@Interesting

Quote:

Interesting wrote: @Dandy .... This will help you: "...This is your backyard and Germany has many dealings with Russia. ... Member countries in the EU should make sure the standard “containment domes” are used within EU members, or shut down. Do you agree?" ...

Can you tell me please since when Russia is a member of the EU?
Must have missed that...

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@BrianK

50 million satelite images acording to another story - anyone want to quibble about the dearth of data on the matter of thinning? That video we looked at called it deflation. If an ice stream thins sufficiently will ice start flowing in from the sides where it is not constrained by rock either side?

By definition a glacier flows through a fiord and is constrained by rock - in the case of the Byrd glacier in the antarctic the outlet valley is about 160 km long and 24 km wide.
An ice stream is only constrained by ice either side.

Noel

@Dandy

Quote:

Member countries in the EU should make sure the standard “containment domes” are used within EU members, or shut down. Do you agree?" Can you tell me please since when Russia is a member of the EU?

No matter how he tried, he could not break free.
And the worms ate into his brain.

_________________
"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@NoelFuller

If people want to read the research relating to the satellite images : http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature08471.html

@Interesting

Quote:

Interesting wrote: @Dandy Quote: Member countries in the EU should make sure the standard “containment domes” are used within EU members, or shut down. Do you agree?" Can you tell me please since when Russia is a member of the EU? No matter how he tried, he could not break free. And the worms ate into his brain.

You're riddling...

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@BrianK

I've been expecting someone to point out the obvious answer to my question:
Quote:

If an ice stream thins sufficiently will ice start flowing in from the sides where it is not constrained by rock either side?

Simply, if the ice stream is not fed it will stop flowing. What we have are ice streams that are speeding up, probably because restraints at the output end have been eroded by warming sea. If that is all then there would be a reasonable expectation that the ice stream would eventually stabilise. The authors and others have said the hoped for stabilisation scenarios have not happened. So what is happening to the ice streams; as they thin do they extend further back? Does the ice either side get thinner? Does the volume of ice entering the sea exceed replacement?

If part of sea-level rise is due to glaciers from the ice-caps, as in Greenland and Antarctica, then mass balance is not being maintained. We have known for a while that this is the case with Greenland, but the theory has been otherwise with Antarctica, particularly East Antarctica. I have read of thinning of the ice-sheet around the Pine Island glacier (PIG) in the West Antarctic Ice Sheet (WAIS), but seen no numbers yet. Nor have measurements been made as far back along the PIG as it may extend according to the last report I read.

Noel

Green roofs as carbon sinks

http://esciencenews.com/articles/2009/09/23/green.roofs.may.help.put.lid.global.warming

Over two years several green roofs in USA have been studied as potential carbon sinks - verdict: pretty good!

I've only experienced one such roof personally and can vouch for the high level of insulation offered plus the slowing of storm water run-off. Has anyone here experience of green roofs?

Noel

UNEP Climate Change Science Compendium 2009

Rather than wait years for another full report nations wanted a year by year snapshot of peer reviewed literature and research on climate change - some 400 papers. It's worth a serious read:

Quote:

The Compendium is not a consensus document or an update of any other process. Instead, it is a presentation of some exciting scientific findings, interpretations, ideas, and conclusions that have emerged among scientists.

It can be downloaded in full (4.844 MB) or chapter by chapter from here:
http://www.unep.org/compendium2009/

Noel

"The New Sputnik"

OpEd article in NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/opinion/27friedman.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

A take on China's go-ahead on ET - [clean] Energy Technology.
From all the straws in the wind, It seems to me that China is going at this, full on. The political BS at conferences is mainly about provoking actual movement from USA. Perhaps the reality is that no-one with any sense is going to wait on USA, whatever they say at conferences, I hope so.

From where I am I see a statesman and visionary in the White House for the first time in decades, we can actually understand what he says, a great relief, but I can't help thinking of Mikhail Gorbachev while leader of the Soviet Union. At some event he was taken to task, privately, for back pedalling on some important initiative. He replied, "I was surrounded!"

Noel

@NoelFuller

Quote:

Perhaps the reality is that no-one with any sense is going to wait on USA,

Early signs are up to 40% of the world's power will be produced by renewables by 2050. If a nation decides to not invest in these the result will be they will not see as large ROI.

