1. A bunch of hardware experts get together under the front of a joystick-manufacturing company.
2. They make a computer that makes our 2009 PC's look like a child's toy.

Shouldn't be hard, should it? I think Amiga stopped being the leader in terms of raw power before the A1200 arrived. It still dominated in some areas because of its OS and the advantages of having dedicated hardware (PC took a while to gain its footing, since there was no such computer as a PC, just the countless different hardware configurations, and Windows, terrible though it was, had to tie all that together. Really, would AmigaOS have been much better if they tried to make it run on all "IBM-compatibles" in 1993?).

I haven't used a miggy since 2002, when I sold my A1200 housed in a tower with an 060 accelerator @ 66mhz. I always swore that I wouldn't become one of those people who turned to the "dark side". But really, how long can you wait for a sleeping hare when the tortoise has travelled hundreds of miles ahead of it? It seems like the most fanatical of Amigans end up becoming the ones most resentful of the machine once they give it up and eager to declare it dead. I don't feel resentful, and it's alive so long as people use it, but I don't feel any desire to return to it even for nostalgia's sake.

I gave it up for practical reasons. I found XP to be a decent OS, Vista to be rubbish, and 7 very good (the pinning-to-taskbar and blurring the distinction between apps that are loaded and that which are not was a great idea--simple, but great--it's made my work a whole lot more economical). Although the disk space it consumes does make my jaw drop.

I'd like to try out OS4 and recall the nostalgia, but I'm not sure if I'll even be able to do that. I can't quite understand what made me so fond of the Amiga, even though I definitely was. I can only think it was the dedicated hardware and the sense of identity it had. Windows is more of a chameleon in that regard.

I'm wondering just how rational my interest in Amigas was, and how much of it was fanaticism. When called upon to explain why the Amiga was so much better than PC's, I kept refering (in 1995) to the 1985 truth that it is way ahead of it's time. Oh, and arexx was powerful, and it was easy to edit the startup sequence. Really, I struggled to explain it, and looking back on it I don't understand why I was so crazy about it. I'm wondering if it was also a hatred of Windows--the Amiga definitely didn't suck in ways that windows definitely did--back then.

Anyone feel similarly? Oh, and I'm not trying to raise people's hackles--I think if I wrote this post 5 or 10 years ago I'd be met with more hostility, but from being an omnipresent lurker i get the impression people here have sobered to the fact that Amiga is never going to have the glory it once had and is just a hobby now, so I thought I'd see how this goes down.

@soft

Yes I think most of us here look at the Amiga as a hobby and there's nothing wrong with that.

While it's very unlikely the OS will ever get back to its heights of popularity, there is no reason why things cannot improve from where they are now (which is fascinating to watch). It's like a 20 year soap opera, someone pass the pop-corn

At the end of the day, if the OS is good enough (compared to the competition) and HW is available, then people will use it.

@soft

I like you felt jaded at first with all the promises and AI's bs..but I hobestly never lost hope for the computer that captured my imagiantion all those years ago...then Hyperion and Acube came along and 'real' things started happening and now finally those bloody court cases are over..my head has been spinning lately with all the happenings in Amiga land this 2009

_________________
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@soft

I think the Amiga with the right hardware and software could be back on top once again. One of the things that made the Amiga powerful was the custom chipset. Thinking in terms of today's standards you don't necessarily need a powerful cpu if the computer is well designed. Just for the fun of it maybe everyone can offer some specs of what they feel would be needed to put the Amiga back on top.

Freescale 8610@1.33ghz
this processor has a built in memory controller for DDR2 533mhz ram up to 16 gigabytes, 2D 24bit display controller up to 1280x1024, dual PCI express controllers, and a PCI controller. Last time I checked this processor cost $212.50

Any modern system needs 24 bit audio, I think the VIA Envy 24 sound chip has the best sound quality I have heard. This is the sound chip used in the M-audio Revolution sound cards such as the one in my PowerPC Macintosh. I am not sure of the price but they should be fairly inexpensive. Possibly add a Freescale 24 bit dsp as well, most here know how it made the Atari Falcon so powerful and the delfina sound cards, also they have dsp's up to 270mhz these days.

One of the main reason's why the Amiga became so popular was the Video Toaster, if the Amiga had something like this, http://www.caustic.com/caustic-rt_caustic-one.php , it would be able to regain the former glory in Video Editing. A firewire port and controller would also help as well as usb 2.0.

3D Rendering something along the lines of opencl with a modern gpu.

