@Darrin

Quote:

Darrin wrote: The reason oil costs $120 a barrel is because the people demand it and keep on demanding it in even greater quantities. Oil companies don't set the price, the market does bases on supply and demand. Yes, there should be more investment in renewable energy sources, but it is your givernments that should be doing that with the massive tax revenues that they take from the oil companies which dwarfs their profits.

I think part of the problem is a refining capacity and there haven't been any refineries built in the last 20 years and if you want to build one today, someone will complain about the smell and say,"not in my back yard".

I do think that the price of oil is set by OPEC and investors. OPEC wants to keep the output so that the supply doesn't equal demand and the investors are using news events to set the price.

@SpaceDruid

Cars must be either intentionally made or converted to use ethanol. It has a higher burn temperature, and cars are damaged through electric and chemical corrosion. Even existing E10 fuel used in gasoline engines renders some damage to automobile components.

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@logicalheart

Electric damage because of ethanol? Where do you get that from? And ethanol cleans the engine,something gasoline does not. Means it's better for your engine. I've tried e85 on my car with some electronics not working. One can easily convert an petrol car to ethanol(e85) just add a fuelpressure regulator and add bigger injection(not sure for the english word,dyse in norwegian). Need this since when using ethanol you use more fuel. And you get more power,so ethanol is popular in tuning comunities.

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@Chuckt

Your remarks about refineries is correct. Nobody want's them in their back yard unless they can actually work there (I live next to a refinery and they provide highly paid jobs with excellent benefits). Also, less companies are willing to build them in the West as operating prices thanks to increasing HES rules and regulations means that they're not worth the trouble.

OPEC does have an impact, but only so far and it is made up by oil producing governments and not oil producing companies. Also, they can't always agree with each other. Traditionally Saudi Arabia likes to increase supply why lowers prices while Iran likes to limit supply to increase prices.

I can assure you that oil companies would be happy if oil was around $70 a barrel.

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@Antique

Not damage to electric components, but damage from electricity through galvanic corrosion because of the conductive property of ethanol. My response was to the posting that ethanol was "more than a match for oil" without any vehicle modification. You don't go to E100 unless the car was made for it, or you do a conversion. And then yes, you get more horsepower and your fuel efficiency plummets.

Last edited by logicalheart on 09-May-2008 at 11:01 PM.

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@Antique

Quote:

Electric damage because of ethanol?

I think he means "galvanic corrosion", the sort of corrosion you get from dissimilar metals in contact with a conductive liquid. It's a real problem in cars that were designed for use with oily fuels like gasonline or diesel, since those fuels are non-conductive.

Put a conductive, ionised liquid like ethanol into the mixture and you will get corrosion. Here in Australia we are limited by law to 10% ethanol, and although I don't agree with it, it was limited so that car manufacturers could continue to use cheap materials in their fuel systems.

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@Interesting

With all due respect many states are suing and filing charges and arresting people for using home brewed fuel and fuel making aparatuses, because you don't pay any of the state and federal fuel taxes normally charged on fuel from other sources.

The one guy who publicized himself doing this with used cooking oil was arrested and went to jail for it. So it's my suspect feeling that the state(s) and/or federal government will do the same with others for avoiding fuel taxes..

@Antique

Quote:

Electric damage because of ethanol? Where do you get that from? And ethanol cleans the engine,something gasoline does not. Means it's better for your engine. I've tried e85 on my car with some electronics not working.

I run my car on e85 and it runs great.....but the car came new designed to run e85.

Quote:

One can easily convert an petrol car to ethanol(e85) just add a fuelpressure regulator and add bigger injection(not sure for the english word,dyse in norwegian.

I wouldn't go in this direction unless the car company came out with the kit. I do believe many of the seals will break down on ethanol. So be real careful

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@Darrin

Quote:

With all due respect, you have no idea how expensive it is to explore the sea and drill an oil well, let alone produce it,

I have a North Sea oil pipeline running under my back garden. 12 of my schoolfriends (As well as my father) work in the oil industry and I am a shareholder in 2 of the biggest oil companies in the western world.

I do have a very good idea indeed of how much it costs to drill for the stuff and yes, I stand by my statement. Oil companies DO make excessive profits. Thats why I invest in them.

