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Trev
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 0:34:20
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Cult Member |
Joined: 24-Jul-2005 Posts: 778
From: Sacramento, CA, USA | | |
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| @KimmoK
Quote:
I noticed that also some disk caches are flushed to disk only in shutdown and that makes sleep mode very dangerous. (recently I had saved about 20 documents in windows, but they did not appear to HDD before I did shutdown, If I did sleep and booted to linux, files did not show up) |
You suspended Windows, booted into a different operating system on the same hardware, and expected everything to work correctly? As far as the "system" is concerned, you're still running Windows, whether you really are or not._________________ Sam440ep-flex 733 MHz/1 GB RAM/Radeon 9250/AmigaOS4.1 Update 2 borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3 more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision A500/clockport/RRNet A600/A603 |
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Trev
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 0:35:24
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Joined: 24-Jul-2005 Posts: 778
From: Sacramento, CA, USA | | |
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| @Leo/@ChrisH
I wonder. The hard disk LED on my sam440ep-flex flickers constantly, so I never know what it's actually doing. EDIT: I suspect something in OS4 is unnecessarily (or necessarily?) polling the disk.
Last edited by Trev on 01-Dec-2009 at 12:37 AM.
_________________ Sam440ep-flex 733 MHz/1 GB RAM/Radeon 9250/AmigaOS4.1 Update 2 borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3 more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision A500/clockport/RRNet A600/A603 |
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ChrisH
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 0:37:36
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Elite Member |
Joined: 30-Jan-2005 Posts: 6679
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Trev Quote:
Not every process uses the registry directly. |
I don't think that someone who doesn't even know what the registry IS needs to know such details!
BTW, NTFS does not ensure consistency of data - but rather only for the meta data (but I guess you knew that)._________________ Author of the PortablE programming language. It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue... |
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ChrisH
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 0:41:12
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Elite Member |
Joined: 30-Jan-2005 Posts: 6679
From: Unknown | | |
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| @persia AmigaOS does not have a central registry, or even really a central location for storing stuff. The closest you will come is all the files within EnvArc:, but no-where near all system state is stored there.
IMHO the Amiga is all the better for not having all it's eggs in one (very big, quite fragile & hard-to-fix) basket. (If you get a bad-block on your HD, the chances are it will be Window's registry (due to it's size), thus nuking it.) Last edited by ChrisH on 01-Dec-2009 at 12:43 AM. Last edited by ChrisH on 01-Dec-2009 at 12:43 AM.
_________________ Author of the PortablE programming language. It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue... |
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Gebrochen
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 2:34:50
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Super Member |
Joined: 23-Nov-2008 Posts: 1429
From: Australia | | |
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Trev
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 2:53:55
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Cult Member |
Joined: 24-Jul-2005 Posts: 778
From: Sacramento, CA, USA | | |
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| @ChrisH
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BTW, NTFS does not ensure consistency of data - but rather only for the meta data (but I guess you knew that). |
Unless told otherwise, NTFS guarantees file system consistency. All changes to the file system are indeed logged. Whether or not data is guaranteed to be consistent depends on how you've told Windows to write the data (buffered or unbuffered).
The registry APIs have their own lazy write mechanism, and all writes to the registry are logged (and back in the day, mirrored) to maintain consistency. It's still up to the application to manage its own values, though, as Windows will only guarantee that the registry files are consistent. A lot of folks implement their own transaction schemes, which is presumably why Microsoft created a standard API for transaction-based registry access.
If something does go terribly, horribly wrong with the registry files, the most likely cause is a bad disk sector, as you noted.
