@DrBombcrater

> Try for a moment to see things from the perspective of an AmigaOS-on-x86 advocate.


I just don't get it. Why do some people want to turn the Amiga into a PC. I don't want a PC whether it runs OS4 or not.

For those that like x86 hardware then buy it, run Windows on it and be happy with your x86 box.


Now can we get back to the title of this thread and find out a bit more about what went on at AmiWest 2006.



Bill.

@saimo
Quote:

saimo wrote: @hatschi Quote: Well, at Amiwest, you might have had a look at a first outcome of 1 1/2 years - a board which is hardly ever going to work. Heck, we can't even have AmigaOS ported to existing PPC platforms like PPC Macs or the Pegasos 2 from bplan. You forget to mention that there are other projects. One of which, by the way, looks much more promising and, when publically presented, was not only already in the process of getting a license, but even rather positively acknowledged by Bill McEwen in person: its name is Samantha. And let's not forget that Samantha is not the only project from the same team.

Since you also said:
Quote:

All I've been saying is that I don't find nice nor correct presenting only some (grim) sides of the situation, especially to a "newcomer".

To correctly present the situation we might also mention the fact that this Samantha has been presented also at Alchimie this week end, and 1 month after its original presentation, it was still not powered on and not running any kind of OS (nor any BIOS).

@Seehund
Quote:

IIRC, the stated initial price was $400 excluding taxes and OS4.

Sadly, you don't remember clearly. The stated initial price was 370-399 EUR which is higher than 400 US$. And yes, that was exluding VAT and OS4.

@falemagn

Quote:

Saimo, if indeed hatschi is making the situation look worse than it is, you're doing nothing to make it look better. If you think hatschi has posted wrong information, just correct them, or at least present your own view of the situation. All you're doing is bickering, and that helps no one.

My posts are still there for you to read whenever you please. When/if you read them, you'll find that I do add information and that I always give an explanation when I say that I find the information posted by hatschi is incomplete and/or (could be) wrong.

Quote:

As far as I'm concerned, hatschi way of presenting the information is spot on and depicts the state of facts as accurately as possible, within the constraint of keeping the post under a readable size.

My posts contain a few elements that show why (I think that) hatschi's information is not "spot on and depicts the state of facts as accurately as possible", without being overly large.


If, instead of generically accusing me of bickering and generically saying you agree with hatschi, you had answered the points I raised, your post would have been much more interesting.

saimo

edit: forgot "incomplete"

Last edited by saimo on 23-Oct-2006 at 04:22 PM.

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@Carl-S

What a great honor it is to have you on board.

to AmigaWorld.net

Please do 'drop by' from time to time.

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"Would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom?!?" William Wallace (Mel Gibson in Braveheart

@Zontrox

Yeah I agree with that sentiment.

In fact, We have found the next Moderator !!

Carl-S for Mod !!

At least he will have the power to delete threads that get polluted with bickering.

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I dont suffer from Insanity - I enjoy it

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@koksa

Quote:

To correctly present the situation we might also mention the fact that this Samantha has been presented also at Alchimie this week end, and 1 month after its original presentation, it was still not powered on and not running any kind of OS (nor any BIOS).

That's true. I did not intentionally omit this - just did not think about it.
So, the fact is that Samantha publically has not been seen running. I'll let the developers fill the gaps if they wish to bless us with more information about the actual status of the project

saimo

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@hatschi

Quote:

As far as I can see, Carl brought up the x86-topic himself

Indeed. Guys, Carl probably hasn't been "in the loop" for a while and hasn't seen the previous threads on this. It's an obvious question to newbies. Perhaps there could be a link on the front AW.net page somewhere to certain FAQs such as a direct link to something about x86 and another direct link to somehting about Macs that are easy for newbies on this site to see. I'm nto saying everyone will understand the logic behing the "PPC-only" or the "PPC-only but no Macs" decisions, but at least they might be easier to find and know about than risking innocent people getting flamed because they don't yet know not to ask those things. I for one would hate to see Carl get run off this site because he unknowingly asked a forbidden question and got a lot of unpleasant responses because of it, let's try to keep him feeling happy to be here...

@DrBombcrater

Quote:

It's like being on a sinking ship. The x86 guys are sitting in the lifeboats screaming "Come on, get in! The ship is sinking!" while the PPC enthusiasts are calmly moving deckchairs around and discussing what to have for dinner that night.

There are a few who know about and are willing to try and plug the holes in the boat. Some we know about. Some have been ignored or denied their request to work on the holes, some have been approved. Will it be enough? I hope so. We'll just have to wait and see. Anybody have a snorkel I can borrow just in case? :)

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All glory to the Hypnotoad!