As long as you have a well designed system for today as the Amiga was in 1985 , its possible to regain the title. With offloading audio, video, rendering, and still have the altivec unit for extra power where ever needed, you do not need a $1,000 Intel cpu to run modern software. The Amiga did not become popular because it was another 68000 based system, the chipset and software designed to use it made the difference.

Quote:

I like you felt jaded at first with all the promises and AI's bs..but I hobestly never lost hope for the computer that captured my imagiantion all those years ago...then Hyperion and Acube came along and 'real' things started happening and now finally those bloody court cases are over..my head has been spinning lately with all the happenings in Amiga land this 2009

You kind of said it without intending to. It's 2009. I'd say 1999 was the latest time, if there ever was a time for it to get back into the game.

I haven't used OS4, but I suspect it is pretty good. And while I know noone is probably harbouring any realistic expectations, it's worth pointing out that "good" does not mean "revolutionary" which is what the Amiga was at its birth. Frankly I wouldn't care if the Amiga became a hit again, as opposed to anything else becoming a hit. It's just a name; if something managed to triumph on that level if wouldn't be whatever the Amiga used to be, and so there's no reason that it must be called that either. If something does triumph then it deserves to, whatever its name happens to be.

I think this is the reason I can't share in your excitement. There was a time when if it was "Amiga" and it was succeeding on a relative scale, then that was all that mattered to me. It was more like loyalty to a football team even when the team is losing, rather than admiration directed solely at success.

Anyway, my post contained a question: what about the Amiga was objectively superior, as opposed to just a matter of taste-- and how much of that is still superior today? I'm wondering if someone could define what made the Amiga really kick ass, without resorting to emotive terms. In other words I'm wondering if they can succeed where I failed those years ago.

@soft

The Amiga was the only desktop computer with pre-epmtive multitasking, text to speech, excellent audio, supported a palette of 4096 colors, interlace video for more colors and better resolutions. With the exception of the Mindset PC, PC compatibles had 16 colors at best, terrible sound, and could run only one program at a time. Mac's were monochrome and single tasking. The Atari ST was the closest in terms of specs but was still single tasking. How much of that is still superior today? None, but it took an awful long time for me to say that as well as it took way too long for other companies to catch up. There is just something about the Amiga spirit which cannot be explained. I think for me it has to do with the fact that without companies like Atari and Commodore the innovation is lost. A Macintosh is the closest I can get and I am still not as impressed as i was back then. Nothing extraordinary is happening anymore, its just small increments in advancement of technology.

Quote:

I think for me it has to do with the fact that without companies like Atari and Commodore the innovation is lost. A Macintosh is the closest I can get and I am still not as impressed as i was back then. Nothing extraordinary is happening anymore, its just small increments in advancement of technology.

I agree. The slow increments give us too much time to get used to what's there, even though it's infinitely more powerful than what existed in the past we're not exited about the possibilities. But I'm not sure that that's anyone's fault. If amazing graphics are commonplace, for example, if easy video editing is commonplace, we don't get excited about it? That's probably how it works, but it's not very logical. :)

@Sloar

Quote:

Sloar wrote: @soft I think the Amiga with the right hardware and software could be back on top once again. One of the things that made the Amiga powerful was the custom chipset. Thinking in terms of today's standards you don't necessarily need a powerful cpu if the computer is well designed. Just for the fun of it maybe everyone can offer some specs of what they feel would be needed to put the Amiga back on top. Freescale 8610@1.33ghz this processor has a built in memory controller for DDR2 533mhz ram up to 16 gigabytes, 2D 24bit display controller up to 1280x1024, dual PCI express controllers, and a PCI controller. Last time I checked this processor cost $212.50 Any modern system needs 24 bit audio, I think the VIA Envy 24 sound chip has the best sound quality I have heard. This is the sound chip used in the M-audio Revolution sound cards such as the one in my PowerPC Macintosh. I am not sure of the price but they should be fairly inexpensive. Possibly add a Freescale 24 bit dsp as well, most here know how it made the Atari Falcon so powerful and the delfina sound cards, also they have dsp's up to 270mhz these days. One of the main reason's why the Amiga became so popular was the Video Toaster, if the Amiga had something like this, http://www.caustic.com/caustic-rt_caustic-one.php , it would be able to regain the former glory in Video Editing. A firewire port and controller would also help as well as usb 2.0. 3D Rendering something along the lines of opencl with a modern gpu. As long as you have a well designed system for today as the Amiga was in 1985 , its possible to regain the title. With offloading audio, video, rendering, and still have the altivec unit for extra power where ever needed, you do not need a $1,000 Intel cpu to run modern software. The Amiga did not become popular because it was another 68000 based system, the chipset and software designed to use it made the difference.

