BTW, looking for the link in the previous post, I found a lovely quote on ANN.LU (via google cache):

Quote:

Everybody also knows that these negotiations didn't go anywhere because of unreasonable demands on the part of [...] (no source-code access to the kernel, no final say by Amiga etc.). Again, I repeat: if YOU just paid 4.5 million dollars for the AmigaOS and Amiga trademarks, would YOU be satisfied with anything less? Would you want your OS to run on a kernel you don't have the source-code of? Would you not insist on a final say regarding who works on what part of the OS, what technology goes in and what doesn't? Would you accept that the same kernel would be used in the embedded space targeting traditional Amiga niches such as video-editing and kiosk systems? I know I wouldn't.

Seems strangely topical, does it not? Check out the author and the date, and tell me again that AI should have known that they would never get source code access to the kernel....

Last edited by umisef on 24-May-2007 at 05:08 PM.

Hyperion claims that they met the conditions of the OS4 release (as specified in the November 2001 agreement) back in 2004.

But....

obligations of the AmigaOne Partners under the agreement include:


Quote:

Hyperion shall develop Amiga OS 4.0 for the Target-Hardware with the minimal feature-set set out in Annex I and pursuant to the development guidelines set out in Annex I.

OK, so the IF the developer pre-release for the AmigaOne in 2004 DID indeed meet the feature-set there is still a slight problem with calling this the release...

Quote:

"Target-Hardware" means the PPC based hardware developed and marketed for the Amiga platform including but not limited to the hardware developed and marketed by Phase 5, DCE and the AmigaOne hardware developed by Escena under contract with the Amiga One Partners.

Its already been mentioned that obviously the AmigaOne hardware as termed in this agreement wasn't actually released, but Amiga Inc can't really argue that the Teron-based AmigaOne is not covered as they themselves stated that this was now the new 'AmigaOne'.

The problem is that the target hardware also includes the PPC accelerator boards from Phase 5 and DCE. For OS4 to be released for the target-hardware surely a release for these boards IS necessary. Therefore even at this point OS4 is STILL not released as-of the terms of the agreement, and Amiga Inc could still employ the buy-back option now if they hadn't already (if the contract was still in place).

_________________
Currently planning to upgrade my Amstrad CPC

@umisef

And another lovely collection of quotes:

Quote:

Should Amiga Inc buy the OS 4.0 code off Hyperion at any stage, they will once >again have to make deals with all the third party contributors. That's incorrect Bill.

Quote:

This would only apply to those contributions where our rights are limited to an object code license. As you can imagine, I've tried to stay away from that as much as possible because there have been incidents in the past where people have lost their source-code through negligence or otherwise or where developers have dropped off the face of the planet without a trace. Not exactly an ideal situation when it comes to an OS component. So as a rule, we have negotiated full source-code access.

Once again, note author, and date.

@umisef

Ben sure has a big mouth. Amiga should hire him to counter Hyperion's claims.

_________________
"Anyone with a modicum of reasonableness may realize that it is like comparing the ride in the world to descend the stairs to catch the milk in the house."

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@umisef

What Ben (if it was Ben) posted about the MorphOS team when Hyperion and Amiga were closely in bed together is pretty immaterial. Whats in the contracts between Amiga and Hyperion is whats material.

Now granted, now in 2007 with the situation what it is, taken by itself it does make him look like an ass and is quite comical. But in perspective MOS was the competition right? The one Amiga and Hyperion collectively at the time wanted to have go away correct?

Anyone thinking either side are angels and the other devils is being naive I think. I don't find this so damning considering the timing and what the mutual goals of Amiga and Hyperion were at the time.

But it surely makes for a good laugh, but a bittersweet one, since it just seems to further show that most companies in this space appear to do very wacky things.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 24-May-2007 at 05:32 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@Yabba

Quote:

Yabba wrote: @umisef Quote: And proving it is pretty much impossible --- especially if for 4 years, you have acted as if there was no insolvency. It doesn't matter that much what we think is fair or not. You are arguing that Hyperion cannot use this since this by all means, they should have known. Well, in reality Amiga Inc is trying to use the letter of the law to win over Hyperion. I'd say it is only fair if Hyperion was given the right to use the same means to fight back. NO MATTER if we think it is fair or not who wins. rgds, Stefan

(Emphasis mine)

Hmmmm... This brings to mind an interesting question: Could Amiga Inc be trying to use the letter of the law to defeat the spirit of the law?

_________________
"I love peacenicks, they're so easy to conquer." --Ivan J Ironfist, the Dictator

Also another slight problem... If it is ruled that the buyback didn't take place then Hyperion still don't have the right to port OS4 to other systems..

Why?

Because the IP & trademarks of AmigaOS still belong to Amiga Inc and Hyperion can still only use them in accordance with the agreement.