@billt

Quote:

Particularly the UniNorth/2/3/etc Apple-custom Northbridge chips

At the risk of being OT --- I *still* don't understand why an OS (rather than the formware) would need to know anything about the northbridge. Can you explain that to me, please? Keeping in mind that, unlike the A1 at its introduction, Macs already have perfectly good firmware which has been in use by literally millions of people for years....

@saimo


>- "the comparably weak performance", without mentioning that:
> a) Samantha is inteded to be an entry-level board;

At a high end price (and thats still true if the cut the announced proto-price in half)

> b) Moana is intended to fullfil more demanding desires;

Sam hasn't been shown working yet, Moana is just a pipe-dream atm (atleast for the public eye), how long do you want to keep Carl waiting.

> c) AOS4 would run decently on it anyway;

Great argument ..... NOT ...... try running ! 1 ! demanding app on it and you will stop caring bout the size of the OS. If anybody would write demanding apps for an OS that only runs on sub GHz HW .....

The point is, OS4 (and MorphOS too) needs fast affordable and stable HW, not in a year or two, it needs it now. No matter wether it's G4, G5, Core-Duo, Opteron or an 68100 running at 2GHz.....

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- blame Canada

@saimo

Quote:

If, instead of generically accusing me of bickering and generically saying you agree with hatschi, you had answered the points I raised, your post would have been much more interesting.

I can't but catch your attempt at staying calm while at the same time expressing your offence at what I've written. I don't want to engage yet another personal discussion (god, am I tired of them!) so please, pay attention to the fact that we've had to wait for your 3rd message in order to get some more insight in what you were thinking, and I was referring to the other 2 posts of yours. Then, as others have pointed out already, your points aren't exactly making the situation look better (you "forgot" to mention that Samantha hasn't been shown to work as of yet - quite pointless of hatschi to point out its existence, don't you believe?).

I had nothing to add to what hatschi said, that's why I simply agreed with him.

_________________
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system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@Kneedeep

Quote:

Kneedeep wrote: @Tigger "Which board will be addressing this situation in a short order?" hmmmm the one for Carl?

I think you are misreading HyperionMPs post. He said they are addressing the Hardware problem (ie for everyone) and later says they are going to send Carl hardware. I want to know which hardware now has a license and will shortly have OS4 running on it, because we have yet to see any of the AmigaOne replacement boards powered up at an Amiga show (since they arent willing to go with Mac, Pegasos or Efika).
-Tig

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We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Kronos

Quote:

>- "the comparably weak performance", without mentioning that: > a) Samantha is inteded to be an entry-level board; At a high end price (and thats still true if the cut the announced proto-price in half)

I have answered to this point already, so please excuse me if I don't repeat myself again.

Quote:

> b) Moana is intended to fullfil more demanding desires; Sam hasn't been shown working yet, Moana is just a pipe-dream atm (atleast for the public eye),

Yes, Samantha has not been shown while running. But that's it *shrug*. Before the "clue game" you did not even know about its existence. You know, those guys like to do solid facts behind the scenes
As for Moana, it's been worked on much longer than Samantha... Sam is just an addition of the last 7-8 months or so. Yep, it is true, Moana has not been publically unveiled yet, but the people behind it (the same behind Samantha) have been discussing about it for a long time, and I they look quite reliable - sure, there is no certainty, but there is hope, and this makes the situation less grim.

Quote:

how long do you want to keep Carl waiting.

Quote:

> c) AOS4 would run decently on it anyway; Great argument ..... NOT ...... try running ! 1 ! demanding app on it and you will stop caring bout the size of the OS. If anybody would write demanding apps for an OS that only runs on sub GHz HW .....

I had already addressed this... but, anyway... a short piece of self-quoting won't hurt
From my post #36:
Quote:

Isn't the low footprint of AOS4 a relevant and important part as regards the performance? Sure, it does not solve all the problems of a relatively not powerful HW, but it helps.

Quote:

The point is, OS4 (and MorphOS too) needs fast affordable and stable HW, not in a year or two, it needs it now.

True.

Quote:

No matter wether it's G4, G5, Core-Duo, Opteron or an 68100 running at 2GHz.....

Well, actually it matters. The factors involved are many and I'm honestly not able to tackle all of them; besides, I don't think this is the right place for another CPUx VS CPUy flamewar...

saimo

P.S. [OT] hey, is it just me, or today there are connection problems with AW.net?[/OT]

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RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@saimo

Yes.. AW is VERY sticky today.

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I dont suffer from Insanity - I enjoy it

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@saimo

Now that you've dissected all arguments and presented all of your optimistic "facts", please go ahead and sum up all our viewpoints in a single, objective post.

You know, in order to be really be informative, you could have presented more than just your own one-sided view.

@falemagn

Quote:

I can't but catch your attempt at staying calm while at the same time expressing your offence at what I've written.

I was not offended. You accused me of just bickering whereas I *had* made some points. I pointed that out and remaked that answering those points would have been better. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:

I don't want to engage yet another personal discussion (god, am I tired of them!)

So pay attention to what you write

Quote:

so please, pay attention to the fact that we've had to wait for your 3rd message in order to get some more insight in what you were thinking, and I was referring to the other 2 posts of yours.

From my very first post in this thread:
Quote:

The situation is grim, but you do all your best to make it look grimmer. And I don't find this particularly nice when you do it also with somebody who does not (seem to) have a full picture of the situation. To really be informative, you could have presented more than your one-sided view.

This alone makes my thoughts very clear. The whole post gives an even clearer idea of what I was after.

Quote:

Then, as others have pointed out already, your points aren't exactly making the situation look better

The fact that there is more HW potentially suitable for AOS4 than that mentioned by hatschi puts the situation in a different light.

Quote:

(you "forgot" to mention that Samantha hasn't been shown to work as of yet - quite pointless of hatschi to point out its existence, don't you believe?).

Yes, I forgot. Feel free to doubt it, but I did forget about it as I was focused on replying to hatschi that was presenting a situation where all the possible HW reduced to Macs and Pegs; on the other hand, I did not absolutely claim that Sam already runs AOS4 and/or has a license: I just reported the official information. And no, it is not pointless mentioning the existence of Samantha when speaking of HW for AOS4.

You, hatschi and whoever else may not believe in the Samantha, Moana, Bridgette, ACK's and Troika's projects, but that's not a good reason not to mention them when presenting the situation to a newcomer that is starting to learn about it. Just present them for what they are and let him form his own idea. This is why I answered hatschi in first place - the circle is now complete.

saimo

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@hatschi

Quote:

Now that you've dissected all arguments and presented all of your optimistic "facts", please go ahead and sum up all our viewpoints in a single, objective post.

All I wanted to say was already entirely present in the post you link below. It must be the tenth time I expressly say that my intention was to add information to what you said in order to give a better idea of what the situation is now.

Quote:

You know, in order to be really be informative, you could have presented more than just your own one-sided view.

So, where's my one-sidedness, there?

saimo

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@saimo

Quote:

You, hatschi and whoever else may not believe in the Samantha, Moana, Bridgette, ACK's and Troika's projects,

Where did you exactly get the doubt that I don't "believe in the Samantha, Moana, Bridgette [any more girls-names?]" projects?

a short piece of self-quoting won't hurt:
Quote:

Yes, I do think that things are looking much better with Samantha and I do hope that they sort out the remaining difficulties very soon (license, OS4-porting/modifying, etc.).

@hatschi

Quote:

Quote: You, hatschi and whoever else may not believe in the Samantha, Moana, Bridgette, ACK's and Troika's projects, Where did you exactly get the doubt that I don't "believe in the Samantha, Moana, Bridgette [any more girls-names?]" projects? a short piece of self-quoting won't hurt: Quote: Yes, I do think that things are looking much better with Samantha and I do hope that they sort out the remaining difficulties very soon (license, OS4-porting/modifying, etc.).

The first element comes straight from the piece that immediately followed your self-quote above:
Quote:

However, given the rumoured price and the comparably weak performance, I don't think that this platform will attract many "outsiders" to AmigaOS, especially when comparing it to the possibilities you would have with AmigaOS on cheap off-the-shelf x86-hardware.

which precisely means you don't believe that Samantha can be a successful project (notice how I have already fully explained my thought about it in the relative answer).
The last comes from the "[any more girls-names?]" which has a derisive taste

As for the extra girls, scratch those that don't apply... I was just making a general statement without any intention to put specific words in anybody's mouth - sorry if it turned out to sound so and/or offensive.

saimo

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RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@saimo

Having a tight OS doesn't matter that much anymore as it did 10 years ago.

Take for example OSX, sure it's bloated, one might even say it's slow by design, but since the low-end mac of the day has 2 cores running at 1.6-1.8GHz and comes with a minimum of 512MB, who do you think will notice ? And really why should I care when it eats 10% of my resources when those remaining 90% are still 5 times more than any "Amiga" delivers "raw" ?

On the other side, the current SteamDraw (shameless plug) would probraly still run o.k. on BPPCs if one keeps the drawings small. Useing all features I plan to implement in the next 12 months won't make it an option, and even a Peg1 might struggle on non-trivial projects.

Big drawings will surely produce a noticeable delay even on Peg2, and at some point in time an G4/1GHz might not feel fast anymore.

Reaching that limit on my MacMini would be much harder I think (if I would port SteamDraw to OSX that is).

Thats something one could probraly feel even more with stuff like image-manipulating or non-linear-video (someone suggested that would be possible with Blender), so who do you think is even gonna start such apps on a proffesional level, when the CPU-power isn't good enough for anything except hoobiest-level ?

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

umisef:
"Macs already have perfectly good firmware which has been
in use by literally millions of people for years...."

That firmware is also used by bPlan..