Why $1000 Intel CPU? There's $99 USD(1) AMD Athlon II X4 620 (Quad Core) @2.6Ghz. Each CPU includes SSE128 vector unit. Combo AMD Athlon II X4 620 +Mobo +IGP+etc cost $155 USD. Geforce 6100 IGP smacks Freescale 8610's built-in gfx card.

Reference.
1. http://www.pricewatch.com/browse/cpu/athlon_ii_x4_620
2. http://www.pricewatch.com/browse/motherboard_combos/athlon_ii_x4_620

If we talk about $1000 Intel CPU and raytracing, there's X86 based Intel Larrabee i.e. a CPU/GPU hybrid.

Last edited by Hammer on 20-Oct-2009 at 03:03 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 20-Oct-2009 at 01:41 PM.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@Sloar

Quote:

Sloar wrote: @soft The Amiga was the only desktop computer with pre-epmtive multitasking, text to speech, excellent audio, supported a palette of 4096 colors, interlace video for more colors and better resolutions. With the exception of the Mindset PC, PC compatibles had 16 colors at best, terrible sound, and could run only one program at a time. Mac's were monochrome and single tasking. The Atari ST was the closest in terms of specs but was still single tasking. How much of that is still superior today? None, but it took an awful long time for me to say that as well as it took way too long for other companies to catch up. There is just something about the Amiga spirit which cannot be explained. I think for me it has to do with the fact that without companies like Atari and Commodore the innovation is lost. A Macintosh is the closest I can get and I am still not as impressed as i was back then. Nothing extraordinary is happening anymore, its just small increments in advancement of technology.

Refer to Xbox 360 and PS3 for holding back PC gaming. None of these so-called HD console games matches Crysis PC in graphics and scale.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@Sloar

Quote:

Sloar wrote: @soft I think the Amiga with the right hardware and software could be back on top once again. One of the things that made the Amiga powerful was the custom chipset. Thinking in terms of today's standards you don't necessarily need a powerful cpu if the computer is well designed. Just for the fun of it maybe everyone can offer some specs of what they feel would be needed to put the Amiga back on top. Freescale 8610@1.33ghz this processor has a built in memory controller for DDR2 533mhz ram up to 16 gigabytes, 2D 24bit display controller up to 1280x1024, dual PCI express controllers, and a PCI controller. Last time I checked this processor cost $212.50 Any modern system needs 24 bit audio, I think the VIA Envy 24 sound chip has the best sound quality I have heard. This is the sound chip used in the M-audio Revolution sound cards such as the one in my PowerPC Macintosh. I am not sure of the price but they should be fairly inexpensive. Possibly add a Freescale 24 bit dsp as well, most here know how it made the Atari Falcon so powerful and the delfina sound cards, also they have dsp's up to 270mhz these days. One of the main reason's why the Amiga became so popular was the Video Toaster, if the Amiga had something like this, http://www.caustic.com/caustic-rt_caustic-one.php , it would be able to regain the former glory in Video Editing.(SNIP)

Another Raytracing FUD. Refer http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/38145/135/
"Watch out, Larrabee: Radeon 4800 supports a 100% ray-traced pipeline".

Practical application
1. Raytracing Transformers movie trailers in real time with AMD Radeon HD 2900/3800/4800.

http://www.pcper.com/comments.php?nid=7801
CausticRT
VS
AMD Radeon HD 4800/Cinema 2.0/OTOY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALD4NRR_DwY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIwYpElarCk
Also, AMD just released Radeon HD 5700 and 5800.

From Intel's raytracing POV, there's X86 based Intel Larrabee cGPU.

From NVIDIA's raytracing POV, there's G300-Fermi.

CausticRT doesn't have the ATI/NV/Intel's economics of scale.

Last edited by Hammer on 20-Oct-2009 at 02:50 PM.
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_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

I chose a PowerPC cpu because Hyperion has made it clear that its the architecture they will support. I well understand there are x86 Quad Cores much cheaper but that is a moot point. As far as ray tracing from ATI, Nvidia, and Intel, even though they have the economies of scale on their side, they are less likely to work with a small market than a startup.

With AROS being open source there is nothing stopping anyone from developing it to become their next amiga like OS on x86. I guess its easier to complain about Hyperions choice of PowerPC then code their own.

Thank you very much for the links Hammer, I am reading and watching all of them. When I think of ray tracing I wish I could do it on a modern Amiga or Atari Falcon computer.

@Hammer

Uhm, Hammer, you may want to take a closer look at the price difference between a high end PC and what a Ps3 costs today!!!

If you want to play Crysis 1 and/or Crysis 2 (upcoming) in all their glory be prepared to shell out anything from $2000 dollars or more.

The Cell/RsX combination is actually extremely powerful.One of the major hobbling factors unfortunately is the low Ram; otherwise, if Ram were expandable, the Ps3 is a very nice 64bit computer, and a very powerful one at that. Do take note of the detail found in Killzone 2, or the graphic beauty that is Uncharted 2; or maybe the upcoming GT5 and God Of War III may tempt you otherwise.

The Ps3 gave me the excitement and happiness my Amiga did way back then... it is so sad the Ps3 is not an open system, but I can understand why Sony has done it.

Anyhow, with the news now that Os4.1 (and beyond) is unleashed, and the continued progress the Natami team make; I do look ahead to happier days.

Saying all that though; both Linux and Haiku seem like great alternatives. The latest version of Kubuntu is pretty fantastic with the eye candy making it feel like one is using OsX. Haiku looks very promising; I may try this soon. AROS is also looking very good, and will give that another shot too.

All in all much to chose from. Let us not ignore the continuing progression of Android too.

Q!

"i am home"

Last edited by QuBe on 20-Oct-2009 at 04:38 PM.

@QuBe

Quote:

If you want to play Crysis 1 and/or Crysis 2 (upcoming) in all their glory be prepared to shell out anything from $2000 dollars or more.

I spent a whole day researching and shopping around two months ago, and these are UK prices, but here's what I came away with:

3GB OCZ-gold DDR3 Ram: £33.90
Prolimatech Megahalems Performance CPU Cooler: £39.12
B-grade Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 1TB SATA-II HDD: £46.95
B-grade Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD3R motherboard: £99.99
Samsung DVD-RW: £14.77
Akasa Ultra Quiet 120mm Fan: £4.99

Total + VAT: 275.67

And then, off of ebay: i7 920 SLBEJ: £190.

And off of another supplier: GTX 260 Gainward Golden Sample: £118.02 + vat and postage

Finally a 530W PSU: £22.99 + vat

Total: £606.66 (already had a case to fit it in).

At current exchange rate that's $992. I've oc'd this rig to 3.4 ghz successfully, and could go further if I improve the fans. I tried the RE5 demo at full settings and my monitor's native 1280x1024 resolution, and it didn't once dip below 55 fps.

@soft Quote:

the pinning-to-taskbar and blurring the distinction between apps that are loaded and that which are not was a great idea--simple, but great--it's made my work a whole lot more economical

You should have look at Mac OS X some time... (Microsoft never invents *anything* good, rather they just steal great ideas, and then usually do a poor imitation of it.)

_________________
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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@soft Quote:

It seems like the most fanatical of Amigans end up becoming the ones most resentful of the machine once they give it up and eager to declare it dead

Is that a reference to the MooBunny?...

Quote:

I can't quite understand what made me so fond of the Amiga, even though I definitely was

Although I've used Windows for a long time, there are so many things that still annoy the hell out of me compared to AmigaOS. E.g.:
* Sometimes doing the simplest thing in Windows (e.g. opening a folder) will cause it to grind to a halt, for no readily apparent reason, and usually the problem is not repeatable. Excepting a few bugs on new hardware, or cases where you use 100% of the available memory, AmigaOS never does that.

* Even simple programs can take an age to start on Windows sometimes. Amiga programs reliably start at the same speed each time, usually very fast. (OWB & NetSurf are a bit of an exception, with long start times.)

* Windows was never designed to handle games taking full control of the screen, so switching to full-screen (and back) can be a painful experience. Amiga has always had it's screens system, so switching to/from system-friendly games is lightning quick!

* Windows does not support file comments (as standard), but Amiga does, and they are very useful (especially for downloaded files, so you can see where it came from).

* When the Amiga's desktop appears, you know it is ready for use. When Windows desktop appears, you still have to wait ages before it's really ready to go, unless you like moving in treacle.

* RAM disk is a nice place to put temporary stuff, without cluttering up your HD, but Windows does not come with anything like it, so your desktop likely gets cluttered with "temporary" files.

The list could go on & on, but I think you get the jist of it. Ring any bells for you?

BTW, believe it or not, but some people STILL use Amiga *exclusively* at home, and are proud not to have a PC (which usually annoys them at work so they are happy to avoid it at home). I'm not one of them though!

Last edited by ChrisH on 20-Oct-2009 at 08:23 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 20-Oct-2009 at 08:21 PM.

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

I don't think that Amiga will be like the old good days, the background of the industry has changed, the mind of people also, Amiga was a sucessfull on his time, i don't think that video editing will give more importance to the Amiga , you have dozens of solutions for any kind of applications nowadays, there are more agressive competition on the industry. Take a look to SkyOS, it is an operative system and looks interesting, but the author has stopped the project, he said:

"The speed at which new hardware and technology gets developed has increased dramatically in the last few years. Trying to catch up with development of frameworks, drivers, applications, test, etc. got way more complicated than years ago...
... Eventually, I have to admit that I underestimated the speed at which new technolgy develops and establishes."

Last edited by balrogsoft on 20-Oct-2009 at 08:28 PM.
Last edited by balrogsoft on 20-Oct-2009 at 08:10 PM.

_________________
Balrog Software · http://www.amigaskool.net
Efika · MorphOS 2.4 · Ati Radeon 9200P 128Mb · 120 Gb WD HD
Amiga 1200T · OS 4.0 · BVision & Voodoo3 · Blizzard 603e/240mhz 060/50mhz · 98 Mb RAM · 40 GB HD

@balrogsoft
Yeah, I think the opportunity to retake the video market was in 1999 not 2009. Everyday users have Premiere, FInal Cut, Avid and others which run rings around Amiga Video Toaster. Heck even iMovie is a better program and it's just part of iLife. The Amiga had the video industry, there were hundreds of them scattered around hollywood film studios, and it dropped the ball. Now there's not one to be found, even Dick van Dyke moved on.

@soft

Fine, but at current exchange rates that is closer to $1500 dollars US, right? ...and you didn't mention whether or not you can run Crysis at full detail on that rig.

Maybe the GTX 250 GPU is poweful enough to do it, but you would need to test it; or maybe give the new 3D mark a whirl to see exactly what peak you get from it.

Q!

"i am home"

@QuBe


Quote:

Uhm, Hammer, you may want to take a closer look at the price difference between a high end PC and what a Ps3 costs today!!!

If I was to spend the same on a PS3 as I was to spend on a gaming PC the PS3 would be destroyed.
Quad core athlon2 cpu + mobo, gf9600gt (or equivalnet),2 gig ram, 320 gig harddrive, case, keyboard and a bluray drive can be picked up for about same price as a PS3 and is a heck of a lot more powerful.
This isnt to say Im a PC gamer, because Im not, but PS3 just doesnt compare in value for money. Weird how things have gone.... once upon a time consoles represented a cheap way to play reasonably high spec games. These days they struggle to match price with considerably more powerful computer hardware.

@QuBe

Quote:

QuBe wrote: @Hammer Uhm, Hammer, you may want to take a closer look at the price difference between a high end PC and what a Ps3 costs today!!! If you want to play Crysis 1 and/or Crysis 2 (upcoming) in all their glory be prepared to shell out anything from $2000 dollars or more. The Cell/RsX combination is actually extremely powerful.One of the major hobbling factors unfortunately is the low Ram;

Geforce 7/RSX's pixel shaders stalls during texture operations. This design flaw was fixed with the G80.

Quote:

otherwise, if Ram were expandable, the Ps3 is a very nice 64bit computer, and a very powerful one at that. Do take note of the detail found in Killzone 2, or the graphic beauty that is Uncharted 2; or maybe the upcoming GT5 and God Of War III may tempt you otherwise.

It wouldn't tempt me. If AW forums was like gamespot's system debates forums (i.e. without limiting the screen shots size) then I'll welcome a debate on the subject i.e. Game For Windows (e.g. AMD GAME! hardware reference) vs PS3 vs Xbox 360.

One doesn't need $2000 USD PC to play Crysis Warhead at max settings.
For example, add a Radeon HD 4850 or Radeon HD 5750 to the above Athlon II X4 620 + mobo combo setup. You can easily play Crysis DX10 at max settings at 720p/900p. Most HD consoles games play at 720p.

One can build a $499 USD PC that crushes Xbox 360 and PS3 today. The gaming PC must be built around a powerfull GPU with CPU being secondary.


Note the DX10 software model. Link

Quote:

The Ps3 gave me the excitement and happiness my Amiga did way back then... it is so sad the Ps3 is not an open system, but I can understand why Sony has done it.

It's too bad my PC Fold@Home GPU2 kills Fold@Home PS3. CELL is not the only stream processor.

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Oct-2009 at 10:07 AM.
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Last edited by Hammer on 21-Oct-2009 at 09:56 AM.
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_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB