@smithy

Quote:

smithy wrote: Because: (a) they don't have the funds

They seem to have more then Hyperion.

Quote:

(b) they don't have any knowhow to develop an OS

Either does Hyperion. They contracted all the work out.

Quote:

(c) by all accounts, they've squandered all goodwill with the OS4 developers

Hyperion owes most of the OS4 guys lots of money, I'm not sure there is alot of goodwill there either.

Quote:

(d) they've never had any interest in desktop or AmigaOS

Remember Hyperion was making an Embedded OS.

Quote:

(e) they don't own the trademark "Amiga" so couldn't call it "AmigaOS" anyway.

Whether AI(D) owns the trademark may be up to debate, the fact Hyperion doesnt isnt in question.


So I guess my point is that all 5 of those points are true for Hyperion as well, should we start a new thread on them as well?
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

We know Acube approached Amiga, thinking thats where they needed to get a license from. We don't know why Acube decided it wasn't the place to make an agreement, and we don't know of any serious efforts on Amiga's part in this area. All we know is that Acube instead signed a deal with Hyperion.

Hyperion didnt deliver the OS to AI, which prevented AI from delivering to Acube, thats pretty evident from the documents provided and the comments from the AI depositions.

Quote:

Who the developers stand with seems to be a likely indication of who they think is serious in moving forward, both in efforts with them and for the OS in general.

No, it means they are still listening to Benji, we are your friends, we'd love to pay you soon, AI is really hurting our ability to make money for you, please ignore that we sold the OS back in 2003.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @smithy Quote: smithy wrote: Because: (a) they don't have the funds They seem to have more then Hyperion.

Tell that to Kent. Lets hope they really do and are using the $2.5 million for AOS 5 now instead.

Quote:

So I guess my point is that all 5 of those points are true for Hyperion as well, should we start a new thread on them as well?

Sure, got to town. Maybe both sides will try to get to a negotiating table then instead of court.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @samface Quote: Wether ACK will be able to deliver is irrelevant. What we're discussing is wether Amiga Inc. has the intention of putting the AmigaOS IP in an IP vault or not. Regardless if ACK will ever deliver or whatever ACK's credibility of delivering may be, why would Amiga Inc. make such agreements if the plan is to put the AmigaOS IP in the IP vault? Amiga's beliefs about the ability to deliver certainly would be tied to how serious or not such an announcement is on their part.

But what does *your* speculations about ACK's abilities to deliver have to do with Amiga Inc.'s beliefs? ACK might just as well have had Amiga Inc. convinced for what we know.

Furthermore, as I said earlier, ACK are not the only ones they have tried to partner with. Why Amiga Inc. failed to come to an agreement with ACube, supposedly unrelated to Hyperion's at the same time announced agreement with ACube, is irrelevant. The act of attempting it is enough to suggest that their plan is NOT to simply put the AmigaOS IP in some IP vault.

And then, even if disregarding the above circumtances, you still haven't explain why they would have to pretend to have other plans for the AmigaOS IP than they really have. A motive is quite crucial when making accusations, you know.

Quote:

Quote: Sigh... what has the above got to do with anything we're discussing here? Don't answer that. Well then don't bring it up if you don't want to talk about it. ;)

I didn't bring up any of what I was replying to by that statement. Put it back in it's context and you'll see. Funny how things actually makes sense when you don't take it out of it's context, eh? Oh yeah, I nearly forgot. Here is the disclaiming smiley: ;)

Quote:

Quote: It doesn't make sense that they would do it because ACK would not be likely to deliver, why would they have to pretend to have other plans for the AmigaOS than they really have to begin with? From their point of view, it's their IP and they should be able to do as they please with it, now shouldn't they? So why do it with ACK "because ACK would not be likely to deliver"?

Don't ask me, that's what I just tried to explain to you that it doesn't make sense.

Quote:

Since you don't have all the info you are guessing as much as anyone else.

Funny response to someone telling you that you should refrain from mixing up facts with theories. I'm not the one making claims here, on the contrary. I'm arguing here for the sake of refuting your claims.

Quote:

Its certainly to their benefit to show intentions of usage of the trademarks since one of them is in dispute currently in court. Sure they can do what they want. We can also do what we want and shun them. What of it?

Your intentions or plans for something has absolutely no bearing on wether you are more or less entitled to owning it. Try again.

Last edited by samface on 30-Jul-2007 at 07:30 PM.
Last edited by samface on 30-Jul-2007 at 07:28 PM.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@Tigger

Quote:

Hyperion didnt deliver the OS to AI, which prevented AI from delivering to Acube, thats pretty evident from the documents provided and the comments from the AI depositions.

The accusation was that Hyperion went out and interfered with a Acube-Amiga deal/relationship. They didn't not deliver to tank that deal by any indication we have. You may blame that action as the cause of the deal not happening, but thats not proof that the accusation of Hyperion seeking to interfere is true. If Amiga could prove Hyperion sabotaged something with Acube they likely would have shown it to the court already.

Quote:

No, it means they are still listening to Benji, we are your friends, we'd love to pay you soon, AI is really hurting our ability to make money for you, please ignore that we sold the OS back in 2003.

No need to be sore about it. If you think Ben's supposed power of persuasion needs to be countered write them emails or something. The fact remains that they are 3rd parties positioning themselves with Hyperion and not Amiga and it is worth us noticing and taking into consideration when we try to decipher who has the more likely intention to service us with a product offering.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 30-Jul-2007 at 07:45 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@samface

Quote:

But what does *your* speculations about ACK's abilities to deliver have to do with Amiga Inc.'s beliefs? ACK might just as well have had Amiga Inc. convinced for what we know.

Sure it could be bad management instead. You are right, but I'm well aware that could be the reason as well. Either way we are at the same bottom line. Do we as a community want to keep dealing with this firm.

Quote:

The act of attempting it is enough to suggest that their plan is NOT to simply put the AmigaOS IP in some IP vault.

I know Acube attempted. How much Amiga did is unclear. I think as a community we'd be more than happy for them to clear that up with proof.

Quote:

And then, even if disregarding the above circumtances, you still haven't explain why they would have to pretend to have other plans for the AmigaOS IP than they really have. A motive is quite crucial when making accusations, you know.

I'm not making accusations. You are the one sure of things stating "facts" when you don't have them all. I'm sharing opinions of possibilities based on what we can see from the outside looking in. If Amiga's public image can be cleared up thats great. You are the one directly accusing Hyperion of interference in a deal between Amiga and Acube. I certainly would love to see good companies providing us good products. If Amiga is such a firm then learn to communicate better with us. I didn't create this thread, nor am I the only one pointing out frustration on how they choose to communicate (or not) with us.

Quote:

Your intentions or plans for something has absolutely no bearing on wether you are more or less entitled to owning it. Try again.

Go to the US PTO site, read up a bit on protecting your trademarks, then read about Hyperion's papers showing usage of a particular trademark. Usage of trademarks or non-usage over time are factors.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 30-Jul-2007 at 07:47 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Amiga Inc.'s proof that Hyperion interfered is the announced partnership between ACube and Hyperion. Hyperion's response is that they simply deny that such agreement was ever made. What do you believe is true, that Hyperion did attempt to sublicense AmigaOS4 behind Amiga Inc.'s back or that the announcements both ACube and Hyperion made was just made up and that it was just coincidence that they pulled this public stunt around the time Amiga Inc. was trying to negotiate a deal with ACube?

And you're right, of course we should form our opinion based on other people's opinions, especially the biased kind. You do sense the irony, right?

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @fairlanefastback Amiga Inc.'s proof that Hyperion interfered is the announced partnership between ACube and Hyperion. Hyperion's response is that they simply deny that such agreement was ever made. What do you believe is true, that Hyperion did attempt to sublicense AmigaOS4 behind Amiga Inc.'s back or that the announcements both ACube and Hyperion made was just made up and that it was just coincidence that they pulled this public stunt around the time Amiga Inc. was trying to negotiate a deal with ACube?

If "Hyperion's response is that they simply deny that such agreement was ever made" as you say, they really shouldn't leave this up then:

http://www.hyperion-entertainment.biz:8080/news/2007-03-25

Where do they deny what is in this press release happened?

It also matches here:

http://www.acube-systems.com/eng/news.php?id=4

A deal between B and C does not prove that C actively performed an action to kill any deal between A and B. Thats conjecture on your part.

Acube may simply believe after speaking to both parties that Hyperion is the proper entity to deal with in regard to the AOS 4.0 IP. G*d forbid if we grant them their own ability to makes decisions when they were the ones directly dealing with either party.


Quote:

And you're right, of course we should form our opinion based on other people's opinions, especially the biased kind. You do sense the irony, right?

No, forming opinions should be based on a number of factors and observations. One of which yes can be the opinions of others, especially if they are privy to more inside info.

And its funny what you'll label a public stunt. Do you really think that Acube and Hyperion have no intention to proceed? Funny since they are both companies that have a history of producing product. Yet you'd never characterize anything Amiga did so quickly in that way I suspect. LOL!

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 30-Jul-2007 at 08:07 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 30-Jul-2007 at 08:05 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 30-Jul-2007 at 08:04 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 30-Jul-2007 at 08:01 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 30-Jul-2007 at 08:00 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @samface Quote: But what does *your* speculations about ACK's abilities to deliver have to do with Amiga Inc.'s beliefs? ACK might just as well have had Amiga Inc. convinced for what we know. Sure it could be bad management instead. You are right, but I'm well aware that could be the reason as well. Either way we are at the same bottom line. Do we as a community want to keep dealing with this firm.

Post #81, did you read it? "We" don't choose these things. Besides, you're not even "dealing" with them either. The situation is more like watching a game of hockey/football/soccer/whatever. As a watcher, you don't get to decide who plays or who wins. If the team you support scores, good for you. If they don't, tough.

Quote:

Quote: The act of attempting it is enough to suggest that their plan is NOT to simply put the AmigaOS IP in some IP vault. I know Acube attempted. How much Amiga did is unclear. I think as a community we'd be more than happy for them to clear that up with proof.

So now you want proof all of a sudden? The lack of proof never stopped your conspiracy mungoring before. I mean, how do you know ACube attempted? Oh well, it sure makes sense Amiga Inc. would want a deal with ACK but not ACube since ACube might actually deliver and make them some money, right? *sigh*

Quote:

Quote: And then, even if disregarding the above circumtances, you still haven't explain why they would have to pretend to have other plans for the AmigaOS IP than they really have. A motive is quite crucial when making accusations, you know. I'm not making accusations.

Should I interpret that as that you are retracting your claim that Amiga Inc. would only want to put the AmigaOS IP in the IP vault?

Quote:

You are the one sure of things stating "facts" when you don't have them all.

Exactly what "facts" are you referring to here?

Quote:

I'm sharing opinions of possibilities based on what we can see from the outside looking in.

If you are, perhaps you should phrase your statements accordingly?

Quote:

If Amiga's public image can be cleared up thats great. You are the one directly accusing Hyperion of interference in a deal between Amiga and Acube.

Actually, I really can't take the credit for this claim since it first made it's appearance in the lawsuit between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion. Now, this really isn't much of relevance for me since it really is besides the point of what I'm arguing here. The bottom line of what I've been trying to get to, despite your constant attempts to drift away from the subject, is to refute your claim that Amiga would only be in it for putting the AmigaOS IP in som IP vault somewhere. Do you realize how hollow your arguments seems now when you interpret everything I say as direct claims to know the facts while your statements would just be "sharing opinions of possibilities"?

Quote:

I certainly would love to see good companies providing us good products. If Amiga is such a firm then learn to communicate better with us. I didn't create this thread, nor am I the only one pointing out frustration on how they choose to communicate (or not) with us.

You're of course entitled to your opinion. Just keep in mind post #81 is all I'm saying.

Quote:

Quote: Your intentions or plans for something has absolutely no bearing on wether you are more or less entitled to owning it. Try again. Go to the US PTO site, read up a bit on protecting your trademarks, then read about Hyperion's papers showing usage of a particular trademark. Usage of trademarks or non-usage over time are factors.

Past usage or non-usage is far from the same thing as intentions or plans for the future. Again, your intentions or plans for something has absolutely no bearing on wether you are more or less entitled to owning it.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Quote:

As a watcher, you don't get to decide who plays or who wins. If the team you support scores, good for you. If they don't, tough.

First you should acknowledge that people DO talk about who wins or not, what should be different what would be their strategy, yada yada... everyone's is a couch trainee after all, second I find it strange that you while pretending to talk from above, do no less then what you criticize...

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @stew Did Amiga Washington legally (truly legally) sell/transfer the right? Thats for a court to decide. You've already decided it seems. But all we truly know is that a different entity than Amiga Delaware is who spent $5 million. You can say thats "NOT Hyperion", but its NOT Amiga Delaware either. What they spent, if anything is unknown to us. The legal question is before a court on whether is got transfered away legally, or if it did not. Officers of corporations have fiduciary responsibilities, and typically its not a matter as you put it to bestow or bequeath it to "whomever they wish", especially owing debts. Then on the moral question, well anyone for this "we shed all our debts but moved our assets away" situation I have to shake my head at.

Well we are getting closer to the point of the quote but not quite there. If the transfer was not legal, ( btw many of us called it a shell game to hide assets and avoid paying debts ie. Tronman. We were called trolls at the time for having that opinion) it does not give the ip to hyperion. The ip should go to the owner of AInc Wa
assets. If that is found to be Tronman great for him. It is NOT Hyperion any more than you me or Bill Buck! They have no right to ip ownership in the contract. So some one paid alot for this ip and they want to defend it. Reguardless if the right person is the current incantation of AInc I repaet it is NOT Hyperion.

@stew

There's one thing they might have right, and I think that is the only thing in dispute...





AMIGAOS

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@samface

Quote:

"We" don't choose these things. Besides, you're not even "dealing" with them either. The situation is more like watching a game of hockey/football/soccer/whatever. As a watcher, you don't get to decide who plays or who wins. If the team you support scores, good for you. If they don't, tough.

Sure, no consumer campaign ever impacted any company decision, policy, or action in the history of man right? Lol.

Quote:

I mean, how do you know ACube attempted?

From communications provided to the court that show communication from Acube to Amiga to intially inquire on licensing.

Quote:

So now you want proof all of a sudden?

I'll take that as an admittal that you only want others to have proof but not yourself.

Quote:

Should I interpret that as that you are retracting your claim that Amiga Inc. would only want to put the AmigaOS IP in the IP vault?

What do you not get about the meaning of the word "likely" in a stated opinion of one individual? I know it makes for more dramatic posting when you get bored but anyone can read the original post from me.

Quote:

Past usage or non-usage is far from the same thing as intentions or plans for the future. Again, your intentions or plans for something has absolutely no bearing on wether you are more or less entitled to owning it.

Just bear in mind the last time you were wrong on US law. Read the site. I'm not claiming to be a trademark expert, but it is plain to see that there are circumstances in which trademark holders need to proactively protect said trademarks and there are ways to lose rights associated with them. Hence why Hyperion is using this angle partially in their latest round of documents it would seem. I'm not the judge, but a common layman reaction of "well they own it, no one should be able to mess with that right" is not accurate (assuming for a second Amiga Delaware even holds the rights properly).

Quote:

Do you realize how hollow your arguments seems now when you interpret everything I say as direct claims to know the facts while your statements would just be "sharing opinions of possibilities"?

LOL. thats rich, considering you are the one all bent out of shape over me sharing an opinion of thinking something is likely based on my own interpretations and even using the word "likely" and litering many of my posts with IMOs and IMHOs. You disagree, get over it.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 30-Jul-2007 at 10:38 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@stew

Quote:

stew wrote: Well we are getting closer to the point of the quote but not quite there. If the transfer was not legal, ( btw many of us called it a shell game to hide assets and avoid paying debts ie. Tronman. We were called trolls at the time for having that opinion) it does not give the ip to hyperion. The ip should go to the owner of AInc Wa assets. If that is found to be Tronman great for him. It is NOT Hyperion any more than you me or Bill Buck! They have no right to ip ownership in the contract. So some one paid alot for this ip and they want to defend it. Reguardless if the right person is the current incantation of AInc I repaet it is NOT Hyperion.

The particular IP asset, Amiga OS, part of Amiga Washington's IP is the question. Its about the perpetual license Hyperion would have if Amiga Washington went insolvent. Hyperion claims they now believe this to have happened. I don't find it odd for them to fight for the perpetual license in the contract in regard to this single asset. I agree they should not own all Amiga Washington's IP and I don't see any judge doing that IMO. Its worth peanuts in the current IT world as I see it but at least maybe it could help with a little bit of debt Bolton still might have. I think the phrase from Ben back then is out of place, because I don't see any total IP grab attempt, or even if they were, them ever getting it. So I see the phrase, in light of the current situation to be apples and oranges. They want their perpetual license to "AmigaOS", I don't think Ben's statement is the "gotcha" from something he said prior that some people seem to be making it out to be. If he really is going for a full IP grab then shame on him and in that case it would be worth throwing back at him I agree.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 30-Jul-2007 at 10:53 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @stew The particular IP asset, Amiga OS, part of Amiga Washington's IP is the question. Its about the perpetual license Hyperion would have if Amiga Washington went insolvent. Hyperion claims they now believe this to have happened. I don't find it odd for them to fight for the perpetual license in the contract in regard to this single asset. I agree they should not own all Amiga Washington's IP and I don't see any judge doing that IMO. Its worth peanuts in the current IT world as I see it but at least maybe it could help with a little bit of debt Bolton still might have. I think the phrase from Ben back then is out of place, because I don't see any total IP grab attempt, or even if they were, them ever getting it. So I see the phrase, in light of the current situation to be apples and oranges. They want their perpetual license to "AmigaOS", I don't think Ben's statement is the "gotcha" from something he said prior that some people seem to be making it out to be. If he really is going for a full IP grab then shame on him and in that case it would be worth throwing back at him I agree.

Ok I totaly agree that the only agument that Hyperion has at all is the "insolvency" clause. Everything else is just to muddy the waters. I agree that the only thing that needs a ruling is did Ainc W go "insolvent"? Of course this means that a legal definition needs to be made as well as a ruling as to the legality of such a clause in US law. I guess the one area we disagree is I seee the attempt to take OS4 for themselves as an ip grab. Tronman would in my mind come before Hyperion in any distribution of assets due to insolvency.
I never made the statement out as a gotcha ( I think Hermans statements on the buyback fills that bill) but it does indicate even he thinks people are entitled to defend their ip and AInc owned AOS4. The people that formed AInc W thought so much of Amiga ip that they paid millions, Hyperion thought so little they signed a contract with a clause:
"Amiga Inc. has an option to buy the OS 4 intellectual property at a fixed fee. Hence they can retake control of the OS (source-code and all) whenever they feel like it.
If they fail to do something with it within a certain amount of time, our right to develop the OS further is revived" (Ben Hermans April 2002)

Rather telling to me. Of course they may have thought highly of OS4 and thought of this as an oppurtunity to grab it. No they don't appear that smart after looking at the contract they signed.

Last edited by stew on 31-Jul-2007 at 12:08 AM.

@PhantomInterrogative

Quote:

I just do not think the owners of Amiga should be a games porting company).

Why not the Amiga was the world's best game machine for many years and who know more about multimedia and cool graphics than a gaming company who still understands the spirit of the machine enough to recreate it on other hardware.

Do you really want a "licensing bureau" running the show that does nothing else, but absorbs the profits and tries to stay in control? Honestly it doesn't nothing but break down the community further and suck it dry.

And what's all of this whooey about AmigaOS becoming and embedded OS. Who would buy it as such? I certainly don't want it controlling my car. Would be horrible to get a grim reaper in the middle of I-696 here in Detroit. I'd really be seeing him for real. What do I do go out and reboot into Turrican?

Come on folks, when processors are relagated to embedded hardware, it usually means the end of their commercial lifetime is near..

Maybe a few more revisions it will be OS/9 (the Microwave Oven OS)..

Last edited by DonnieA2 on 31-Jul-2007 at 01:44 AM.
Last edited by DonnieA2 on 31-Jul-2007 at 01:43 AM.

@billt

Quote:

billt wrote: Realize that Amiga Inc. are now in their lawsuit with Hyperion claiming that what we know as the AmigaOne is not a licensed product for that name. Amiga didn't make it, they allowed it to be made. Sortof. Until the recent lawsuit.

Thats not what it says, we have discussed this a bunch of times since the lawsuit started. The remark has to do with the Acube agreement and the Acube agreement only. Its about Teron boards bought at an auction and the rumored flow of them (illegally) into the amiga community, thats all.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @Tigger Tell that to Kent. Lets hope they really do and are using the $2.5 million for AOS 5 now instead.

There is a big difference between how much Hyperion has and 2.5M.

Quote:

Sure, got to town. Maybe both sides will try to get to a negotiating table then instead of court.

Oh no, Ben will fight till he loses then fight some more.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @stew The particular IP asset, Amiga OS, part of Amiga Washington's IP is the question. Its about the perpetual license Hyperion would have if Amiga Washington went insolvent. Hyperion claims they now believe this to have happened. I don't find it odd for them to fight for the perpetual license in the contract in regard to this single asset.

Hyperion is so screwed over with the 2003 contract, I dont think this matters anymore. AI(W) insolvency (even if it occurred and could be proven) doesnt get Hyperion out of the delivery to Itec situation, thats the problem with there entire tact. They owe Itec the OS, period. To deliver what they are on the hook for they need to pay developers about a million dollars, thats alot for a PPC OS that runs on a POS Teron board an not much else with an installed base of about 1000. Hyperion has spent over 1000 dollars per person running OS4, thats not a good number when the OS sells for 1/10 of that, and the costs just keep going up and the installed base seems to be getting smaller. There latest gasp seems to be to claim they are Amiga (or at least the owner of the trademarks), thats not going to work, I dont believe even a munchkin like Ben believes thats going to happen, but ask for 1000 things and maybe they will get one of them seems to be there tact.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Tigger

There's those who are owed the moon, of course they will have to have a piece of it somewhere in the future...

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga