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PosterThread
opi 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 9:13:29
#61 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@Hans

Quote:
I guess that one important tip for users of other platforms is that, yes, if an installer asks you where to install something, you really can install it wherever you like.


Yep. Maybe someone could put it as standard hint in Installer package? Something among the lines of "Install it anywhere, it makes no difference on AmigaOS."

PS. I don't want to start Editors Wars but you'd have to pry Vim from my dead hands.

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Hans 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 9:21:49
#62 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@opi

Quote:

opi wrote:
PS. I don't want to start Editors Wars but you'd have to pry Vim from my dead hands.


I don't want it, so you can keep your precious vim;.

Hans

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vidarh 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 9:23:41
#63 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@Hans

Quote:
There's Codebench for Amiga OS 4, and CubicIDE for 68K Amigas (although it works on OS 4 and MorphOS too). There's also another code editor in the works that's not released yet, although I don't know if it's still being developed, or what its current status is.


CubicIDE doesn't seem too bad in the stripped down configurations (I've yet to find a typical GUI based IDE I don't detest, which is one of the reasons I keep going back to Emacs), though it doesn't seem to have the multiple panes I'm heavily dependent on with Emacs (Ctrl X + 3 to split the current buffer down the middle, Ctrl X + 2 to split the current buffer straight across). I might take a look at it.

I suspect I'll end up using the Amiga ports of Emacs though.

Quote:
I've typically had trouble with "smart indenting." A little "smartness" to indenting is great, and saves time. However, I routinely have to fight with Visual Studio to get it to leave stuff where I put it.


The Emacs modes for the languages I used does this near perfectly. I simply won't touch an editor that don't do this as well as the Emacs modes does - it wastes too much time to have to deal with indentation.

Quote:
On the Amiga, Right-Amiga + b is the key combination to start selection of text. Right-Amiga + b again cancels "block select" mode. Even NotePad does this. If you're using a Windows keyboard with your Amiga, then the Amiga keys are the Windows keys.


Heh. There's another one for the Wiki. I'd completely forgotten about that one.

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vidarh 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 9:25:21
#64 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@nexus

Quote:
And VIM is great if you get used to it. I prefer it over emacs


Uh, oh, religious war starting in 3. 2. 1...

:)

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Raffaele 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 9:34:25
#65 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@emeck

Quote:

emeck wrote:
@opi

I see. Good then. You and many other people here can give very useful feedback for him.

Anyone up to the task of starting it? I´m not programmer and have no experience with wiki.


D'oh!

We of italian Amiga community were discussiing the same topics in these days, and I offered as volunteer to contact professor Bachard, and suggest him how to use AmigaOS and being a bridge between him and skilled Amiga programmers.

So it was said, so it was done.

I registered the site OOo4kids and started a talk with professor Bachard.

http://www.ooo4kids.org/index.php/User_talk:Eric_Bachard

I hope he will read the thread and contact me in the next few days.

Programmer Andrea AFXGroup Palmaté (who realized early portings of OWB, iODBC database standard, and mPlayer) has said he will help and is redy to make any cross-compiling scripts to let free the professor Bachard to program and compile Amiga software from his Linux installation, so he should find no anymore problems for not understanding AmigaOS.

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vidarh 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 9:39:52
#66 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@vidarh

Quote:
I'm setting one up now. Will post details once it's up.


Here's the (mostly empty) wiki. It's free for all to edit at the moment.... Hopefully we can make it stay that way, but I won't hesitate to restrict editing if someone starts making trouble.

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Nibunnoichi 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 9:51:11
#67 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Nov-2004
Posts: 969
From: Roma + Lecco, Italia

Finally, a usefull thread... i was getting tired of just lurking

This issue (OO4K port) is being currently discussed on an italian forum too but it briefly derailed thanks to our local FUD-spreader-child, anyhow a couple of interesting things emerged among the others, for example the fact that it seems the guy doing the port is now in contact with some AOS4 developers.

Back on the various topics at hand, i think it's obvious that if you use a system for 20 years it's easy for you but it isn't that obvious for the others, and this happens even when switching beteween the other major better known alternatives. Even when you go - for example - from Windows to Mac which is marketed as the easiest thing in the world.
As said by Opi, "intuitiveness" is just a marketing word, i believe the correct terms would be "affordances" and "discoverability".

I agree that some "heavy" documentation is badly needed and i'm happy that an effort is ongoing. Anyhow i think that a lot of the obstacles this guy encountered may be the classic case of not RTFM, which is kinda funny for a Linux guy
I say this because OS4 comes with a printed quickstart guide which you are supposed to read before installing it, especially if you're a total noob of the Amiga. Of course it is just an introductory guide and it doesn't go too deep but gives you the basics on installing and configuring your system (configuring the net among other things) and explains various keyboard shortcuts, keyboard+mouse combinations and even things that have different names on other systems (like "drawers").
Also, the SDK comes with a brief PDF explaining how to install it and test that the installation went ok.

The idea of a quick guide with pre-packaged utilities for those coming from Linux development experience is a good one, in this particular case it'd have been wyse to tell him that there is a bourne-derivative shell (even though it's far from complete) and ports of Emacs and VIM.


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Nibunnoichi 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 10:02:02
#68 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Nov-2004
Posts: 969
From: Roma + Lecco, Italia

@vidarh

I don't know if you're looking for just an editor or a full-fledged IDE, btw, for the editing part you can have a look at Annotate, it is multiplatform, quite configurable and open sourced.
It has "multi-slot" clipboard, a useful sidebar (it tells you where's the cursor when you scroll away from it for example), highlights changed lines and comes with syntax highlighting for various languages. Adding other languages is a matter of writing an XML configuration file (there's a small script to convert VIM syntax files, even though you have to adjust them by hand after they've been created. I've tested it with Modula-2 syntax which was lacking and i'm quite happy with the result).
It has some quirks here and there but i'm starting to like it. More info here

Regarding the wiki, i noticed that nobody mentioned amigawiki.com (i believe that's the correct address, i can't check right now).

Last edited by Nibunnoichi on 13-May-2010 at 10:05 AM.

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vidarh 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 10:09:29
#69 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@Nibunnoichi

Personally, I'm fine with emacs, I've used it for 15 years or so. Just that it's interesting to see if there are any more "Amigaish" editors around that could entice me away.

Re: Amigawiki.com, it seems dead... If the existing owner is interested in either taking a more active involvement, or handing it owner to someone who'll maintain it, or is responsive enough to requests for new accounts, then that's certainy an option.

Meanwhile I'm typing up a few notes on what I know (or think I know) and what I'd love more info on over at the one I set up at amigadocs.hokstad.com, and anyone else that wants to help out with it are welcome. There's big gaping holes in my current Amiga knowledge, so...

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SHADES 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 10:19:11
#70 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 865
From: Melbourne

@Thread

I don't care who ports software to AMIGA OS.
Personally, I believe the more exposure and people that do write outside of AMIGA, the better those SDK type tools will get or start to materialise, just out of need for them.

I don't like the single "windows" repository thing.

Never have, never will.

If I want to un-install a program because I no longer like it or want to use it, or change, I go to that program's directory and run the un-installer.
I know I can also do this with windows, well, most of the time.
The real problem with Windows is that 99% of the time, it leaves terrible footprints in my system, almost never un-installing properly from the registry and leaving files everywhere, anyway. I have seen up to 5 different versions of the same dll in various places! Even whole Directories on the system with their own files and installer still in them!

I liked AMIGA OS because I knew if I need a library for whatever reason it was in libs, a device was in Devs a handler was in L Prefs were in Prefs startup stuff was in S and so forth & I knew how to remove programs entirly.

Last edited by SHADES on 13-May-2010 at 11:25 AM.
Last edited by SHADES on 13-May-2010 at 11:24 AM.
Last edited by SHADES on 13-May-2010 at 11:23 AM.

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Raffaele 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 10:23:46
#71 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@Nibunnoichi

Quote:

Nibunnoichi wrote:
@vidarh

I don't know if you're looking for just an editor or a full-fledged IDE, btw, for the editing part you can have a look at Annotate, it is multiplatform, quite configurable and open sourced.
It has "multi-slot" clipboard, a useful sidebar (it tells you where's the cursor when you scroll away from it for example), highlights changed lines and comes with syntax highlighting for various languages. Adding other languages is a matter of writing an XML configuration file (there's a small script to convert VIM syntax files, even though you have to adjust them by hand after they've been created. I've tested it with Modula-2 syntax which was lacking and i'm quite happy with the result).


Shinkuro made NoWinED editor. It is a good editor whcih is able to open multiple files, just as like Emacs, but has a better Amigaish look&feel.

We could ask Shinkuro to add his program some basic development features such as syntax highlighting and smart indent depending from the language we choose to use. Then NoWinEd could became a discrete editor suited for programming.

http://shinkuro.altervista.org/amiga/software/nowined.htm

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vidarh 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 10:36:30
#72 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@Raffaele

Quote:
Shinkuro made NoWinED editor. It is a good editor whcih is able to open multiple files, just as like Emacs, but has a better Amigaish look&feel.


Tried it already. Didn't really like it. Also, as far as I know it *doesn't* have the ability to split the window the way I do. To explain better, I usually run my Emacs window maximized so it covers the screen. Then, whenever I want to cross reference what I'm doing with something else, I'll press Ctrl X + 3, and the window will be split in half, top to bottom, and I'll open a second file on the right hand side. When I'm done with it, I'll do Ctrl X + 1, and see only the main file again. That one feature saves me so much time compared to manually arranging windows that I'd be very unlikely to switch to an editor that doesn't have it (it can also do Ctrl X + 2 to split left to right, or use both at the same time)

But there is an Emacs port for Amiga, so I guess I'll take a look at that.

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Raffaele 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 10:43:28
#73 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@vidarh

Quote:

vidarh wrote:
@Raffaele

Quote:
Shinkuro made NoWinED editor. It is a good editor whcih is able to open multiple files, just as like Emacs, but has a better Amigaish look&feel.


Tried it already. Didn't really like it. Also, as far as I know it *doesn't* have the ability to split the window the way I do. To explain better, I usually run my Emacs window maximized so it covers the screen. Then, whenever I want to cross reference what I'm doing with something else, I'll press Ctrl X + 3, and the window will be split in half, top to bottom, and I'll open a second file on the right hand side.


These are secondary featues and could be added in further version, by asking the author with feedback issues and requests.

Last edited by Raffaele on 13-May-2010 at 10:44 AM.

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ShInKurO 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 10:46:43
#74 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2004
Posts: 465
From: Italy

@vidarh

Quote:

Tried it already. Didn't really like it. Also, as far as I know it *doesn't* have the ability to split the window the way I do. To explain better, I usually run my Emacs window maximized so it covers the screen. Then, whenever I want to cross reference what I'm doing with something else, I'll press Ctrl X + 3, and the window will be split in half, top to bottom, and I'll open a second file on the right hand side. When I'm done with it, I'll do Ctrl X + 1, and see only the main file again. That one feature saves me so much time compared to manually arranging windows that I'd be very unlikely to switch to an editor that doesn't have it (it can also do Ctrl X + 2 to split left to right, or use both at the same time)



Eheh, for now I'm busy with university, I'll implement it. Real problem is TextEditor MUI class doesn't handle tab character and so NoWinED is useless for makefiles.

In any case what you search is CygnusED, but it hasn't sintax hightlight.

If you have dubts you can read even my guide to amiga programming at :

http://code.google.com/p/guidetoamigacompatibleprogramming/source/browse/

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vidarh 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 11:12:49
#75 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@ShInKurO

That's great! I've added a link to your guide to the Wiki I set up.

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vidarh 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 11:18:24
#76 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@Raffaele

Quote:
These are secondary featues and could be added in further version, by asking the author with feedback issues and requests.


I'm happy to provide feedback. But those are not "secondary features" to me. As long as I have emacs, it'd take some truly amazing other features to get me to consider an editor without everything on the list I posted earlier. To me they are essentials.

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asymetrix 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 11:35:23
#77 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 868
From: United Kingdom

@thread

here is the EAB wiki

http://wiki.abime.net/

I think we should go through his list of problems and make a list with solutions.

If someone could start addressing things ahead of his progress we could half the time needed.

The wikki idea is great - with an army of users we could get it done in a few weeks !

A community effort would be fun and productive for everyone.

Last edited by asymetrix on 13-May-2010 at 11:44 AM.

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vidarh 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 12:10:17
#78 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@asymetrix

I've started, as best I can, given that 1) I don't have AmigaOS4 (I have a Minimig + an AROS and UAE setup on my laptop) and 2) I've been away for 12 years, so I'm in a similar position to him, though I did have an Amiga for more than ten years prior to that and thankfully I haven't forgotten everything

You can find my start here: http://amigadocs.hokstad.com/

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frotz 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 12:17:44
#79 ]
Member
Joined: 2-May-2010
Posts: 82
From: Currently Afghanistan

@Raffaele

Quote:

Raffaele wrote:

Shinkuro made NoWinED editor. It is a good editor whcih is able to open multiple files, just as like Emacs, but has a better Amigaish look&feel.

We could ask Shinkuro to add his program some basic development features such as syntax highlighting and smart indent depending from the language we choose to use. Then NoWinEd could became a discrete editor suited for programming.

http://shinkuro.altervista.org/amiga/software/nowined.htm


The thing about emacs and VI is that they are easily extended without reprogramming them. All of the smart indent and syntax highlighting features come from extensions to the editor. The language for doing this in emacs is called elisp.

Edit: Fixed layout, the URL parser treats bbcode tags as part of the URL and breaks. Please have a space or newline before the closing quote tag when quoting text finishing with a URL. - Zardoz

Last edited by Zardoz on 13-May-2010 at 01:45 PM.

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Zardoz 
Re: Open Office 4 Kids as case study
Posted on 13-May-2010 13:43:37
#80 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@SHADES

Quote:
I don't like the single "windows" repository thing.

Never have, never will.

If I want to un-install a program because I no longer like it or want to use it, or change, I go to that program's directory and run the un-installer.
I know I can also do this with windows, well, most of the time.


That's not what the guy means by "repository". What he means is a system similar to apt-get and ports, think OS4Depot with a system-side installer that gets any dependencies needed for what you want.

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