract and wrote it. They have no right to any expectation -- let alone demands -- for more money for writing something above the scope of the original contract.

It would be nice if everyone could see it that way and reach a compromise, but let's face it here. Outside of this almost invisible hobbyist community, OS4 is irrelevant and it's only chance of AmigaOS surviving is to be portable on commodity hardware such as the x86 represents. This is, I'm hoping, what McEwen's reference to OS5 represents.

Granted, like you said, we're just speculating here, but if we're even remotely correct, Hyperion has no legal grounds to stand on in a court of law and will lose, badly. Best case scenario, Hyperion is forced to release OS4 to Amiga Inc and is removed from further interaction. Worst? Hyperion is forced to release OS4 to Amiga Inc and has to pay millions in penalties for holding it hostage and delaying it's release.

The question I want answered is, how many years has legal crap been going on when OS4 could have already been in the hands of the people who've already bought and paid for it (us, the community)? Two? Three?

Wayne

_________________
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The new social network for Amiga Community Refugees
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@Wayne

I agree with the general concept that the customer cannot be charged for more even when he is actually given spontaneously more by the dealer.
However, you cannot strictly apply that logic to the current case because nobody here knows what really happened! F.ex., are you sure that AOS4.0 has been pushed beyond without AInc's approval? Are you sure that in no case there are strictly technical reasons that justify the progress in some areas (f.ex. A ended up being necessary for B, although A was not conteplated in the original plan... a careful and complete design takes ages and even then may turn out to have its flaws)?
As I have already said, let's speculate without going beyond that... otherwise, who would pay us the price?

saimo

Last edited by saimo on 19-Sep-2006 at 03:45 PM.

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@Rogue

Quote:

Hyperion knows what it takes to obtain a source code license

Considering that

Quote:

Hyperion shall use best efforts to secure the widest possible rights from third party contractors

(quoted from what is alleged to be the draft OS4 contract), I guess Hyperion is contractually obliged to AI to do what it takes to obtain a source code license.

@saimo

Quote:

F.ex., are you sure that AOS4.0 has been pushed beyond without AInc's approval? Are you sure that in no case there are strictly technical reasons that justify the progress in some areas (f.ex. A ended up being necessary for B, although A was not conteplated in the original plan... a careful and complete design takes ages and even then may turn out to have its flaws)?

No. In that case, you take the problem to the company who contracted you and say, it cannot be done as planned because of these technical problems. We need to restructure the contract to take these things into concideration so we can move forward.

@saimo

Again, all this is just speculation, and I hate to see any of it because the only people suffering are the people who've already paid for it (being the customer who bought the $1000 board and AI)..

IMNSHO, It doesn't matter how much was put into OS4 or by whom, because it's still light years behind every other OS out there. Furthermore, keeping it out of the hands of the very people who may become curious enough to start programming for it (how most Commodore Amiga programmers started) is the very opposite of "the right thing to do".

Wayne

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@Herewegoagain

Quote:

Herewegoagain wrote: No. In that case, you take the problem to the company who contracted you and say, it cannot be done as planned because of these technical problems. We need to restructure the contract to take these things into concideration so we can move forward.

You can't "restructure" a contract and hold the product hostage AFTER it's been agreed upon, signed, and paid for in full. If Best Buy sells you a 27" Sony TV and you pay for it then they deliver you a 36" Sony TV, that's a problem for Best Buy, not you.

The worst case scenario is that Best Buy (in this case Hyperion) takes back the 36" TV then forces you to wait for years while they find another 27" TV for you but considering the fact that they already delivered a 36" TV, you'd be prone to want to hang on to it (even though Best Buy wants to demand the extra money for it).

That's an illegal tactic called "Bait and Switch". Again, all of this is pure speculation, but unlike most Bills I know, McEwen hasn't screwed me over, so I'm prone to take his word for it.

Wayne

_________________
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@Wayne

Okay, I understand not being able to restructure what has already been contracted and paid for. But if additional things needed to be done to make it work properly, they could have generated a second contract outlining the additional work and conditions to be met couldn't they?

Last edited by Herewegoagain on 19-Sep-2006 at 04:28 PM.

@Wayne

First I will just re-iterate that my posts are speculative - I have no idea what the legal wrangle is all about. Not that you have suggested anything else, but it does not hurt to say it again for readers of the thread.

I agree that in an ideal world something is contracted and what has been contracted is delivered. I also agree that ideally law should clarify such relationships so that things move smoothly.

However, when there is contension both parties tend to see things differently, and law can be a resort to use rather than resolve things (I don't know if this is the case - it is just a generalization), and in a well known case the law did prove itself an ass.

I am not seeing this as bad guys versus good guys. A good many years ago I saw enough of business practice to be somewhat reserved on just what consitutes good or bad business practice, I sure saw a lot of pushing and shoving, deception and self-deception (maybe that's just Australia's convict past showing through).

Also I am unashambaly pro-Amiga Inc because I like the direction they are going in (the plans may have changed a little). However, I don't think the community should take sides oin this Hyperion-Amiga tussle, especially as few know what it is all about and those that do are quite rightly keeping their mouths shut.

To me right and wrong of whatever is at issue gets resolved elsewhere and without my knowledge. However, it seems to me that the most likely cause of dispute could be a simple one. That Hyperion feels it has more than it was paid for, wants some bigger stake in OS4 and probably feels justified in this, Amiga inc naturally would not see it the same way.

That is a natural business collision that I have seen many times before in a variety of forms. It can be resolved legally, but that takes time and resources. I believe courts are the last resort, and I think wisely both companies are trying to stay out of them and instead are talking carefully through lawyers (based on the fact I have heard nothing of a court case).

The other resolution is a purely business one, but in the absence of a good cash flow from the product hard to achieve (somebody pays somebody else enough for them to be happy). The other way is to bed down the dispute legally, create some convenants designed merely to paper over the contensious issues, set up a trust account where a good proportion of the disputed "monies" may flow into for later disbursement (luckily software production is cheap, hence sales translate into profits rather than capital needed to keep production going - we should count our belssings in this).

Again speculation, but with PS3 on the horizon, and the potential market this presents this should become the business priority of both companies. If niether can see this, then we are in real trouble. I cannot see how a PS3 OS4 would harm Amiga Incs OS5, I pray this is on the table somewhere.

Meanwhile unlike a certian past legal dispute, I believe there are just too much common ground to be overly worried by this disagreement. Both parties need money from sales, there is a potentially huge market to be had, money is after all the purpose of business.

As for OS4 being behind the other OSes, well it depends what you are measuring, in elegance and ease of use it is way ahead especially if you think in terms of a PS3 OS.

OS4 has now just about all the OS present to handsomely cover PS3 computer use, it has most but not all the applications to make it immediately useful, and people just love usiung it which no other OS can claim to the same extent.

_________________
Greg Schofield, Perth Australia