MUI is perhaps the only valid API for UI which identify the Amiga out of Amiga community: who has used AmigaOS between 1993 and 2001 (when Amiga community was very powerful and was able to mantain in life our platform) knows all most useful Amiga applications were written in MUI and old developers remember how was fun and easy to write a program with MUI.

Who has left Amiga community was inspired by MUI experience to written many projects which are used in other platforms. When OS3.5 was annunced without MUI many developers left Amiga community because for them MUI was an important part of the Amiga experience.

So we can state MUI is an historical piece of AmigaOS like IPC ARexx and Datatypes concepts.

MUI APIs are avaiable in all Amiga flavours in different forms and versions:

OS3 : MUI3.8
OS4 : MUI3.9
Mos : MUI4
AROS: Zune (MUI3.8 compatible)

However, excluding MorphOS, MUI is a shareware framework, which in form of not register software doesn't give to user some of its features (extreme personalization of UI).

Zune is an open source implementation of MUI which is included in AROS project, it is compatible with MUI3.8 APIs and it has some features which are missed on MUI3.8. In the latest years Zune was ported from AROS to AmigaOS3, and so the only MUI registered features and Zune modern features can be used on OS3 for free.
Zune is even ready to be ported on OS4.

Many OS4/AROS/OS3 users are interested to have software like OWB-MOS and Ambient on their systems, but these software use new API of MUI4, so the better way to have these software on OS4/AROS/OS3 would be to have MUI4 on these systems.
However MUI author seems not to be interested to do a port of his latest framework version to OS4/AROS/OS3, so only MorphOS users can use these software and only MorphOS developers can use MUI4 for their software.

We want create a bounty to make Zune MUI4 compatible. In a similar form Zune can give to their users software like OWB-MorphOS and Ambient with few work on system where Zune is avaiable.
To third parts developers a Zune MUI4 compatible would give an easy way to write their software in a easy portable way between different Amiga flavours without too much work because they could use a only powerful framework API instead to workaround different behaviours of MUI3.8/MUI3.9/Zune.

This Zune enhancement would be very good even for an eventual port of Ambient on AROS/OS3/OS4 and to make Ambient in this way what DirectoryOpus Magellan was for AmigaOS some years ago.

Differences between MUI3x and MUI4

So we have a first draft of a bounty "To make Zune MUI4 compatible":

FIRST STEP
Quote:

1) Debug current Zune codebase and,where possible, improve existing MUI 3.x compatibility adding missing functions and fixing current broken features: proper MUIA_ShowMe handling + redrawing, Implementing MUIM_Application_Save/Load for most of classes, Dataspace class/Import/Export, etc...; 2) Implement in Zune MUI4 functions and features needed to compile Fab1's OWB": 3) implement new API of Dtpic class; 4) to move List class and its child from Area children to Group children and implement all new features and APIs of these classes; 5) implement Title class; 6) implement new API of Family class; 7) implement new API of Area class; 8) implement new API of Group class; 9) implement new API of menu classes; 10) implement Process class ;

SECOND STEP
Quote:

- Implement MUI4 functions needed to compile latest nightbuild of Ambient;

THIRD STEP
Quote:

- Implement remaining functions of MUI4 in Zune. - Porting on OS3 and OS4: it should give to user a choice to be installed as "plugin support for MUI3.x" (like AfA_OS and its promoter) or substitute MUI at all;

Other discussions about this topic are:
http://www.amigans.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4230&post_id=55128#forumpost55128
http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5044&forum=2&post_id=45752#forumpost45752

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@ShInKurO

Sounds all very interesting and you seem to be very well researched on this topic.

When I grew up using Amiga through my school years I remember distinctly MUI being a big part of the AmigaOS experience along with Directory Opus I especially loved Magellan.

I am not well versed on the systems put in place with AmigaOS 4.1 but isn't REACTION suppose to replace what MUI use to do?

I wish the guys from Hyperion would weigh in on topics like this and others like it to flesh out the almost mystical "ROAD MAP" to the future of AmigaOS4.1.

If there is no plan for things like a Flash pluggin to arrive with Timberwolf then I welcome the concept of ZUNE and Fabs OWB with MUI API pluggin for flash.

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Having bug-free realisation of Zune which will growup to MUI4 level for aos4 and aros will be pretty cool. Imho we should make a bounty, which will mean support of aros and aos4 => then bounty will be increased fast and working together its much more productive.

