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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 20-Feb-2012 23:08:51
#181 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11705
From: Norway

@Tomas

Of course you should not turn off your computer before you have saved your work, temp files are stored in RAM so we are running a lower risk then most operating systems, SFS is rock hard to crash.

If light go out, then it will not help to have normal shutdown anyway, your should get a UPS or if you don't feel safe, and every one should do backup as hard drives do break.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Feb-2012 at 11:16 PM.

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Tomas 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 1:42:05
#182 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga
I am not talking about shutting down apps and saving before. Of course i do this, but still that dosent stop all disk activity from ending thanks to all other processes running in background.

And i know from personal experience that journaling file systems arent immune to this. I have had ntfs partitions become so corrupted that windows refuses to boot because of this.

I would think SFS has the same problems even though it is quite rare compared to old filesystems.

And i still dont get the logic of being against such a feature when no one forces you to use it.
If you like to switch it off with power button, then just do so.
I myself would like a shutdown feature to lower the chances of file system corruption.

I must admit it is not what i think hyperion should prioritize right now though, since there are plenty of other features i find more important to add first like for example memory protection, SMP and so on.

Last edited by Tomas on 21-Feb-2012 at 01:44 AM.
Last edited by Tomas on 21-Feb-2012 at 01:44 AM.

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Belxjander 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 6:52:49
#183 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2005
Posts: 557
From: Chiba prefecture Japan

@Trev + @KimmoK

When referring to "Shutting down" and "Memory Protection" can you at least clarify your
meaning somewhat?

Do you mean "process isolation" where each process on the machine is effectively given
its own usage of the machine in a "fake" system?

or only access to the memory it has requested?

Ive personally had discussions about memory protection where the person was not even
discussing "protection" of memory outside the running tasks allocations at all.

the term seems to have become a catch all for some of the ignorant due to being touted
by Microsoft as part of Windows marketing.

Is this going discussion about "shutdown" options about Applications keeping records of what they have open?
and the OS keeping a list of active programs launched?

To me it would seem to be a similar setup to how firefox keeps a listing of opened tabs,
and giving the user an option to reload the tabs listed.

Would that not really be the easiest way to handle it? ... Every Application has to open
some basic libraries... just have a list in one library that is written out to disk when the
list is changed... and have a "relaunch" commodity in WBstartup?

have the best of both worlds... since the list of applications can either be ...
relaunch "clean" from disk or "relaunch saved state" for specific Applications.

I see problems mostly stemming from the "saved state" use of resources,
things like file handles and window handles are subject to change across sessions.

Windows and Linux get away with using system calls on these handles for all accesses
but AmigaOS has a legacy of these being structures in memory with limited direct
access being used from the programs concerned.

Any program which uses some kind of ".tmp" journalling of data would be good to use
as a clean relaunch.

you don't need a perfect state save (this would be a complete hibernation record afaik),
and I did play around with Hibernating and restoring OS3.x using the tool that was made.

I would more think to have a list of programs and option to relaunch at startup
and the programs themselves can handle any open files or state-keeping as they need.

that way you can delay launching at startup and recover where you left off later as well.

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KimmoK 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 7:25:19
#184 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@everybody
Thank you for the discussion so far.

@Belxjander

"Is this going discussion about "shutdown" options about Applications keeping records of what they have open?
and the OS keeping a list of active programs launched?"

Exactly. I see this kind of behaviour already in Ubuntu. We could and should improve on top of that.

"To me it would seem to be a similar setup to how firefox keeps a listing of opened tabs,
and giving the user an option to reload the tabs listed."

That is a working example.

"you don't need a perfect state save (this would be a complete hibernation record afaik),
and I did play around with Hibernating and restoring OS3.x using the tool that was made.
I would more think to have a list of programs and option to relaunch at startup
and the programs themselves can handle any open files or state-keeping as they need.
that way you can delay launching at startup and recover where you left off later as well."

Exactly.

@subject

If we had MP or resource tracking, we might have more options. But that's for the future.
Without MP I see features like hibernation pretty useless, but this discussed way pretty useable.

And still the brute force powerswitch-poweroff would exist as an alternative.

Last edited by KimmoK on 21-Feb-2012 at 07:29 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 21-Feb-2012 at 07:29 AM.

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realize 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 9:16:04
#185 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Apr-2003
Posts: 1797
From: nyc

@Fab

Quote:
And by the way, MorphOS Ambient also has the option to remember closed drawers and viewers (images/text/...).



Damn it Fab I didnt know that!


oh and to those who say "maybe in next update" many in os4 crowd have been wanting this for some time. Its particularly useful when your power switch is hard to access.

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Belxjander 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 12:37:41
#186 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2005
Posts: 557
From: Chiba prefecture Japan

@KimmoK

MultiProcessor or ResourceTracking support?

We have never had either of those professionally released until the X1000 and Hyperions
OS4.x release that will include SMP updates to ExecNG specifically for it.

as for resource tracking... that is going to remain a difficult proposition in itself,
unless added to ALL of the core framework libraries with some kind of callback

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Frags 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 12:56:23
#187 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Nov-2004
Posts: 971
From: East-Midlands (Nottingham) UK

I always turn my xp box off at the wall, never causes any trouble but I do have write caching off.

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_ThEcRoW 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 13:00:11
#188 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 830
From: Murcia (Spain)

I can't do anything but laugh at some of the comments.áDo you not want the os to evolve, fine, but then don't get picky when somone points a flaw.

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broadblues 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 13:14:39
#189 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4425
From: Portsmouth England

@realize
Quote:

its particularly useful when your power switch is hard to access.


software power off and shutdown are two seperate things. albeit related in that you generaly want the first to occur just after the second.

i wouldn't mind a software off switch, but does our hardware support it?

@thread

I don't want a software shutdown though, people say it can be optional, but once you've got one then apps will be written that expect, and gradually it becomes necessary.

perhaps at most a minimlist one that locks flushes filesystems and locks drives, to prevent a random write just at the moment of power off.

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broadblues 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 13:20:35
#190 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4425
From: Portsmouth England

@Tomas
Quote:

I am not talking about shutting down apps and saving before. Of course i do this, but still that dosent stop all disk activity from ending thanks to all other processes running in background.

Just what processes are writing to your disk at random after you've closed your Apps?

Try running snoopy for a while to see, I'm intrigued. I think you'll find there aren't any.

Last edited by broadblues on 21-Feb-2012 at 01:27 PM.

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Amigo1 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 13:48:46
#191 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1572
From: the Clouds

@Mechanic

Quote:

Mechanic wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
I don't see it as horribly useful on desktop like X1000.


Same here.

If somebody really needs SW shutdown we could probably come up with
something similar to a Fart Button that when pushed pops up a message
saying something like 'Are you saving to disk at this time?' 'Yes/No' and if
you answer No it then proceeds to tell you to push the computer power
button. (and farts).


look here on os4depot

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Tomas 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 14:32:02
#192 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@broadblues
Then explain to me how a filesystem can corrupt even though i SHUT EVERYTHING DOWN.
If there was nothing writing or reading from the disk at that very moment then there would be no corruption.

I am really getting sick and tired of the logic in this thread.. "I don't want a feature, so that means no one else should want it either, even though i could easily just choose to not use it.."

Try getting new users to join the platform this way.. Bet most people here would be against memory protection as well.

Last edited by Tomas on 21-Feb-2012 at 02:36 PM.

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broadblues 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 14:42:04
#193 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4425
From: Portsmouth England

@Tomas

Quote:

Then explain to me how a filesystem can corrupt even though i SHUT EVERYTHING DOWN.
If there was nothing writing or reading from the disk at that very moment then there would be no corruption.


1. try the snoopy test to see if you really have shut down everything, that's writing to disk. Leave it for a while just monitoring activity. (without using any apps ofcourse)

2. If you a regularly getting corruption of you filesystem, your disk may be wearing out.

I'm forever switch off , rebooting etc as I develop stuff and the worst I ever get is YAM having to rebuild it's folders. (touch wood)




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olegil 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 14:43:42
#194 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5888
From: Work

@Tomas

corruption can happen at any point on any OS, not just while turning off.

There's no such thing as a guaranteed error free file system. Unless it comes with a free lunch.

Other than that, I agree. Not having to shut down each and every app every time I want to power off (and having to start them up again afterwards) would be a benefit to ME. Someone else might not need or want it, but that shouldn't be of concern to ME as long as they can CHOOSE to leave the feature unused.

I fail to see how pressing the power button and apps automatically autosave before the OS turns off power is very un-Amiga.

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Tomas 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 15:25:52
#195 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@olegil
Yeah i know that.

For me it is more about lowering the risks of it happening.

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broadblues 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 15:39:01
#196 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4425
From: Portsmouth England

@Tomas

BTW there is a reboot command in C:

C:reboot ?
FAST=WARMREBOOT/S,WAIT/N/K,SYNC/S:

sync tries to lock files systems etc after disk activity has finished.

wait waits for a given number of sesonds before rebooting.

So try

C:REBOOT WAIT 30 SYNC

then power off during that 30 secs gap (make the 30 longer if need be)

IIRC you'll see all the drives go inactive "hand symbol on icon"

in the absense of a software power off that gets' you some way to what you want.

Combine it with a bit of ARexx and you have a nearly complete shutdown

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Mechanic 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 16:05:48
#197 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

I have nothing 'against' software shutdown. I would just not like to see
it become the standard way of shutting down an Amiga. Software complexity
replacing a button push should not be a goal (IMO).

Spin down the HDs and put CPU to low power, good idea.

Also as broadblues points out, first the hardware must support it, even then
as a utility, perhaps something like a Recoverable Ram Disk that gets stored
and is read back only if there is something in the folder that is created new
each time a SW shutdown is performed and deleted after the restore.

First thing I would rather see is a real button that would issue a OS soft reset
for those times some program, or combination of programs, locks things up but
not bad enough to require a hard reset, but...that's just me.

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broadblues 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 16:32:15
#198 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4425
From: Portsmouth England

@Mechanic

Quote:

First thing I would rather see is a real button that would issue a OS soft reset
for those times some program, or combination of programs, locks things up but
not bad enough to require a hard reset, but...that's just me.


er see above

Write a one line script and add an icon leave it out on wb or Drag it onto amidock if you want.

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Mechanic 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 18:15:43
#199 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote:
@Mechanic

Quote:

First thing I would rather see is a real button that would issue a OS soft reset
for those times some program, or combination of programs, locks things up but
not bad enough to require a hard reset, but...that's just me.


er see above

Write a one line script and add an icon leave it out on wb or Drag it onto amidock if you want.



Er? Cool, but 'everything' is locked up.

This even happens on my linux box every now and then. If I could just logout instead
of switch off............if you know what I mean.

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SinanG 
Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when?
Posted on 21-Feb-2012 21:14:33
#200 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 24-Dec-2004
Posts: 331
From: Unknown

@broadblues

Sam460 has a shutdown command in Uboot that works...

Shutdown command may be useful when you leave computer at home doing something (like raytracing, downloading). After the tasks are completed, OS4 can shutdown the board.

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