Hi,

First some introductions. I'm Konstantinos Margaritis, a long time Amiga/BeOS/Linux user/developer and a PowerPC fan, former Debian Developer, also a SIMD/AltiVec fanatic and the author of libfreevec. I haven't posted before on this forum but I lurk on the #haiku channel as markos_. Anyway, I've posted this on the MorphOS/Haiku forums and I think it would be right to post it here as well. To anyone who is not a PowerPC user, it might seem like crazy, but here it goes:

I'm considering funding the design & production of a new PowerPC system (well, the motherboard, the rest are typical pc stuff and a case). No this is not a joke, I've been wanting to do this for a long time, and perhaps the chance will be given to me now. But before I spend any money on this, I want to do a little market research first. I know the market is literally "dying" for a new powerpc motherboard, but exactly how many are there that want to buy one?

Ok, let's give some rough specs first. I'm considering 3 choices -not in order of probability/importance:

1. MPC8640D-based. It will be dual core at 1Ghz -most likely, higher frequencies are much more expensive and the cost of the final board would be prohibitive.
2. MPC8610-based. Single core at 1Ghz, slightly less expensive, and includes a 2D DIU display unit -quite fast, but no 3D unfortunately.
3. QorIQ P1022-based. Again dual core at 1Ghz (1055Mhz to be precise). Apart from the much lower chip price, this one includes dual gigabit ethernet, dual SATA, USB 2.0 and a 2D DIU display unit (same as the MPC8610). So this one would lower the cost of the board quite much. Disadvantages: No AltiVec unit (it sucks I know), though it includes an SPE unit which is not that bad, and availability will be in Q3/Q4 2010, so that's a long wait.

Now, the end motherboard will probably be MicroATX (in the 8640D/8610 case) or PicoITX (in the P1022 case), and it will definitely include:

* SATA connectors
* USB (possibly 2 back and 2 front, but that's discussable)
* Dual gigabit (at least one will be there, in the case of the MPC8640D we might even have 4!!!)
* Sound (of course, SPDIF support will definitely be there)
* 1 PCI-e slot 1x
* 1 PCI-e slot (4x in the P1022 case, 8x in the MPC86xx cases)

Ok, what I want to know is if people would really really buy one of these. End price is estimated to be ~around~ 350EUR for the P1022 board or ~500EUR (definitely more in the case of 8640D) in the case of the other boards. Besides being more expensive, the MPC86xx chips, don't include SATA, USB and only one of ethernet/sound (quad-gige in MPC8640D case, or sound in the case of MPC8610). I know this sounds a lot, but it's the reality, there is not enough funding to build enormous amounts of units and bring the prices down substantially, we have to start low and build up from there. In case you are wondering, yes, the boards will be designed/produced by bPlan and funded by my company (Codex).

About AmigaOS support, well, I am not a user myself, but I would seriously consider funding it, if there was enough interest. If just a couple of users would be interested then the best thing I would do is send a working board to the AmigaOS developers. the same goes for other OSes. But I will definitely fund the Haiku porting, because I like it and I think it has a lot of future.

I would like to make a list of everyone that is really interested in such a system, so it would really help me make a decision sooner rather than later if you would send me a few personal details to markos@codex.gr with subject "PowerPC board":

* Name
* Country
* email (definitely, I'd have to reach you back!)
* Phone/Skype (optional, please include international prefix)
* Forum you saw this post (ok, Amigaworld in this case)
* OS of preference
* board you would be most interested in (MPC8610/MPC8640D/P1022)
* preferred price (please have in mind the estimated price quotes I mentioned, it might be lower but that's not very probable)
* Other notes/comments

I'm not filthy rich, and I'm not doing this out of a hobby, if I'm going to invest this money, I want to know that I will make a profit out of it).

Thanks a lot for your time and I hope this system becomes a reality.

Konstantinos Margaritis
Codex

@feanor

You are talking about new PowerPC-motherboards based on Freescale CPUs? That would be great, and we need new hardwares!

My suggestion is that you should get into contact with Hyperion Entertainment immerdiately about your plans and bring up a huge team to speed up your project!

This is must-needed! Thank you, and you have my support. I hope everything will goes well with your plans. This is big! You should forward these plans!

_________________
Probably Pegasos 2 G4 1Ghz 1GB DDR-system, ATI Radeon 9250, ESI@Juli PCi-soundcard, all running
AmigaOS 4.1 with latest updates, or a new powerful
Amiga! Fingers crossed!