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@Darrin
Quote:

The reason oil costs $120 a barrel is because the people demand it and keep on demanding it in even greater quantities. Oil companies don't set the price, the market does bases on supply and demand. Yes, there should be more investment in renewable energy sources, but it is your givernments that should be doing that with the massive tax revenues that they take from the oil companies which dwarfs their profits.

S&D is not the sole factor. One other is that oil is pegged to the US$ and the US$ is losing it's value. Oil has gone up a bit but the dollar has fallen more. Subsequently it takes more US$ to buy oil. As for Supply it's controlled by the oil companies and through this they set the price.

The US gives $75B/year in tax breaks for oil. It's a mature industry. There is NO reason to give the industry any breaks. Lock these down and turn that investment into immature industries, renewables for example. This in turn would bring other fuel sources on line as competition to Big Oil. An active market with more companies and more types of consumables better controls, read lowers, prices for consumers.

@BrianK

I think it's all hillarious when we haven't opened a new refinery in the USA in OVER 20 years.. They haven't ever upped production capacity either.. The pricing is based on speculation on futures and how much they think they can get per barrel. Something needs to be done to bring things back in line..

I saw in popular science where you can make oil and natural gas from anything with hydrocarbons. That is just about anything. Apparently it does not cost more to make than what it creates.

Oil companies are out there to make money. Just like everyone else. It is funny how when gas prices go up, so do their profits. Also, I find it interesting that other things go up that have nothing to do with oil. Synthetic oil goes up when oil goes up. Why? Natural gas here after a mild winter a year ago, went up. Why? Everyone uses it as an excuse to raise the price for any products. It is all money driven greed.

The price at the pump goes up at first mention of a barrel of oil going up. Yet on the few occasions it goes down, there is the excuse that it will take awhile before that oil hits the pumps. It is unfortunatly all about greed.

It will not be long before the United States becomes a third world country with the polititions we have, the fact that all our jobs are going over seas and everyone gouging the middle class. Oh, and there are no better polititions to come either. I took a survey that was supposed to show who would be my best candidate. My highest was 40% and was tied between a Republican, a Democrat, and a Liberatarian. That just showed me how usless my vote is. I dont think the rest of the world really understands that every choice we make for a candidate is a disaster. All we can do is vote for the one that will cause the least amount of damage to our own country, but you can't tell which one it really is, because they are all a bunch of liars. Of all the billions of people, why do we have such lousey choices? When we do make a choice, then all the world tells us what idiots we are for electing them, but believe it or not, we really do not have any better choice.

@nzv58l

Quote:

When we do make a choice, then all the world tells us what idiots we are for electing them, but believe it or not, we really do not have any better choice.

Out of any western country, the US of A has the best choice out of anyone. You are all allowed to carry your weapons of the revolution legaly and you have powerful members of your government ensureing you keep that right (Though their motivation is money).

Ad to that the fact you endlessly go on about being free men and celebrate rountinely you historical action when you kicked out the last government that tried pushing your citizens too far.

No US of A. You have choices. You choose not to make them.

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@SpaceDruid

Well, again with respect, I work for an oil company and I disagree. One of us is wrong and I'm looking at you. I have electricity lines and telephone lines in my back garden and I know squat about the costs of providing telecommunications and electricity to the world. I have stocks it lots of comapnies, but I don't know their operating overheads. My father was a manager at a papermill, but I haven't got a clue how to make and market paper. I do know what it costs to locate, extract and produce oil reserves and don't. You'd probably sell your shares if you saw what we have spent on this project in 2 years (and we're still making a daily loss).

Also, while you can dream about alternative energy sources, you're just dreaming because until the price of fuel goes up tenfold then no bugger is going to do anything serious about it. People are bloody lazy. Down here in Brazil they are self sufficient when it comes to oil production because most cars can use natural gas, ethanol or gasoline (or a combination of them with natural gas and gasoline in the same vehicle being the most common).

Oil burning power stations are the biggest wasters in my opinion. When I worked in Egypt there was a massive wind farm between our shorebase and Cairo. Lots of windmills lined up on a piece of land where you could see nothing but sand. We need to find areas like than and cover them in windmills.

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Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Darrin [quote]As for Supply it's controlled by the oil companies and through this they set the price.

No it isn't, unless they are state run and then it is dictated by their respective governments. The private major oil companies try and extract as much oil as they can and sell it as quickly as they can to recover costs.

Quote:

The US gives $75B/year in tax breaks for oil. It's a mature industry. There is NO reason to give the industry any breaks.

Yes there is and New Orleans has already suffered as a result of what you suggest.

Oil companies spend a lot of money on local service companies and the people and businesses who rely on them. That accounts for a hell of a lot more money than they make in profits which goes into the local economy so a government makes cash 2 ways from Big Oil: Direct taxes on their income and revenue generated from taxes paid by everyone connected to the oil sector (income tax, sales tax, property tax, licences, permits, etc).

New Orleans decided to reduce the tax break given to oil companies to make more money. The result was that everyone packed up their bags and moved to Houston. And when the oil companies moved then so did the support companies. The net result for New Orleans was a massive loss of revenue, increased unemployment and vacant office blocks.

If you force all States to play the same game and fix the rates then the Oil Companies will move their headquarters to another country (after all, they are global).

This goes for all businesses, not just oil.

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Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: No US of A. You have choices. You choose not to make them.

Quoted for truth.

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@Darrin

Quote:

Quote: As for Supply it's controlled by the oil companies and through this they set the price. No it isn't, unless they are state run and then it is dictated by their respective governments. The private major oil companies try and extract as much oil as they can and sell it as quickly as they can to recover costs.

I disagree. There's LOTS of oil under the arctic but relatively few wells there. There are lots of oil in the Montana, North Dakota area and while fast growing there are few wells there. Our planet has not reached the saturation point where extracting oil is the only option. Controlling the build rates of extraction plants, processing plants, and transportation again are items companies can leverage to help set the price of oil. There clearly is a variety of ways companies control supply.

Quote:

Oil companies spend a lot of money on local service companies and the people and businesses who rely on them. That accounts for a hell of a lot more money than they make in profits which goes into the local economy so a government makes cash 2 ways from Big Oil: Direct taxes on their income and revenue generated from taxes paid by everyone connected to the oil sector (income tax, sales tax, property tax, licences, permits, etc).

Yup and again a government should not be funding a mature industry (well unless one tends towards fascism). The government should be ensuring a free market. Part of this insurance is investing in those ventures which companies refuse to due to short sightedness and small chance of profits. Doing so expands the market, increases competition, and diversifies the product. If monopolies are bad then driving a market into a highly diverse place is far far bettter.

Quote:

New Orleans decided to reduce the tax break given to oil companies to make more money. The result was that everyone packed up their bags and moved to Houston. And when the oil companies moved then so did the support companies. The net result for New Orleans was a massive loss of revenue, increased unemployment and vacant office blocks.

This is the impact of 1 state or local taking 1 action. Instead of this if all states did the same thing at the same time then the likelihood of the above is far less likely.

Quote:

If you force all States to play the same game and fix the rates then the Oil Companies will move their headquarters to another country (after all, they are global).

If that were to occur we move the point of taxes from corporate income to an import tarriff.

@DonnieA2

Quote:

I think it's all hillarious when we haven't opened a new refinery in the USA in OVER 20 years.. They haven't ever upped production capacity either..

Nope and the USA prob won't see any more additions as the refinery process adds to "Global Warming". Thats the new excuse.

I did some research a while back when a refinery was going to close in Calif. Its all about clean air. So as I understand it we now refine petrol in another country and import it.

On the other side, where this is purely stupid IMHO; why do many of the East coast homes (USA) heat by burning Oil?

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@Darren
and quote THIS for truth. The UK's 24th richest man this year as owner of Scotland's only oil refinery.

His workers (people like YOU I assume) recently went on strike because the greedy bugger decided he needed MORE personal wealth and scrapped their pension schemes (which were in their original contract terms). The total savings he hoped to make from this? £3m, for robbing his hard workers of security in their old age! Total cost to the public purse? £1m in oil sales taxes alone PER HOUR of the 24 hour strike. £24 million in total - just in taxes and 50m per day in other related lost revenue.

This is a single example of the oil industry's (led by OPEC) TOTAL greed and lack of social conscious right now. They know they have the world held to ransom, pretty much at gun-point, and they're making the most of it, in collusion with governments (who they basically purchase and bribe). That's the long and short of it and it's a nightmare scenario to have these vampires dictating global economic stability and the future of individuals whom they are effecting indirectly on a daily basis with increasing detrimental effects.

And you defend these people? Shame on you.

Last edited by hatty on 10-May-2008 at 09:42 PM.