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      /  red vs blue: why?
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Rogue 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 15:28:13
#61 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@clebin

Quote:
Yes, that was a bad approach and not helpful. As per my previous post, can I ask if there's any technology in AROS which you might consider porting to AmigaOS and contributing back changes and/or bug-fixes, and perhaps even helping to improve? Honestly, I have no particular bad agenda in asking that.


I suppose you are referring to Gallium3D. Yes, we've looked at Gallium3D in the past and this is certainly the way to move forward in terms of 3D hardware acceleration. I am quite sure there will be overlap between AmigaOS, AROS and MorphOS.

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Rogue 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 15:33:26
#62 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@itix

Quote:
oh well, memories...


Almost said "good ole times", eh?

Quote:
And other camp never flamed anything? I have seen emails certain magic steffen was sending to Amiga companies supporting PowerUp So much fight for something which resulted in... nothing. After all PUP and WUP were only temporary solutions which maybe wouldnt exist if ESCOM didnt fail


Beg your pardon, but read again what I wrote. I have not claimed that it was only MorphOS/PowerUp supporters that flamed. I merely said that I got flamed by the blue trolls (I'd like to avoid saying 'camp' because, let's face it, it is mostly a minority within these camps). Sure there had been flames from the red trolls, I am quite sure that a lot of supporters of MorphOS had to endure similar crap than I had, which ranged from suggesting homosexual relationships with Fleecy up to death threats.

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Apple Hammer 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 15:39:32
#63 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Jan-2010
Posts: 130
From: Unknown

@Rogue

Quote:
I bet there is a large number of people foaming over their keyboards right now when they read that, calling me all sort of things and proposing all sort of uncomfortable places where I can stick this post.


I like to think that this statement is not quite true. In fact, I would rather believe that there is a very small minority of people foaming over their keyboards at your posts. Sure, it seems like there's a lot of them because they shout loud about it all the time and are prolific on the forums, but that doesn't make their actual numbers any greater. It is my experience that it is the same people (from both sides) doing it time and time again.

I like to think that the vast majority of the community are not part of this stupid troll war. It certainly is possible, because for example I would generally consider myself to be in support of OS4 but I bare no malice at all to AROS or MorphOS, and you will never see any post from me attacking those systems, on any forum. I would like to think that most of the community, regardless of what they support, share this same attitude. But because they don't shout all over the forums, perhaps their numbers seem smaller than they really are.

AH.

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eliyahu 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 15:43:30
#64 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1767
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@Rogue

Quote:
Rogue wrote:

Beg your pardon, but read again what I wrote. I have not claimed that it was only MorphOS/PowerUp supporters that flamed. I merely said that I got flamed by the blue trolls (I'd like to avoid saying 'camp' because, let's face it, it is mostly a minority within these camps). Sure there had been flames from the red trolls, I am quite sure that a lot of supporters of MorphOS had to endure similar crap than I had, which ranged from suggesting homosexual relationships with Fleecy up to death threats.

rogue: since you have a unique insight to all of this as one of the key OS4 developers, your input here has been very helpful. i still see vicious stuff out there, although not quite as bad as apparently it once was.



would you say that the 'split' and animus that resulted therefrom was mostly a fight over who could call themselves the 'legitimate' successor to the 'classic' amigaOS (v3.1)? i certainly sense that from both sides, but i don't know if that is the root cause: that one camp was able to call itself 'amigaOS' and the other not and the war over legitimacy (and/or perceived superiority) has ranged ever-since?

-- eliyahu

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Fab 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 15:47:08
#65 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2004
Posts: 1178
From: Unknown

@eliyahu

It has more to do with what you can read in the links ruud gave ealier.

Last edited by Fab on 28-Jul-2010 at 03:49 PM.

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clebin 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 15:47:47
#66 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1692
From: Cardiff

@Rogue

Thanks for the answer. Gallium3D is certainly one of things that sprung to mind. The Nouveau drivers as a whole would be a great way to keep pace with the bigger platforms, and pool our resources on what gets ported to the 3 platforms.

Well, I wish you all the best of luck and a good, helpful response should you decide to go down that route.

Chris

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Gleng 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 15:52:18
#67 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Posts: 1071
From: Blighty

@Rogue

Thanks for your posts, Rogue, its nice to know that the core developers realise that not everyone is a troll these days.

I say this as a MorphOS user who's also looking at buying a Sam. All I'm looking forward to is a time when the arguments stop and all we talk about is the cool things we've done with our computers.

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clusteruk 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 16:02:06
#68 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2008
Posts: 1502
From: Marston Moretaine, England

@Gleng

Amen

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opi 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 16:07:50
#69 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@eliyahu

Quote:
would you say that the 'split' and animus that resulted therefrom was mostly a fight over who could call themselves the 'legitimate' successor to the 'classic' amigaOS (v3.1)?


No, I don't think so. Legitimacy was just one of the argument. This was, as I said, a matter of style and direction.

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Zylesea 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 16:45:48
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2098
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@Rogue

Quote:

Rogue wrote:
"better" or "worse" are very subjective.

I don't care what they do. I want a good product, and not copy another.

It is not so much about copying, but about competition. You should always know your competitors (and all Amigaish flavors actually compete with each other, threads like this are evidence enough). But I think you actually do.
And while there is often much trouble in the fora, I guess the competition actually *also* contributes to motivate improvements.

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Ruud 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 17:05:36
#71 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jan-2009
Posts: 144
From: Hampshire, UK

@Rogue

Quote:

Rogue wrote:

"better" or "worse" are very subjective.

I don't care what they do. I want a good product, and not copy another.


Well yes "better" or "worse" can be subjective in some cases like which is the best way to layout the system preferences for example. However not all.
Could somebody (other than DAX) really argue that Workbench is a better desktop than Ambient?
Ambient copies many ideas from DOpus Magellan with a fairly good end result and few are complaining. So taking inspiration or copying from other products isn't always a bad idea.
Anyway, virtually none of the new features added to any of the three "NG" Amiga OS's have been entirely original and not seen on other OS's. So like everyone else you've been copying and applying your own slant to existing ideas and features. Unless I'm very much mistaken. Which i'm not.

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Leo 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 17:37:58
#72 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1586
From: Unknown

Quote:

There's no going back. There is not going to be any reunion. It just drifted apart, and nobody will want to give up what they have. And why should they?

Because other people may do better work than you did ? (a scoop...) ?
If I wanted to have a product as good as possible, and someone was writing the very same thing that was better I'd consider using it instead of coding my own... I can easily accept people doing better work than mine... Seems to me you care more about *your* product.

PS: To clarify myself, I'm not saying OS4 is badly written, I'm just giving a reason to why you could give up what you have...

Because that would prevent from wasting resources on implementing the very same thing ? (yes, cause since you don't care/know what MorphOS people have been doing, I'll tell you: they wrote the exact same things you have been writing, porting the very same applications. And both OS are so close than a little wrapper (OS4Emu) is enough to run some OS4 applications, without a single change)

Having alternatives in case of Linux is good: Ubuntu has a different goal than, say, Gentoo.

But what's the difference between MorphOS and AmigaOS 4 ? If they don't have the same goal, it seems they are taking the very same road ;) Same API, same applications, same OS, same enhancements (the day one "camp" come with 3D, the other one starts implementing it as well: this go for 3D compositing, 64bit,...).

Quote:

"better" or "worse" are very subjective.

When looking at obligement review, it's not subjective, it's a fact: MorphOS is faster than OS4 in pretty much every aspect. Or let me correct myself: it *was* a fact at the time of the review...

Looking at history, it seems to me that their *own* satisfaction seems to be more important that the Amiga's future... We wouldn't have ended having the same OS for such a long time.

In the history, some projects also diverged like this one: the whole KHTML/Webkit comes to my mind... but in the end they decided to merge. Because this was stupid, and both projects were having the same goal, and were implementing the same things.

The question is: what do you want ? AmigaOS4 ? MorphOS ? Or the best of both plus some applications ?

Maybe defining both AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS's goals would be a good start. I never saw that done before... If I don't see anything it will either means that they don't know it themeselves, or that they are afraid to admit they have the same goal...

Last edited by Leo on 28-Jul-2010 at 06:32 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 28-Jul-2010 at 06:31 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 28-Jul-2010 at 05:39 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 17:41:29
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8900
From: Unknown

@Leo

Quote:
The question is: what do you want ? AmigaOS4 ? MorphOS ? Or the best of both plus some applications ?


I want Amiga computer powered by AmigaOS...

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Snuffy 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 17:50:04
#74 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Oct-2005
Posts: 1121
From: Michigan, USA

@ eliyahu
if you feel you can describe the events leading to this breakdown, without resorting to insulting one side or the other, please reply...

Well, ISTR, when Commodore-Amiga went 'belly-up' , legality of Amiga OS and 'intellectual property' became an issue of new owners of the API and stagnation of the OS. The 'dark ages' - 1995-2000 is when Amiga actually 'morphed' into another Amiga system lead by rebel forces that became MOS. Laws, users, and new lords of the OS created the schism that led to the red and blue towers. See "Lord of The Rings- Two Towers"! The ONE ring to rule them was lost!

I bought the AmigaONE in 2002 thinking it was the ONE to restore the rule, but that was a naive thought. With the advent of the third tower going up - AROS, I'm kind skeptical of anything Amiga now. It sure isn't what Amiga was twenty-five years ago.

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DAX 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 17:58:53
#75 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@Ruud
Quote:
Could somebody (other than DAX)

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BigBentheAussie 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 17:59:24
#76 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2003
Posts: 1690
From: Melbourne, Australia

Well, at the end of the day there are more similarities between the systems than differences.
There are pros and cons to every system...and a heck of a lot of these are the same.

I believe that the OS people should do what they're best at.
They are providing the foundation, and as important as that is, it is the third party software and the pace of that development that makes the biggest difference at the end of the day.

If there was a superior and viable open source API that could work on all the Amiga-like systems then ALL of the users of all the systems would be better off, and every "camp's" software successes would be everyone's.
The OS3 API is the lowest common denominator between the systems, but that might not be appealing to developers any more.
If an API could be created that was superior and across all platforms then you would want to use it over the OS specific one and be able to share the fruits of your labour across all Amiga-like systems. (Maybe even 68k too)
Instead of having a thousand users here and a thousand users there, there would be thousands of users all together, all pulling in the same direction in regard to software.
A more viable software eco-system (or even a market) could be created by a common software platform, as distinct from an OS platform.
We would be united in cause!!!
Going further than an API, some sort of JIT compilation like Amiga Anywhere had, or closed source processor agnostic pre-compilation, could totally re-unite all the platforms to common software goals and new heights for ALL Amigans.
HELL, I WOULD GET BEHIND THAT BOUNTY IN AN INSTANT!!!
That is the only way we can all be winners.

I really wish some people would understand that you do not promote development, in our little eco-system, of any kind by belittling people's efforts regardless as to whether it is to your immediate benefit.
Sometimes I wonder why any of these Amiga platform entities bother, with the way various people behave on these forums and react to their hard earned efforts and investments.
You don't think they could be trying to create something Amiga fans could like do you? (rhetorical)

Also, you are unlikely to convince someone, who has already shelled out good money for an Amiga-like system, that they need or want a different system. It is utterly ridiculous and futile to try and it just gets people arguing for argument's sake.

It's like we all like ice-cream, and someone argues that Strawberry or Chocolate or Vanilla is better. All we really want is an ice-cream factory!!!!!!! If there is more Chocolate sold, or more Vanilla, who cares!!!! You're perfectly welcome to say you like Strawberry, when I like Chocolate, but there is no point in putting Chocolate down because it is chocolaty (if that's word?).

There does not have to be one winner!!!
If it was set up right every Amigan would win, even on the outside chance one OS bolted away and became dominant.

Do you realise how ridiculous the Amiga community looks to outsiders when the camps get religious? That hardly inspires people to join up does it?
An Amiga system is for fun. Have fun!! Have fun together!!!
Why take it soooooo seriously?

Last edited by BigBentheAussie on 28-Jul-2010 at 06:14 PM.
Last edited by BigBentheAussie on 28-Jul-2010 at 06:12 PM.
Last edited by BigBentheAussie on 28-Jul-2010 at 06:10 PM.
Last edited by BigBentheAussie on 28-Jul-2010 at 06:05 PM.
Last edited by BigBentheAussie on 28-Jul-2010 at 06:01 PM.
Last edited by BigBentheAussie on 28-Jul-2010 at 06:00 PM.

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Jupp3 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 18:02:49
#77 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1209
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:
Quote:
The question is: what do you want ? AmigaOS4 ? MorphOS ? Or the best of both plus some applications ?



I want Amiga computer powered by AmigaOS...

Did you buy a windows box with AmigaDE?

(Yes, I know you are going to argue "it's not OS!1!1", so for arguments sake, make it "some totally Amiga-unrelated random linux distro skinned to look like Amiga")

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balis 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 18:27:33
#78 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2005
Posts: 138
From: Lille

This red vs blue thing does not mean anything for me since i got back in the Amiga World recently.
I find it's stupid because we are an endangered species.

Whatever push forward any flavour push all flavours.
Gallium is an example, Mplayer another and there are many more : OWB, Blender, SDL games, AE, etc.

What is good for Amiga OS 4 is good for MorphOS or AROS and vice versa.

When i got back to Amiga, i've started with AmigaOS4 and now i am more and more interested in MorphOS as well.

Everybody should have in mind that we are bound by the same destiny.

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Leo 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 18:34:39
#79 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1586
From: Unknown

Quote:

I want Amiga computer powered by AmigaOS...

Care to define "Amiga computer" ? Cause it seems it could be anything.

Care to define "AmigaOS" ? Without any mention to the name or the sources of course: I'd like to know what defines "AmigaOS" to you...

Last edited by Leo on 28-Jul-2010 at 06:35 PM.

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DAX 
Re: red vs blue: why?
Posted on 28-Jul-2010 18:38:43
#80 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

can (you know who you are) avoid transforming this thread into another "we are way better than you" cr*p?
It might help the conversation you know...

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