Quote from Article 3.01 of the agreement:

Quote:

In the event Amiga does not elect to carry out the aforementioned payment, all ownership and title in the enhancements of and additions to the Software effected by Hyperion and its subcontractors pursuant to this Agreement, shall rest with Hyperion.

Hyperion would only have ownership of the enhancements and additions to the AmigaOS. Even assuming that there is no Amiga Inc owned property left in OS4 and it is all Hyperion's and their sub-contractors own work, they wouldn't be able to use the AmigaOS name for any version of OS4 other than the versions for the specified target-hardware (PPC accelerators for Classic Amiga and AmigaOne).

_________________
Currently planning to upgrade my Amstrad CPC

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

What Ben (if it was Ben) posted about the MorphOS team when Hyperion and Amiga were closely in bed together is pretty immaterial.

However, Ben posted that getting only object-code access to the kernel of a new AmigaOS, and/or having that kernel being used in other places was ENTIRELY UNREASONABLE. He is also quite adamant about AI not being willing to sign on for such a deal, but rather requiring source code access to any new AmigaOS.

And yet, here we are, 5 years later, and Hyperion is claiming that OF COURSE Amiga should have been aware that the Friedens were merely contractors, and OF COURSE Amiga should never have expected to get sources to the kernel.

How could Amiga POSSIBLY get that impression, given Ben's numerous public statements which are strongly indicating the exact opposite?

Oh, and did you catch the one where he claimed that "three Hyperion staffers" were working fulltime on OS4? No mention of "independent subcontractors" there.....

@Skunkfish

Quote:

In the event Amiga does not elect to carry out the aforementioned payment, all ownership and title in the enhancements of and additions to the Software effected by Hyperion and its subcontractors pursuant to this Agreement, shall rest with Hyperion.

An interesting clause in itself --- because taken literally, it grants Hyperion ownership and title to the work done by its subcontractors, which is hardly something AI and Hyperion can decide on.

However, replace "rest" with "remain" in that sentence (which is pretty close to a synonym), and things get interesting. Because if all rights were to remain with Hyperion in the case that AI does not elect to do the buy-back, then it is implied that these rights are with Hyperion at the time a buyback may or may not occur.

So once again, AI can hardly be faulted for expecting Hyperion to actually hold the rights to "the enhancements and additions to the Software".

@Thread

Ok, first off;
Stop the personal insults (to either participants or people not posting) and petty remarks. I don't mean just Tigger in this but also those that feel the need to reply to him and return the favor. Most of it is on the border of a TOS violation, so I suggest to stop it before it crosses the border.

Second;
It seems a few people are arguing with each other but mean different things or just don't understand each other. I invite all people posting to go back to the start of the thread and start reading till the end, review all documents again, al external links given and re-evaluate.

_________________
~
Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
~

@Spectre660

Quote:

Spectre660 wrote: Hyperion are responsible for the marketing of OS4.0. They could call the release whatever they wanted. The first release had the tools for developers included and it was the first release outside the circle of developers and beta testers.

Friedens clearly stated there was no release of OS4. http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2798

"Rogue: As you have probably already guessed, there will be no OS 4 release this year."

And this was in 2005.

@umisef

Quote:

umisef wrote: @fairlanefastback Quote: What Ben (if it was Ben) posted about the MorphOS team when Hyperion and Amiga were closely in bed together is pretty immaterial. However, Ben posted that getting only object-code access to the kernel of a new AmigaOS, and/or having that kernel being used in other places was ENTIRELY UNREASONABLE. He is also quite adamant about AI not being willing to sign on for such a deal, but rather requiring source code access to any new AmigaOS. And yet, here we are, 5 years later, and Hyperion is claiming that OF COURSE Amiga should have been aware that the Friedens were merely contractors, and OF COURSE Amiga should never have expected to get sources to the kernel. How could Amiga POSSIBLY get that impression, given Ben's numerous public statements which are strongly indicating the exact opposite? Oh, and did you catch the one where he claimed that "three Hyperion staffers" were working fulltime on OS4? No mention of "independent subcontractors" there.....

But by the same logic then we should take Bill M.'s emails to the Friendens at face value, the ones where he says, very recently I might add in comparison, that Amiga has no claim to the kernal of OS 4 as I read it.

Its not the public statements that matter that may have been condoned by Amiga for all we know (remember Bill M. even recently wanted to deal blows to Bill B. and Morph it seems) but what these PARTNERS were writing to each other in private communication and what written agreements they had with each other in place.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 24-May-2007 at 06:47 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@Tigger who said Quote:

Quote: Your arguements are degraded by your lack of respect towards the parties involved, and your petty name-calling. By continually talking about the parties involved in this manner you are degrading any point you may be trying to make. First of all the cult of personality that has risen about the Friedens is pretty silly. These are a couple of guys who were known for writing bad ports of open source games until the Sheeplord decided to give Hyperion the job for OS4.