All that said, this is just my understanding of how things work. I could be wrong. There's plenty of information in MSDN, TechNet, the Premier knowledge base, et al. If you work with an organization that's part of Microsoft's Enterprise Source Licensing Program (or its academic equivalent), you may even have access to Windows source code, which is obviously the best place to look._________________ Sam440ep-flex 733 MHz/1 GB RAM/Radeon 9250/AmigaOS4.1 Update 2 borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3 more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision A500/clockport/RRNet A600/A603 |
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Gebrochen
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 5:00:23
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Joined: 23-Nov-2008 Posts: 1429
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Trev
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 7:13:36
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Cult Member |
Joined: 24-Jul-2005 Posts: 778
From: Sacramento, CA, USA | | |
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| @Gebrochen
Honestly, I don't know, but saying something is ####e isn't much of an argument one way or the other. They all share a number of modern features, but they're designed different applications. JXFS and SFS are to FFS what HPFS and FAT32 were to FAT, although JXFS and SFS have features that HPFS and FAT32 do not. I'm sure someone has posted a comparison of some sort in the past. NTFS does support many features that SFS and JXFS do not, most of which the average 17 year old would never use. (I'm not knocking the 17 year old. Lots of kids out there are way smarter than I am.) _________________ Sam440ep-flex 733 MHz/1 GB RAM/Radeon 9250/AmigaOS4.1 Update 2 borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3 more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision A500/clockport/RRNet A600/A603 |
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Leo
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 8:02:23
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Super Member |
Joined: 21-Aug-2003 Posts: 1597
From: Unknown | | |
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| Quote:
IMHO the Amiga is all the better for not having all it's eggs in one
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Is it any better to have prefs everywhere ? Envarc/env, progdir:, s:,... ?
I'm not sure... Amiga is all about simplicity, but this doesn't mean this is better. Computing have evolved since 20 years. AmigaOS mostly haven't... There are surely a lot of good things that don't need to be modified. But a lot of others should be. This shut down procedure is one of them according to me._________________ http://www.warpdesign.fr/ |
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Daedalus
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 8:44:47
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Joined: 14-Jul-2003 Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born | | |
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| @BigD
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BigD wrote: I really resent Mac OSX giving me 2 minutes to change my mind after deciding to 'Shut Down'! Is there a way to change this? |
No, it can't be changed as far as I am aware. But it doesn't mean you have to wait for the two minutes... I happen to like the Mac shutdown compared to Windows. On my Mac, I press the power button and press enter straight away. It starts shutting down immediately. On my XP machine, I click start, click shutdown, wait a few seconds for the disk churning to happen and the dialogue box to eventually show up, then click Shut Down. It's only an extra click, but takes ten times longer! And doing it with the keyboard involves even more keypresses..._________________ RobTheNerd.com | InstallerGen | SMBMounter | Atoms-X |
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ChrisH
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 9:11:22
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Elite Member |
Joined: 30-Jan-2005 Posts: 6679
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Trev Quote:
Microsoft created a standard API for transaction-based registry access. |
I had noted that MS had created a really bad Transactional file API, but I didn't think it was registry-specific? Or is there another one?_________________ Author of the PortablE programming language. It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue... |
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ChrisH
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 9:17:56
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Elite Member |
Joined: 30-Jan-2005 Posts: 6679
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Leo Quote:
Is it any better to have prefs everywhere ? Envarc/env, progdir:, s:,... ? |
Well, put it like this, I prefer having it stored in lots of little files, rather than one great humungous file that I cannot easily backup/modify/restore individual bits of.
Whether the Amiga's particularly way (which does not use one special directory) is better or worse is no-doubt debatable..._________________ Author of the PortablE programming language. It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue... |
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BigD
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 9:21:27
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Elite Member |
Joined: 11-Aug-2005 Posts: 7307
From: UK | | |
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| @Daedalus
Here's the solution for dialogue box free Mac OSX shutdown!
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Holding option and clicking "shut down" will bypass the dialog box.
Alternatively, you can press Control + Option + Command + Power/Eject Key |
Much better _________________ "Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art." John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios |
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asymetrix
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 9:27:27
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Cult Member |
Joined: 9-Mar-2003 Posts: 868
From: United Kingdom | | |
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| @thread
Could the RAD: disk be used ? or similar ?
Use something like RAD: to boot, but also have application state / memory accessed from th ere.
I dont know how slow using RAD: as memory (binary image) would be though.
Interesting feature, worth a look into how effecient it could be.
_________________ Download 499.26 Mbps, 659.94 Mbps Upload :) |
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Daemon
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 9:31:58
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Joined: 14-Feb-2008 Posts: 51
From: Stockholm, Sweden | | |
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| sw shutdown, would be great to have incase you want to shutdown after a download completes or at an specific time.
rather frustrating to wait manually for things to complete to then manually turn off a computer....
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BillE
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 9:47:44
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Super Member |
Joined: 14-Nov-2003 Posts: 1195
From: Northern Scotland | | |
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| @Leo
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What if your email program is receving an email while you power your computer off ?What if your webbrowser is writing something down to disk while you power it off ? |
Surely no one would be so stupid to power off their computer while doing any of those things ! It is the ultimate in nanny computing if you have to allow for such idiocy
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Powering it down by hand isn't safe. |
Of course it is and I like the way I can kill my Amiga by flicking the switch and not have to go through the painful way my Mac does it.
What about power cuts, you have no choice then - and they *do* happen. |
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bernd_afa
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 12:38:45
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Cult Member |
Joined: 14-Apr-2006 Posts: 829
From: Unknown | | |
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| @ChrisH >AmigaOS does not have a central registry, or even really a central location for >storing stuff. The closest you will come is all the files within EnvArc:, but no-where >near all system state is stored there.
I think the env System of AOS (files in envarc) can be seem simular to windows registry.
But AOS is lots more transparent and when you use better env handlers as happy env its lots faster and need not so much ram as windows registry.
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KimmoK
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 13:07:52
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Elite Member |
Joined: 14-Mar-2003 Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland | | |
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| @Trev
>You suspended Windows, booted into a different operating system on the same hardware, and expected everything to work correctly? As far as the "system" is concerned, you're still running Windows, whether you really are or not.
Only microsoft seem to think so.
Do we let them to define how a computer "system" should work?
_________________ - KimmoK // For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA // // Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer? |
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KimmoK
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 13:22:23
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Elite Member |
Joined: 14-Mar-2003 Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland | | |
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| @Trev
>Better yet, OS4 should be able to guess what tasks I want to complete--e.g. writing a device driver, editing a video, writing a letter to Grandma--and then complete them at power on. That would save me so much time!
Right. Except that my idea is doable and useable.
>In all seriousness, you can't protect against accidental power loss without some form of nonvolatile memory or redundant power supply. This is why write caching disk controllers have batteries.
But it would be a lot better (when files are in HDD) than only hibernation & data only in RAM.
>Hibernating by saving and restoring the system state is a perfectly reasonable approach.
That is the sleep mode, is it not? Hibernation is the one when RAM is powered and data remains there.
> If writing to mechanical disks is too slow, switch to solid state disks. Still it's slower and/or more expensive. Why you think that the Microsoft "invented" way is the only good way?
As a SW professional, I know that restart is the most reliable way (=CLEAN restart). For example Linux (+apps) can remember what it had running previously, when being shut down. So one can continue work another day without the overnight use of sleep mode. It just is slow to boot Linux, AOS could do it better.
added:
>As noted by myself and others, it's still possible to lose data if you have write caching enabled. Unless you have an uninterruptible power supply, I suggest leaving write caching disabled. This is usually managed by your HBA driver.
With windows one has also the chance to stop using hibernate and sleep, but always shutdown.
(with Linux & "my" feature, one can return to straight to work, even after shutdown, perhaps faster) Last edited by KimmoK on 01-Dec-2009 at 01:37 PM. Last edited by KimmoK on 01-Dec-2009 at 01:31 PM.
_________________ - KimmoK // For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA // // Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer? |
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ChrisH
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Re: SW shutdown, is it planned? when? Posted on 1-Dec-2009 14:07:13
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Elite Member |
Joined: 30-Jan-2005 Posts: 6679
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