It's sad the USA puts a larger amount of money into mature technologies, oil and coal, than it does for new technologies. What this results in is market manipulation where it appears the 'old' is more cost effective than the 'new'. What's really happening is the true costs of 'old' are hidden from the consumer. We pay it in taxes and per watt instead of just per watt.

France sees this problem too. Nuclear power is 'cheap' so it's claimed. Yet in the #s they provide they include direct costs to citizens but fail to deal with the additional costs of the government accountanting office bills for handling of waste. Again they pay it in taxes, or borrow it, but it appears cheap to the consumer because their power bill doesn't carry all costs, a large part are hidden.

Not much melting of ice at Antarctica this year: http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/S_timeseries.png

@Tomas

Interesting graph. Ice extent differs from ice area while thickness is something else entirely. Have you seen the video, taken in Antarctic sea ice, of Orca teaching their young how to collectively create waves to wash sea lions off ice floes? After a demonstration the elders put the sea lion back on the floe so the young could have a go.

It is expected that Antarctic Sea Ice Extent will go on expanding for some time. I have already commented on this twice in this thread. The strongest candidate theory has it that the increasing polar wind (due to warming though it is still mighty cold) forces the sea ice away from the ice shelves leaving a gap in which new ice can form. There is even a name for this gap but I forget it.

A graph needs some discussion to put it in context. NSIDC FAQ here:
http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/faq.html#antarctic
A graph showing the gradual increase in extent is 3/4 down this page:
http://nsidc.org/sotc/sea_ice.html

A friend of mine spends half her time aship in the southern ocean. A couple of years back she presented to our Amiga club a fascinating first hand view of the sea ice after a winter amongst it with a shipload of scientists measuring it. Her job included making sure they got back to the ship before shock waves propagating from some marauding ice berg broke up the ice under them. We understood then that reports would show ice growing slightly in winter extent, the models predict it. This sea ice melts in summer, unlike some Arctic sea ice.

Many New Zealanders are very conscious of the Antarctic, though the sea insulates us, unlike on continents. We had a lot of wind from Antarctica this last winter and now we are in the period where the ozone hole is dangerous to us - September to April. Weather forcasts during this period often include maximum exposure times to UV, expressed in minutes. Skin cancers are a long term consequence of over exposure. Ozone is a powerful greenhouse gas so the hole, expected eventually to close, currently contributes slightly to East Antarctic cooling.

Noel

@BrianK

Quote:

Again they pay it in taxes, or borrow it, but it appears cheap to the consumer because their power bill doesn't carry all costs, a large part are hidden.

You make some good points.

Paying the true cost while at the same time providing some benefit to the poor and to the innovative struggling to cope with the consequences of climate change, is what a well run ETS is about.

I confess I have been rather scathing about ETS in the past. USA initiated the process, I'm told, via Kyoto then withdrew leaving the EEC to figure it out. At first they scattered carbon credits among the big emitters effectively giving them licence to grow emissions at taxpayers expense. Nevertheless more disciplined processes evolved from 2005. Now the EEC is having a row about it because a court has ruled that the EEC can't, under existing law, govern the way member nations distribute carbon credits - the chief fly in the ointment is Poland sitting on very large reserves of coal. Poland wants the old way of hiding the costs. Unless they get round this to prevent abuses an international scheme, with US participation for one, can't come about.

Our own government owned by the big emitters is going down this road so taxes will rise to pay for carbon while the big emitters remain unrestrained for as long as they can get away with it. The prime minister throws the word "balance" around for justification meaning balancing the prospect of re-election against the need to do something about carbon emissions, though he argues that he is keeping household costs down as far as possible. To get the appearance of an ETS without the substance they did a deal with a minor party and sacrificed the greater assurance of a more stable agreement. They evidently believe they will win the next election for a second term before the electorate actually realise who is paying the hidden costs. Meanwhile the prime minister tries to make stiring speeches at the UN. at least he keeps them short which is to his credit.

Noel

Last edited by NoelFuller on 28-Sep-2009 at 01:20 AM.

@NoelFuller

Quote:

NoelFuller wrote: @BrianK I've been expecting someone to point out the obvious answer to my question: Quote: If an ice stream thins sufficiently will ice start flowing in from the sides where it is not constrained by rock either side? Simply, if the ice stream is not fed it will stop flowing. What we have are ice streams that are speeding up, probably because restraints at the output end have been eroded by warming sea.