Sorry, but that's a pretty stupid argument, and only makes you seem like a troll:

I've been one of the few people critical of the Frieden's behaviour on AW.net, yet I still think being rude about them OR ANYONE ELSE is neither called for, nor appropriate. You only degrade yourself when you do it, and the fact that you cannot understand that is very telling about you personally.

While some of your arguments do seem to have merit, you make a lot of claims which you expect us to take on faith. Well, sadly I don't have that faith in you, because of your behaviour. And I suspect a lot of other people will feel similarly.

If you wish to be rude, please kindly do it on Moo Bunny.

_________________

@victim

Quote:

victim wrote: @Spectre660 Quote: Spectre660 wrote: Hyperion are responsible for the marketing of OS4.0. They could call the release whatever they wanted. The first release had the tools for developers included and it was the first release outside the circle of developers and beta testers. Friedens clearly stated there was no release of OS4. http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2798 "Rogue: As you have probably already guessed, there will be no OS 4 release this year." And this was in 2005.

LOL, I guess you missed the record album analogy. A release involves publishing a product. The developmental life cycle of that product is something else.

.

Last edited by Spectre660 on 24-May-2007 at 08:04 PM.

_________________
Sam460ex : Radeon Rx550 Single slot Video Card : SIL3112 SATA card

@umisef

Quote:

Quote: @Sneaky Quote:Insolvency is a condition. Short rough example: Insolvency: You look in your wallet and find it empty. Not exactly. Many people look at their wallets (or their bank accounts --- this is the 21st century, after all) at the end of a pay cycle and find them empty. Many of those people have outstanding debts, and quite a few even have debts which are due.

I thought that with inserting the word "rough" it would be clear, that it's a very simplyfied example, but, as always, someone has to proove assumptions wrong.

So I should have added a
"Insolvency:
You look in your wallet and find it empty and you can find no one who is willing to lend you something anymore and you don't now where to get your next meal."

And that's EXACTLY what Mr. McEwan testified.
Income?
No.
Any posessions?
Some Laptops and PC?
Anything else? No.

And with those 3 IP assets you reffering to, you have to find someone who would pay that much to get you solvent again.
But obviously, that wasn't the plan, because AmigaInc#1 is still insolvent.

BTW, insolvency is not about what a firm owns or real estate, cars etc, but MONEY to pay the bills. You know trading is over for some years now, currency was invented. If you are low on money, you have to sell something. If you have nothing to sell or no one will buy it, well then your insolvent.

Perhapes you heard of BenqSiemens Mobile Phones in Germany? Former SiemensMobile? They had about 250.000.000 Euro cash, but it wasn't enough to pay the workers for IMHO about 3 months, so they had to file insolvency, although their assetts were fabrication, furniture, cars, mobile phones, shipping agreements with CellphoneProviders, etc. But their managment was taken over by an insolvency counsel and all assetts have been sold by now and the money is used to fullfill the claims of their creditors.

What I found out by now is, that Bancrupcy in Germany is a criminal offence, with penalties up to five years in jail!
That's for moving assets away, destroying or making them unusable while facing excessive indebtedness or illiquidity.
So if AmigaInc#1 were a german entity they wouldn't have a problem with Hyperion, but with the office of the district attorney/Crown Prosecution Service/Staatsanwaltschaft!
Or what would you call trying to sell your assets to another company for nearly nothing? At least the sum was so small, that noone, who sued AmigaInc#1 successfully, ever saw a penny of it?

Just my 2ct for now

Edit: Thought I messed up the Layout, but couldn't find where or how. Could it be Post 659 by Spectre660?

Last edited by Sneaky on 24-May-2007 at 07:37 PM.
Last edited by Sneaky on 24-May-2007 at 07:35 PM.

@Sneaky

It was already messed up when I posted/ looked at my post

Last edited by Spectre660 on 24-May-2007 at 08:01 PM.

_________________
Sam460ex : Radeon Rx550 Single slot Video Card : SIL3112 SATA card

O.k. seems someone broke an XOOPS here, time to stop babbling, time to boot AmigaOS2.0, the last version where it is 100% who owned all parts when released

Last edited by Kronos on 24-May-2007 at 08:01 PM.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@victim

Friedens clearly stated there was no release of OS4. http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2798[/quote]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release


A software release is the distribution, whether public or private, of an initial or new and upgraded version of a computer software product. Each time a software program or system is changed, the programmers and company doing the work decide on how to distribute the program or system, or changes to that program or system. Software patches are one method of distributing the changes, as are downloads and compact discs.

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Sam460ex : Radeon Rx550 Single slot Video Card : SIL3112 SATA card

Its a pity I had to return before Amiga Inc withdraws their Motion for Injunctive relief.
If any one thinks that Amiga Delaware can win this first motion they are in for a rude shock. Amiga Delaware have been taken to the cleaners big time ............

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Sam460ex : Radeon Rx550 Single slot Video Card : SIL3112 SATA card