@feanor

Hi and welcome to Amigaworld.net! I'd first like to thank you for libfreevec, I'd like to try to use it sooner or later for CPU-intensive programs.
Regarding your PPC motherboard project, I find it to be very interesting, but I'd suggest you to first try to contact ACube (http://www.acube-systems.biz/), which are already producing a PPC motherboard running AmigaOS4, they might have been already evaluating to produce such a motherboard, and by collaborating it might help making the project become reality.

Varthall

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AmigaOne XE - AmigaOS 4.1 - Freescale 7457 1GHz - 1GB ram

Hello,

Welcome here As Varthall said, you should first contact Acube / Hyperion / Genesis (the few related companies near AOS4 motherboards and AOS4/MorphOS) and cooperate with them for a new motherboard.

I think if you would like to finance something related to amiga PPC hardware, you will make immediately good friends with this companies

Maybe with your financial help, Acube developments will be greatly speeded up and with talk with hyperion and morphOS team, both OS will run on the same hardware.

For PPC power, you should make hardware with more than 1ghz and PCI-E to be sure all the amiga and morphOS users will baught this new hardware.

For the good processor, I don't have the knowledge to answer you but as a simple user of a SAM667ep, I will be verry happy to buy a more powerfull amiga (for sure) but THE think I like a lot (apart the use of AOS4 and PPC) is the no noise at all with a SAM667EP, It's verry verry great !!!

_________________
BTW, what you have done for the amiga today ????

-A1200+Mediator+VooDoo3+060/50+96mo+SCSI-KIT
-SAM440EP-667mhz-on MapowerKC3000+AOS4.1

Amiga Docs Disks Preservation Project

@feanor

I agree with the other person that also ACube should be contacted, but you might want to talk to Hyperion Entertainment for the AmigaOS support in these new hardwares.

I wish you best of luck and hope it will success

_________________
Probably Pegasos 2 G4 1Ghz 1GB DDR-system, ATI Radeon 9250, ESI@Juli PCi-soundcard, all running
AmigaOS 4.1 with latest updates, or a new powerful
Amiga! Fingers crossed!

@feanor

Welcome!

Although it is not computer for me, I wish you good luck.

@feanor

definetly altivec, and that means the 8610 is a very good candidate.

If we cooperate a little on the peripherals it could theoretically be possible to split the porting costs of OS4, I think.

Make sure the x8 PCIe is in a x16 connector. If you're making a µATX, I'll aim for something smaller

Edit: Btw, I've escape-routed the 8610 in a 4 layer board with signal grouping and GND/PWR planes, akin to what a PC would use. This is one of the reasons why you should go for the 8610. The 8640 requires something like 10 layers to do a good job. Set up a 6 layer project for the 8610 and any monkey can do a good job including DDR2 and PCIe in a week of routing.

Last edited by olegil on 24-Sep-2009 at 09:04 AM.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

I'm sure he and his team will make it, but he needs some financial support, and he really should get into contact with both Hyperion Entertainment and ACube..

Could some of you help pointing him into the right direction?

Welcome aboard, @feanor!

_________________
Probably Pegasos 2 G4 1Ghz 1GB DDR-system, ATI Radeon 9250, ESI@Juli PCi-soundcard, all running
AmigaOS 4.1 with latest updates, or a new powerful
Amiga! Fingers crossed!

@feanor

Hello friend!

Let me me make you a brief summary of the amiga market you wish to enter. AmigaOne [ppc based] sold around 1.000 units and SAMep [ppc based] might have sell until now around 300 units [the last figure is my own estimation based on monitoring international forums, the only one who knows actual figures is ACube but propably they won't tell you since the numbers may be classified].

Right now Amiga [as a name/entity/OS] is under legal dispute by two companies, Hyperion and Amiga Inc. Provided that you actually are able to supply these boards you might face a problem later when deciding porting AmigaOS4.1. This isn't Linux world, to send some boards over at Amiga Devs and wait to port the OS.

After you gather the numbers of Amigans interested in buying your board you must contact Hyperion VOF and pass them your business plan. Good or bad, they are the one in charge and capable of doing the port.

If you want to port the AmigaOS then you must know that the GFX board [if you decide to make it on board] must be a ATI Radeon of specific series. If it will be PCI-E then you must assure that a driver for your board + supporting X Radeon will be made.

You must be absolutely sure that AmigaOS4.1 and/or MorphOS will be ported to your board. Otherwise the figures and estimations you may gather will be irrelevant since I doubt more than 10 amigans will buy a PPC board to run Haiku.

If the price is good for what will you produce I am sure you will easily surpass the numbers of SAMep but I don't know if this is high/good enough for you.

My last comment and thought about this. Enter the Amiga Market only when you are sure you won't lose money! Do not count on amigans, they are keen on crying every time they have to pay 600 euros for a new ppc, ffs. You product -the one cost 350- is better than ACube's is but not good enough. Many will say, the Mhz are lower than many AmigaOnes produced 8 years ago, so they won't buy it. The dual core are good, the price is good but then again AmigaOS and/or MorphOS does not support mulitcores. If you really want the AmigaOne users to upgrade and buy your product then you have to built something better on every aspect than the one they have right now.

Last but not least, always remember that AmigaOS and MorphOS are both HOBBY OSes. The same implies to its users.

Since you are Greek, like me, I highly propose you, you contact also the Greek Amiga Club, Amigahellas [www.amigahellas.gr]

We can provide you with any instructions you may want, surpassing the language barriers when communicating on our mother language.

Ciao,

And, by the way, your nickname reminds me someone I used to know from the past.. :)

Last edited by Cool_amigaN on 24-Sep-2009 at 09:07 AM.

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@olegil

I also would opt for the 8610. AFAIK feanor had some negotiations with bplan already. And they (bplan) have plenty of knowlegs about the 8610 (the Efika 8610 project was actually more than hot air).

_________________
My programs: via.bckrs.de
MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

@Cool_amigaN

Quote:

Let me me make you a brief summary of the amiga market you wish to enter. AmigaOne [ppc based] sold around 1.000 units and SAMep [ppc based] might have sell until now around 300 units [the last figure is my own estimation based on monitoring international forums, the only one who knows actual figures is ACube but propably they won't tell you since the numbers may be classified].

The 300 units might be true, but only related to the OS4 market. It is currently unknown how many units have been sold to industrial costumers.

Varthall

Last edited by Varthall on 24-Sep-2009 at 10:39 AM.

_________________
AmigaOne XE - AmigaOS 4.1 - Freescale 7457 1GHz - 1GB ram

@Varthall

Quote:

It is currently unknown how many units have been sold to industrial costumers.

If ACube actually made it in the industrial market, they would surely drop some news about that, or at least mentioned a partner. So far they haven't, so I guess no big deal from industrial sales for ACube.

_________________
The Rear Window blog

AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

@Varthall

Quote:

It is currently unknown how many units have been sold to industrial costumers

Since industrial customers don't have any advantage using expensive custom PowerPC boards I doubt it's sold more than in the OS4 market. Otherwise Sam440 price would fall (and it's as expensive as in the first day)

_________________
The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

@HKvalhe


Quote:

I agree with the other person that also ACube should be contacted, but you might want to talk to Hyperion Entertainment for the AmigaOS support in these new hardwares.

As well as Amiga Inc since their law suit against Hyperion is still active.

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Dammy

I would be interested only if its faster then my A1G4XE.

@damocles

The word "active" somehow conveys a different meaning than "no new court documents for over 8 months". Are you sure you meant "active"?

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

Quote:

The word "active" somehow conveys a different meaning than "no new court documents for over 8 months". Are you sure you meant "active"?

It is still active in the US Federal Courts, that is active enough for me.

_________________
Dammy

@damocles

Even if A.Inc could prevail in the lawsuit (which seems less likely with every passing day), they could not prevent the hardware from being produced, their only influence would be on the AmigaOS which is one of several OSes that the OP is planning to have ported to his potential hardware project.

_________________
Amiga! The computer that inspired so many, to accomplish so much, but has ended up in the hands of . . . . . . . . . .

@feanor

Thanks for the effort, but I am sorry to till you we are almost finishing year 2009 and the CURRENT MEDIUM technology (not even FUTURE (which in our case it is necessary to survive a few years with the same product) or "HIGH-END") is a bit more advanced than that. I'm gonna introduce you to some current STANDARDs for computers:

USB 3.0: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_3.0#USB_3.0

MULTI-CORE PROCESSORS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-core

OPENGL 3.0 (OR 3.1, 3.2) GRAPHIC CARDS: http://www.opengl.org/

WI-FI N NETWORKS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11n-2009

E-SATA CONNECTIONS (which include also USB): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA

TOUCH SCREENS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen

...

There are more, but I will update the list with them as soon as I have a bit more time.

You're welcome!

Last edited by vision on 24-Sep-2009 at 04:45 PM.

@vision

Point taken, I take it that you will wait a long time for an AmigaOS-compatible computer with these specs. Or in case you're talking about a PC or Mac, then it would be foolish of me to try and take it heads on with them, wouldn't it?

I admit I didn't know E-SATA includes USB (it doesn't, I'm being ironic).

I'm probably more aware about new technology than you think, but I appreciate the feedback in any form.

Konstantinos