Well, from the last time when we had enough snow and I built a snowman, I can remember that the snowman slowly changed its shape when the wheather became warmer in the course of the days.

Its height started shrinking, while its diameter at the bottom became bigger and bigger. It seemed to "flow apart", until it was just a flat accumulation (and finally completely melted).


When I was still at school, our physics teacher once performed an experiment with a bar of ice. He plugged it half way through a springe made from thin wire and put each end of the ice bar on a table edge. Finally he fixed a weight at the springe below the ice bar.

Before the lesson was over the wire of the springe cut through the ice bar and it fell to the floor with the weight, with the ice bar remaining intact. The weight exerted such a force onto the ice bar through the wire, that the ice molt below the wire by the surface pressure and it could sink into the icebar a little bit deeper, while the molten water immediately froze again above the wire, as the ice block was cold enough.


So I would think it is perfectly possible that the antarctic ice sheet seems to be expanding to all directions, while it is becoming thin and thinner, before it is entirely molten...

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@NoelFuller
Quote:

Interesting graph. Ice extent differs from ice area while thickness is something else entirely. Have you seen the video, taken in Antarctic sea ice, of Orca teaching their young how to collectively create waves to wash sea lions off ice floes? After a demonstration the elders put the sea lion back on the floe so the young could have a go.

Drilling tests also shows thickening of ice in many areas though. I think it is pretty safe to say that Antarctica is gaining and not losing ice currently. Warming and thinning of ice has only been seen in some parts of Antarctica and that is sadly only what is reported in mainstream news these days.

@Tomas

Quote:

Drilling tests also shows thickening of ice in many areas though. I think it is pretty safe to say that Antarctica is gaining and not losing ice currently. Warming and thinning of ice has only been seen in some parts of Antarctica and that is sadly only what is reported in mainstream news these days

The question is how is this all happening and where. Just because ice is growing does not mean the temperature is colder. In fact the opposite is likely true.

Warmer air holds more moisture. So if we change the average temp from -50C to say -40C the air should contain more moisture. Wouldn't there be more water vapor in the air which to freeze? Therefore shouldn't we see ice growing?

Looking at the records in Minnesota it appears our winters are getting warmer faster than our summers. If Antarctica is the same likely we'll see the condition I describe above.

Looks like More Water Vapor Woes For Climate Modelers.

_________________
Dammy

@BrianK
Either way the ice is increasing while media is claiming otherwise. Afaik it is mainly only Antarctic Peninsula that has warmed anyways. Other parts of Antarctica shows mostly normal temperatures and some areas even show a bit of cooling.
Quote:

Looking at the records in Minnesota it appears our winters are getting warmer faster than our summers. If Antarctica is the same likely we'll see the condition I describe above.

Same trend here in Norway.. Summers are not that much warmer but winters have in general been getting milder over the last few decades.
I expect the trend to turn around now that sun is inactive.
Northern Norway and high altitude regions have already experienced a drop in temperatures for the last few years.
I guess we have to wait a few years to see if it is the new trend or if it is just weather.

Some nice graphs from a weather station in northern norway:
Summer temps
Winter temps
Yearly temps

Last edited by Tomas on 28-Sep-2009 at 05:22 PM.
Last edited by Tomas on 28-Sep-2009 at 05:21 PM.

@Tomas

Quote:

Either way the ice is increasing while media is claiming otherwise.

Really? Interesting. Here I see more news that Antarctic ice is increasing.

Quote:

Summers are not that much warmer but winters have in general been getting milder over the last few decades. I expect the trend to turn around now that sun is inactive.

Do you mean active?

Thanks for the interesting graphs.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Tomas Quote: Either way the ice is increasing while media is claiming otherwise. Really? Interesting. Here I see more news that Antarctic ice is increasing. Quote: Summers are not that much warmer but winters have in general been getting milder over the last few decades. I expect the trend to turn around now that sun is inactive. Do you mean active? Thanks for the interesting graphs.

hehe.. That is not what i would call ac tive The sunspots are already fading away again anyways and solar flux is nearly flat again. Even Nasa thinks this cycle will peak at around 80-90ssn which is a very weak cycle compared to previous ones. Cycle 25 is predicted to be very weak as well.
I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens.