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NutsAboutAmiga
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 22-Mar-2010 21:27:06
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Elite Member |
Joined: 9-Jun-2004 Posts: 12933
From: Norway | | |
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bitman
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 22-Mar-2010 21:29:09
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Cult Member |
Joined: 25-Mar-2008 Posts: 705
From: Fredericia, Denmark | | |
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| @yoodoo2
Look forward to the book. I have been programming for PC for 15 years now - lately in .NET - and I want to program on Amiga, but find it hard to start. _________________ Maintainer of www.bigbookofamigahardware.com |
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flipper
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 22-Mar-2010 22:12:09
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Regular Member |
Joined: 30-Jan-2003 Posts: 132
From: Homer,Alaska | | |
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| @yoodoo2
I will buy your book when its finished.I would also like to see uboot fully covered in a chapter to help us understand adding new devices to our Amigas. Also dos commands with examples to help new beginners do real hands on dos commands. A chapter on keyboard and menu shortcuts. |
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tonyw
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 22-Mar-2010 22:23:11
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Elite Member |
Joined: 8-Mar-2003 Posts: 3240
From: Sydney (of course) | | |
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| @yoodoo2
Hi Richard, great innovation.
I'd just like to agree with Shades about the inevitable changes that occur. Since changes will be occurring before, during and after the publishing process, I suggest that some means of replacing obsolete pages and sections be included. Most people don't have the tool to open spiral binders, but can easily manage a 3-ring binder that can be bought cheaply from the newsagent.
I would suggest that you supply the book in the form of A5 punched pages and the purchaser has to buy a binder for it. Then replacement pages and sections can be made available at a later date. It would be reasonable to charge for new material but distribute errata for free, I'd reckon.
_________________ cheers tony
Hyperion Support Forum: http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php |
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tonyw
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 22-Mar-2010 22:37:37
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Elite Member |
Joined: 8-Mar-2003 Posts: 3240
From: Sydney (of course) | | |
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| @yoodoo2
Thinking further about this: how are you going to address the copyright problems? If an OS4 developer like me writes a chapter, he would be using information that he obtained under NDA (the sources, for example) or taken from the SDK (which is Hyperion copyright).
How are you going to square that with Hyperion, the developers and the authors?
_________________ cheers tony
Hyperion Support Forum: http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php |
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BrandonLee
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 22-Mar-2010 23:19:02
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Super Member |
Joined: 15-Dec-2003 Posts: 1355
From: Lisbon, Portugal | | |
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| @Apple_hammer
The Schilt book are slammed not because of the way they are written (which is very subjective), but they are "said" to contain bad programming tips and techniques.
I bought one, just to see what the fuss was all about, and liked it. He writes in a way that is easy to understand. As for the actual content, I don't have knowledge to say if it's good or bad, but there seem to be too many guys around saying it's bad... |
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BrandonLee
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 22-Mar-2010 23:23:31
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Super Member |
Joined: 15-Dec-2003 Posts: 1355
From: Lisbon, Portugal | | |
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| Count me in. I'll buy aforementioned book without blinking. Always wanted to start coding, but without good reading material, it's next to impossible... |
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BrandonLee
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 22-Mar-2010 23:55:30
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Super Member |
Joined: 15-Dec-2003 Posts: 1355
From: Lisbon, Portugal | | |
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| @tonyw
I seriously doubt Hyperion would oppose something like that. Is there copyright to teaching skills you've learned, whatever the means?!? |
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TheAMIgaOne
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 23-Mar-2010 1:05:23
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Cult Member |
Joined: 10-Jan-2004 Posts: 776
From: United Kingdom | | |
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| @yoodoo2
Just received a quote from a printers (just wanted a eg price)
Page count 300 number of Colour Pages 10 Size A5
Wirobound edge
Fullcolor 300gsm gloss front cover
Quantity 100 per book £3.95 Delivery £22 Proof/Artwork £12
Quantity 1000 per book £3.51 Delivery £120 Proof/Artwork £12
Last edited by TheAMIgaOne on 23-Mar-2010 at 01:06 AM.
_________________ Cross-developer on Windows, OS3, OS4, Linux; Current Projects:- Nephele Cloud App OS4 UserProfile System OS4 AmigaOneXE OS4.1.6
TaoSoftwareBlog Youtube |
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Gebrochen
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 23-Mar-2010 4:32:24
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Super Member |
Joined: 23-Nov-2008 Posts: 1430
From: Australia | | |
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yoodoo2
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 23-Mar-2010 8:52:51
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Super Member |
Joined: 4-Aug-2003 Posts: 1333
From: Stourbridge, UK | | |
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| @tonyw
Thanks for your comments.
You're right that any book/printed material is going to be out of date one it gets to the printers. However, I feel there is a clear need for some sort of guide/tutorials using the existing material available.
I appreciate the point about using binders, but think that it would be better to produce a bound copy in the first instance - individual users could still transfer the pages to a clip-binder if they wanted to at a later date.
With regards copyright, as long as we are not copying sections of the SDK verbatim, I don't think there should be a problem. Individual writers will be creating their own exampes/apps using learned knowledge and adding explanations/discussion in their own words. I doubt the myriad of VB.Net books out there have to seek permission from MicroSoft.
However, all authors will need to sign disclaimers stating that their work is their own and that there will be no liability passed on to the OS4PG team for any of their own errors etc. This will be very similar to ones used in the magazine industry, where freelance writers retain copyright and responsibilty for their work.
Clearly, I would love OS4 developers to be involved, if not in the actual writing, then in perhaps providing clarification or examples of difficult issues or in commenting on near-finished sections. If they feel unable to provide specific details due to NDAs, then I will have to work with that.
It may be that once the book is "out there", additional or updated material is made available at a later date, perhaps online.
Obviously, I'd be very happy to talk to OS4 developers or Hyperion in private about the project. Last edited by yoodoo2 on 23-Mar-2010 at 09:00 AM.
_________________ Happiness is mandatory. MindSpace: MindMaps and UML diagrams for OS4
We ran 5 Recursion Computer Fairs before hitting the exit condition |
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abalaban
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 23-Mar-2010 9:19:14
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Super Member |
Joined: 1-Oct-2004 Posts: 1114
From: France | | |
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| @yoodoo2
Even without code examples some part of the OS remains very badly documented and really need clarifications. Unlike other in this thread I would gladly forget chapter about shell commands, mountfiles and such those parts were well documented in earlier OS version and they did not suffer so much changes currently, it's also IMHO not a topic related to programming (maybe there is a need for another book about general use of AmigaOS with advanced topics, but definitely not in a programming book, there are already too much things to cover without going out of the perimeter). Example of not so well (in depth) documented areas : handlers, devices, DOS packet, Boopsi/Reaction just to name few of them. I also think that even without going in depth it might be a good idea to refer to what is not considered good practise but was documented in what was considered reference in the days (RKM, Babel books, etc.) something similar to "unlike what was shown in XXXXX, Chapter YYY, it's now not recommended anymore to use ZZZZZZ, because WWWWW. As a matter of consequence now prefer using AAAAAAAAA" would be enough.
EDIT: Even if I'm interested in a book like that, I interested in something trustworthy , so I won't preorder it, and will probably wait until some "OS4 gurus" gave their opinion about it. Last edited by abalaban on 23-Mar-2010 at 09:21 AM.
_________________ AOS 4.1 : I dream it, Hyperion did it ! Now dreaming AOS 4.2... Thank you to all devs involved for this great job ! |
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gerograph
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 23-Mar-2010 12:26:31
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Cult Member |
Joined: 5-Dec-2007 Posts: 901
From: Moers - Germany | | |
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| @abalaban
Quote:
Unlike other in this thread I would gladly forget chapter about shell commands, mountfiles and such those parts were well documented in earlier OS version and they did not suffer so much changes currently, it's also IMHO not a topic related to programming (maybe there is a need for another book about general use of AmigaOS with advanced topics, but definitely not in a programming book, there are already too much things to cover without going out of the perimeter). |
Fair enough... depends once again on the "target group". These are my arguments for a chapter about command, mountfiles etc:
1. May attract more reades, than just a specialized progamming book -> better sell figures 2. maybe more people get convinced in programming C for our Amiga. Or lets say, gives us a wider "programming beginners" base. I would jump to C/C++ if there is a book which supports my first steps. In former times you didn't start of with RKMs did you ? 3. For new users of OS4.x we need a "standard book" like the OS3.9 book from Haage and Partner. Even though there where to much basics in there... 4. Maybe this helps to attract coders from other systems to contribute, if they see how easy it is and how much fun it is to code for OS4 (maybe it is not ??)
Arguments against:
1. becomes pretty big, and yes it is not a programming bible then... 2. maybe the "hardcore" advanced programmes might not buy it, because of lack of "internals" and "OS4 guru" knowledge.
I hold the opinion that such a book should generate more "Coders" than we have at them moment. This goal can not be reached, if you put up a "Hardcore OS4 developer guide...". But this is just my personal opinion, and I might be wrong, as I donnot really know how hard it is to jump over from Windows C/C++/C# to OS4 C/C++. Maybe I am only one of thousand who is willing to jump to C coding, if there is a basic tutorial...
greetings_________________ Geomarketing at www.geobiz.de www.gebietsplanung.net www.geomarketing-consultant.de |
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A1200
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 23-Mar-2010 12:30:51
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Elite Member |
Joined: 5-May-2003 Posts: 3114
From: Westhall, UK | | |
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| @TheAMIgaOne
Good prices, not prohibitively expensive at all - I think the book could easily sell a hundred to five hundred, a thousand? mmm maybe if more coders look to the Amiga in the future. _________________ Amiga A1200, 3.1 ROMs, Blizzard 1230 MKIV 64MB & FPU, 4GB DoM SSD, Workbench 3.1 |
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yoodoo2
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 23-Mar-2010 13:14:23
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Super Member |
Joined: 4-Aug-2003 Posts: 1333
From: Stourbridge, UK | | |
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| @A1200
Yep - the real cost is in terms of people's time.
I need lots more people to vounteer to write/produce some tutorial codes. There will be a (small) fee paid to each contributor.
_________________ Happiness is mandatory. MindSpace: MindMaps and UML diagrams for OS4
We ran 5 Recursion Computer Fairs before hitting the exit condition |
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abalaban
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 23-Mar-2010 13:25:11
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Super Member |
Joined: 1-Oct-2004 Posts: 1114
From: France | | |
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| @gerograph
Quote:
I hold the opinion that such a book should generate more "Coders" than we have at them moment. This goal can not be reached, if you put up a "Hardcore OS4 developer guide...". |
I totally agree but IMHO a programming book is not a Shell Book, using DOS commands and writing Mountlists has nothing to do with programming and, as I previously said, thoses things were pretty well documented before, and no so much changes have been done (new commands appeared but they are already documented in SYS:Utilities/Help, SYS:Documentation/#? files) so what's the point ? I would really prefer having two or three more advanced chapters instead focused on areas that never have been formally documented in depth, and for which one should dig into AmigaMail archives, old RKM from the 2.0 area, The guru Book dating 3.0 area, etc. (note that all of them are currently unavailable new and used they are not even at decent prices, ie they are sold more than what they worth new !!)_________________ AOS 4.1 : I dream it, Hyperion did it ! Now dreaming AOS 4.2... Thank you to all devs involved for this great job ! |
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gerograph
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 23-Mar-2010 14:11:51
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Cult Member |
Joined: 5-Dec-2007 Posts: 901
From: Moers - Germany | | |
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| @abalaban
Quote:
not a Shell Book, using DOS commands and writing Mountlists has nothing to do with programming |
If you say so..., what I mean is: Give a new coder to the system an Idea what it is about, and what the different parts are, how the system basically works, this might not include shell commands.
greetings_________________ Geomarketing at www.geobiz.de www.gebietsplanung.net www.geomarketing-consultant.de |
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whose
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 23-Mar-2010 14:34:31
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Cult Member |
Joined: 21-Jun-2005 Posts: 893
From: Germany | | |
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| @gerograph
Maybe this should covered by another book that explains AmigaOS in depth? I mean a book for users who want to know all the nifty little details "average Joe" doesnt ask for. Like some "Tips & Tricks around the Shell", if you wish so...
Advantage would be that this would left more pages for development topics that arent fully covered even yet and more pages for explanation of all the AmigaDOS caveats and tricks.
@yoodoo2:
Great idea, are you planning translations later on? I bet some German, French, Italian, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish and who knows what else language translation may help in getting more people to AmigaOS development.
Regards
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Trixie
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 23-Mar-2010 19:01:33
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Amiga Developer Team |
Joined: 1-Sep-2003 Posts: 2096
From: Czech Republic | | |
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| @yoodoo2
Quote:
I would love OS4 developers to be involved, if not in the actual writing, then in perhaps providing clarification or examples of difficult issues or in commenting on near-finished sections. |
Actually, I can't imagine NOT involving OS4 developers in that _________________ The Rear Window blog
AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition |
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Chris_Y
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Re: OS4 Programming Book Posted on 23-Mar-2010 19:31:31
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Elite Member |
Joined: 21-Jun-2003 Posts: 3205
From: Beds, UK | | |
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| @abalaban
Quote:
using DOS commands and writing Mountlists has nothing to do with programming |
I agree that Shell commands are nothing to do with programming (although knowing about the Shell and commands is very important for programming) and probably covered more than adequately elsewhere, but mountlists? You need to know about mountlists if you are writing handlers, filesystems, various .devices, just like you need to know about Datatype descriptors if you are writing Datatypes. Mountlists are an "advanced user topic" but also an "important developer topic" and should be covered in a programming book for that reason.
_________________ "Miracles we do at once, the impossible takes a little longer" - AJS on Hyperion Avatar is Tabitha by Eric W Schwartz |
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