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@Fairdinkem

Quote:

I am not well versed on the systems put in place with AmigaOS 4.1 but isn't REACTION suppose to replace what MUI use to do?

When in 2002 I've aquired my A1 (on which I've developed until now) and I didn't know very well Amiga development I believed in the same things of you. However, even if Reaction has done many steps forward from OS3.9, it isn't actually comparable with MUI3.8 in many areas, for example Reaction4.1 haven't a proper API for d&d of their objects (have you in mind how you can configure Firefox toolbar or my NoWinED toolbar? on Reaction you cannot do that in a easy way because it misses of that feature). API to remove and add object at runtime (for example Firefox/NoWinED find bar) was added to Reaction4.1 only an year ago while MUI has all these features from 1996-1997 (so they are enough tested and bugfixed).

Even MUI notification concepts is very clear and easy to understand and to use in comparison with Reaction. And many other things makes IMO MUI better than Reaction, but this is not the topic to write about that (if you are interested I suggest to read this: http://www.amigans.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2528&forum=24 ).

I can only tell you an advantage on all these features: when you write a software in MUI you can see your software on OS3,OS4,AROS and MorphOS, so you have a big user base and a fast bugtrack/bugfix.
The only our big problem actually is to fight against different MUI versions.

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Well, make Zune MUI4 compatible would be really nice.

But say that "MUI was Amiga" is really exaggerated. It is (was) most successful and best available GUI toolkit for Amiga till today, nothing more or less.

@ShInKurO

I completely agree with you that MUI is an amazing tool that should have stayed in development.

The point I made earlier about how I wish Hyperion would weigh in on this is to explain why did they drop MUI in favour of REACTION because I as an in experience user cannot see the advantages of such a move. Hyperion really has the answer to this question to enlighten us to the road map to the future of AmigaOS and the implementation of REACTION.

MUI4 has proven to be extremely powerful in MorphOS.

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Amiga A500 - PiStorm EMU68
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@Fairdinkem

Quote:

If there is no plan for things like a Flash pluggin to arrive with Timberwolf then I welcome the concept of ZUNE and Fabs OWB with MUI API pluggin for flash.

Plugins are already supported on OWB-OS4 and maybe it can work also in Timberworlf Alpha, real problem is that a standalone flash plugin doesn't exists (yet)

Having said that, a bounty like this is always welcome but IMHO there are somethings to consider

1) The default GUI on OS4 is Reaction/Workbench, so an eventual Zune/Ambient port must be considered only as an optional choice

2) We are not forced to port the entire framework for having OWB-MUI on OS4, first we need a good developer/s that can convert the remaining MUI4 calls into MUI 3.9 ones

It's not an impossible job !

3) This Zune project requires time, so it is better to split the bounty, one bounty for the framework port/improve and another one as priority for the standalone OWB-MUI porting (on OS4 and AROS)

Just my 2 cents

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@ShInKurO

What I don't really want to see on OS4 is more than one GUI toolkit and one type of desktop, with some programs using one solution and others another. The OS should follow one direction, so there should be one official interface, and the rest of the OS should be developed to support it.

As you are promoting Zune to be the de-facto toolkit for OS4, I'm afraid I don't support your idea. Just to make things, from an user point of view (not from a developer one, yet) I also see advantages of MUI over Reaction, and the cross portability is sure a bonus. But all of this should be included in OS4's roadmap, so that we can continue to have a coherent OS. The Friedens have already stated that they are not interested in MUI, and that they are planning to follow another path (could it be XUL?), or are still searching for one.

Take also the following in account:

- porting Zune to OS4 will possibly need workarounds to make it work, as the OS4's design development might not fit MUI's one well, and this might make things worse in the future when the OS' design developes more.
- during the 90's the situation was different, but now we have too few developers to justify the development of two concurrent different toolkits.

If I would have to give some money for a new toolkit, I'd rather give it to the one who will design the next OS4 one, whatever it will be.

IF, and I say IF, the Friedens will change their idea and decide to adopt Zune, and develop OS4 according to this plan, then I'm all for it. Only that at the moment this seems unlikely to happen.

Varthall

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AmigaOne XE - AmigaOS 4.1 - Freescale 7457 1GHz - 1GB ram

@Varthall

Quote:

Varthall wrote: should be developed to support it. As you are promoting Zune to be the de-facto toolkit for OS4, I'm afraid I don't support your idea. Just to make things, from an user point of view (not from a developer one, yet) I also see advantages of MUI over Reaction, and the cross portability is sure a bonus. But all of this should be included in OS4's roadmap, so that we can continue to have a coherent OS. The Friedens have already stated that they are not interested in MUI, and that they are planning to follow another path (could it be XUL?), or are still searching for one.

Can you refine your statements?

It seems to me that Shinkuro want to made Zune compatible with MUI4 and -STOP-.

Where is the point in which he said that Zune should became the de-facto toolkit for OS4?

I did not see that in the topic...

_________________
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@Fairdinkem

Quote:

The point I made earlier about how I wish Hyperion would weigh in on this is to explain why did they drop MUI in favour of REACTION because I as an in experience user cannot see the advantages of such a move. Hyperion really has the answer to this question to enlighten us to the road map to the future of AmigaOS and the implementation of REACTION.

Because at time of OS3.5 develop, Stunz (MUI's author) didn't give to H&p (developers of OS3.5+) right to control MUI at all, he want be the only one who have rights on its creation, so they had choosen another framework they could controll at all. It is/was a simply policy choice. Users and 3th parts devs have lost a good and valid framefork for AmigaOS for this.


@samo79&Varthall

Nobody here want make MUI/Zune an obliged choice for third parts developers, but we want make it as a first choice for third parts developers who want develop software for all Amiga flavours without too much compatibility problems which we meet today.

We leave Reaction to their fans and to who want develop software only for OS4 (OS4.0 or OS4.1?).
I identify myself as an Amiga user and developer, not only as an OS4 user and developer, so I'm not interested to wars against different users fan bases (red/blue/black).
When I develop an Amiga software I think for all Amiga flavours, not only for OS4, and as me many devs do this kind of develop.
We are help a lot by MUI APIs, however there are many incompatibilities between different MUI versions, and a Zune MUI4 compatible version help a lot us, and help a lot many users because many softwares will be avaiable to their systems.

@samo79
Quote:

1) The default GUI on OS4 is Reaction/Workbench, so an eventual Zune/Ambient port must be considered only as an optional choice

DirectoryOpusMagellan was the default choice? Write me where I've written in this topic Ambient should be a default choice for OS4 please.

Quote:

2) We are not forced to port the entire framework for having OWB-MUI on OS4, first we need a good developer/s that can convert the remaining MUI4 calls into MUI 3.9 ones

Fab has just reply to you:
Quote:

I don't think i'd like to have tons of "duplicated" code in OWB just because previous MUI versions didn't support methods for construction/display and co, for instance.

Do you know how to read this statement? read between lines please.


@Varthall
Quote:

I also see advantages of MUI over Reaction, and the cross portability is sure a bonus.

I see advantages even for users because many Reaction4.1 features are missed in Reaction4.0, so for example some of few good things of OWB-Reaction are missed for AmigaOS4.0Classic users, or I miss something?
This is right to be clear. But I don't want do a flame.

As I've pointed before, this is a topic about a bounty, if you are favor to this bounty write in this topic your ideas.

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@ShInKurO

Quote:

Do you know how to read this statement? read between lines please.

Off course, i've read it, that quote was the Fab's reply at my question when I ask him about the possibility to include some #ifdef into the main source

He refuse and I can understand him 100%, but this doesn't mean we are "forced" to bring MUI4 or make an up-to-date Zune replacement on OS4 in order to port OWB

The scope are different

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@samo79

Quote:

but this doesn't mean we are "forced" to bring MUI4 or make an up-to-date Zune replacement on OS4 in order to port OWB The scope are different

It wouldn't be a series of #ifdef as you write, but it means to implement from scratch MUI4 clone code of classes which are missed on MUI3.x.

What are the advantages to implement from scratch a clone code of MUI4 into OWB-MOS code to have this software on OS4 when implementing the same clone code into Zune means to have OWB-MOS on AROS/OS3/OS4?

Your soulution is the same taken until now and we now have 4 OWB version (2 sdl versions on AROS and OS3, and cairo versions, one on OS4 Reaction based, and latest one on MorphOS MUI4 based).

As we have just explained you before, the better way is to have a same base (MUI4 APIs) on 4 Amiga flavours and in this way you will have your OWB-MOS in easy way.

@ShInKurO

I have misunderstood you for the "Zune as main toolkit" part, sorry about that, and I see now I was off topic with my post.

Varthall

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@ShInKurO

That's ok but in what time ?

6 mounths, 1 year, 2 years ?

Maybe in 2011 will will have Firefox 4 up and running so we need a relative quick solution for now, also going to the solution you propose needs an integrate solution on future OS4 CDs, i don't know you but personally i don't like to come in a situation that force me to install separately Zune on OS4 just to be able to install a software like OWB later

This must be solved in a light way, that means we must drop MUI 3.9 completely and replace it with a newer Zune implementation, Damato, Thore and all people that is actually involved in MUI-OS4 will agree ?

Don't get me wrong, i don't have any problem with this Zune port, actually my problem (as user) is only browser related, the only MUI4 software that I need right now is a good browser (and OWB MUI it is)

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@ShInKurO

Without MUI4 clone, if we just take the list example (there are of course other cases), it wouldbe done either by replacing some methods with hooks (very intrusive change), or by implementing of list subclass adding the missing functionality, meaning less changes to the OWB files (of course doing that is a bit the same as improving MUI/Zune, but i'm not sure it's doable with a subclass, to be seen).

And in my previous comment, i meant that the only AROS/OS4 specific changes i would accept to integrate in my sources would have to be well separated and not intrusive, so that it doesn't require too much additional work when I add features to OWB. If some changes have to be intrusive, then the AROS/OS4 porters are free to do it, but on their copy of the source tree. And just for the same reason, I'd never think about asking opensource projects (mplayer, mame, scummvm, ...) to integrate intrusive MorphOS changes.

Last edited by Fab on 21-Aug-2010 at 02:43 PM.

@Varthall

Quote:

What I don't really want to see on OS4 is more than one GUI toolkit and one type of desktop, with some programs using one solution and others another. The OS should follow one direction, so there should be one official interface

One official interface does not mean everyone will be willing to use that interface.

Quote:

- during the 90's the situation was different, but now we have too few developers to justify the development of two concurrent different toolkits.

That's already the case - people still write MUI/Zune apps. But the situation right now is that people who want to develop for AOS4 *and* one of the other OS's either have to restrict themselves to whatever works in Zune and MUI 3.8 *or* waste a lot of resources maintaining a different GUI for AOS4.

The cost in terms of developer time of that is in the long run going to be massively higher than bringing Zune up to MUI 4 compatibility.

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@Fab

Quote:

And in my previous comment, i meant that the only AROS/OS4 specific changes i would accept to integrate in my sources would have to be well separated and not intrusive, so that it doesn't require too much additional work when I add features to OWB. If some changes have to be intrusive, then the AROS/OS4 porters are free to do it, but on their copy of the source tree. And just for the same reason, I'd never think about asking opensource projects (mplayer, mame, scummvm, ...) to integrate intrusive MorphOS changes.

That's exactly what I want point out thanks

@vidarh

Quote:

Quote: What I don't really want to see on OS4 is more than one GUI toolkit and one type of desktop, with some programs using one solution and others another. The OS should follow one direction, so there should be one official interface One official interface does not mean everyone will be willing to use that interface.

That's true, what I was referring to was about a situation where two or more interfaces are official/semi-official and programs are more or less equally using each one of them.

Quote:

Quote: - during the 90's the situation was different, but now we have too few developers to justify the development of two concurrent different toolkits. That's already the case - people still write MUI/Zune apps. But the situation right now is that people who want to develop for AOS4 *and* one of the other OS's either have to restrict themselves to whatever works in Zune and MUI 3.8 *or* waste a lot of resources maintaining a different GUI for AOS4.

I was referring to people developing and maintaining the interfaces/toolkits itself.

Quote:

The cost in terms of developer time of that is in the long run going to be massively higher than bringing Zune up to MUI 4 compatibility.

That's true, but that's valid only for those who develop on more than one Amiga flavours.

Varthall

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@Varthall

Quote:

That's true, but that's valid only for those who develop on more than one Amiga flavours.

Different POV
Try to develop an UI with d&d of its elements like firefox, thunderbird, NoWinED, Voyager, AmRSS... with Reaction, or a complex MDI UI (and not a '90 UI with 20 opened windows) and we will see how MUI will become your only choice

Sorry for OT!

@ShInKurO

You are also right, at least from what I have heard from you and others :)
BTW, speaking of Firefox, that would be true if it would be rewritten to use MUI/Reaction, but since it runs under XUL, isn't the support or not of d&d by MUI/Reaction irrilevant in this context? Wouldn't you have to implement d&d directly tothe OS4's XUL implementation?

Varthall

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