@itix

Quote:

ClassAct was project of Amitrix (AWeb developers) who donated source code to H&P.

I've missed this... so the only one programmers who in past has used ClassAct/Reaction in a big program were the same ones develop this framework... it had a really great success into Amiga community

@itix

Hmm... was classact really the work of amitrix??? I recall that the classact GUI toolkit had its own webpage where users could download and install it for free while developers had to pay for it.

Check this readme:

http://aminet.net/package/dev/gui/ClassAct2Demo

Also as you can see it's published by Finale Development, Inc who had several internet software written using GUIs made with classact.

@ShInKurO

Quote:

I've missed this... so the only one programmers who in past has used ClassAct/Reaction in a big program were the same ones develop this framework... it had a really great success into Amiga community

Only MUI makes it possible

Last edited by itix on 24-Aug-2010 at 07:30 AM.

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@ShInKurO

I think you're wrong and yes there where some programs using classact/reaction that I liked a lot. ClassAction is one of them, a very nice filemanager. I also used some e-mail program, newsreader, AmiFTP etc. I don't know if you're knew to the amiga or if you didn't like software back then but either way you shouldn't talk about things that you know nothing about. I don't know why some people does that but it's damn anoying. It just shows that you don't know #### about amiga since you haven't been here all the time but you must be engaged in discussing, talking crap.

If you don't know or are uncertain, be quiet! Or at least don't do statements sounding like you know for a fact what you're talking about when that's not the case.

@hotrod

Humm... maybe you are right:

http://www.amitrix.com/amigahistory.html

Quote:

We would like to especially thank: (...) Finale Development and Christopher Aldi for Class Act/Reaction.

So it is my memory failing for me

Their website is even there. I guess I mixed it with Finale Web Cruiser.

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@itix

Finale Web Cruiser seemed really promising back then. Too bad it was never released though.

@hotrod

I think ClassAct and MUI were almost always like opposite camps (or ideologies as they work differently). Those who liked MUI didnt like ClassAct and vice versa.

Quote:

Finale Web Cruiser seemed really promising back then. Too bad it was never released though.

There is no working screenshot of FWC on Finale Development website but from thumbnails it looks very similar to AWeb...

Last edited by itix on 24-Aug-2010 at 07:59 AM.

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@ShInKurO

Personally, I think if you really want to have a common UI framework for cross-platform applications? Then it'd be a lot more constructive if people focused on something that's already open. And by "open" I mean not based on a proprietary technology controlled by a single commercial entity. Leave the platform specific UI frameworks on their respective platforms instead of creating a new flash point for partisan arguments.

Given its Amiga origins, I'd vote for Feelin. Or if you want something even more cross-platform, then I'd say go with wxWidgets.

Last edited by ShadesOfGrey on 24-Aug-2010 at 08:16 AM.

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@ShInKurO

I totally agree with your bounty proposal.

I see the benefits:

1st - There is a large number of programs on AmigaOS (in all flavours) that use MUI. From old programs in the nineties to more recent and still developed ones in the present - SabreMSN, NoWindED, WookieChat, Scandal...)

2nd - Some programs use diferent UI's to work in diferent platforms (Cinamon Writer - comes to mind) making the development work more complicated. Having a common denominator for cross-platform aplication dev is a visible advantage.

3rd - Bug-fixing current ZUNE to fully support MUI3.8, making existing source be more portable through amigaOS diferent flavours (without dirty quirks and work arounds), and improve current development of Zune tools on the AROS and it's portability to other OS (wanderer).

4th - Enhancing to MUI4, would mean that it would uniform the existing programs to a higher version giving the ability for more features. Also would open the doors to porting other existing software such as Ambient and Fab's OWB (Wich a large number of people regard them as superior).

5th - Would also mean that enhancing the UI framework would become a more effective cooperative work between diferent platforms, and having the rest benefit from that work (as oposed to having AROS development only to mainly )

6th - Would mean more focus on projects and complementary work/interchange of source (OWB springs to mind but not only that)


I really would like that MUI4 would become Open Source that would totally make the task easier, but as it stands, it's better not hope for the highly improbable.

So this bounty looks like a great idea to me. And as for the GTK-ZUNE wrapper, it exists on AROS, but part of its incompletion it's due to some of the ZUNE bugs and lacking. But if you want a working proof of concept, just look at Janus E-UAE in AROS - it's GUI is based on the GTK one.

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@ShadesOfGrey

Yep. I would go for Feelin for ALL 3rd party software that is proposed to be ported to all three flavours. It's fresh and it shouldn't have all that political "side effects".

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@itix

Quote:

There also existed MUI 3.9 for 68k but it was never released to the public. I know many notable Amiga developers had it in late 90s.

Indeed there was, I have it sitting here on my 68060 A4000, along with the 68k, and obviously pre-PPC version of AmigaOS 4.

I've just booted it up to check after 4 years and it still works, albeit a bit slow, but it does look nice having all the OS4 themes, anti-aliased fonts, MUI3.9 and other things on 68k... actually, I bet it would fly on a x86 machine! Hmm

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@ShadesOfGrey

Quote:

Personally, I think if you really want to have a common UI framework for cross-platform applications? Then it'd be a lot more constructive if people focused on something that's already open. And by "open" I mean not based on a proprietary technology controlled by a single commercial entity. Leave the platform specific UI frameworks on their respective platforms instead of creating a new flash point for partisan arguments. Given its Amiga origins, I'd vote for Feelin. Or if you want something even more cross-platform, then I'd say go with wxWidgets.

I don't want flame about Feelin or any other framework but: even if a framework is a beautiful, open, modern, etc... if it is not used by many programs then it's an HOLE for a series of tecnical reasons I can't explain in few lines.

MUI is not only is one of most advanced framework on the Amiga platform (the most advanced one?), but the most important thing is it has an history of bugfix and APIs behaviour is very well known.
Zune in the latest years has done big steps forward because many Amiga software which are done for MUI now are executable with Zune and so we have fixed so many Zune bugs you have no idea at all. Zune in few time could substitute MUI3.8 at all...

Now I leave you to do 2+2 about Feelin, Reaction, stormwizard, etc...

Even if they are IMO worst than MUI, the fact they aren't used by many programs and they have not many classes as MUI (even opensource ones) makes these frameworks bad in absolute.

Last edited by ShInKurO on 24-Aug-2010 at 11:14 AM.
Last edited by ShInKurO on 24-Aug-2010 at 11:09 AM.

@ShadesOfGrey

Quote:

Given its Amiga origins, I'd vote for Feelin.

The state of the currently available version of Feelin is broken and incomplete. It'd need significant work to be usable unless something major has happened in the last 3-4 months since I looked at the code.

Quote:

Or if you want something even more cross-platform, then I'd say go with wxWidgets.

You'd end up with something without the Amiga feel - wxWindows doesn't feel native on any platform, IMHO. If you're willing to go there, then porting QT or GTK would be far better given the amount of software that would become easier to port if you have a QT or GTK implementation.

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@ShadesOfGrey / ShInKurO / vidarh

Also - I don't think any other API has enough influence to become the de facto choice for developers. For all its faults, MUI/Zune is the only one with the history and existing application base to get a consensus.

It's a bit like the early days of AROS. There was years of fruitless discussion about the best way forward and no code written. In the end they had to take a pragmatic approach and follow OS 3.1.

We all know the downsides of that - but if they hadn't taken that tough choice, AROS probably would never have existed.

Developers can get newer APIs later on. But surely the #1 priority right now must be to share apps and unite the platforms to make them stronger?

Chris

Last edited by clebin on 24-Aug-2010 at 12:39 PM.
Last edited by clebin on 24-Aug-2010 at 12:38 PM.

@ShInKurO

Indeed. Feelin had some nice new ideas about xml and using id instead of pointers (or something), but there's 0 (yes, zero!) application using it, except the demos and prefs program itself.
You can be sure you would find tons of issues in any new application using it. Besides, it wasn't stable, and lacked much in basic functionality too.

So feelin is no option at all, in my opinion. Improving MUI/Zune with some of the Feelin idea would make more sense.

Reliability is essential in a toolkit, and that's what MUI offers. And that includes knowing its limitations/bugs, too, which is better than finding new limitations/issues in a totally unknown toolkit.

@Fab
Still no bounty? : )
We need it!

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@Tomppeli

Quote:

I've never bought MUI license and don't know what is included in it. But if I bought it years ago I would not buy it for Motorola 68000 CPU or CPU family. I would bought it for AmigaOS. So if the license grants I can get any number of future updates for AmigaOS then I would definetly expect to get the latest MUI version for the latest AmigaOS version. Be it running on any CPU out there.

Would you seriously consider it fair to demand port to f.ex. Amiga Anywhere, just because Amiga inc. decided to call it "AmigaOS" at some point?

Anyway, as for OS4, I believe your 68k version (or just its keyfile) should work on OS4. I highly doubt there was any mention of "lifetime support for anything that could be called AmigaOS"

Last edited by Jupp3 on 24-Aug-2010 at 01:54 PM.

@phoenixkonsole

I don't know MUI well enough for that, really. I can use MUI for the needs of my applications, but improving MUI3.8/Zune to MUI4 level is quite a different thing.

@Fab

Quote:

ndeed. Feelin had some nice new ideas about xml and using id instead of pointers (or something), but there's 0 (yes, zero!) application using it, except the demos and prefs program itself.

And those parts (XML + using id's) could easily be cleanly layered on top of MUI as an entirely optional library for app developers that wants it, similar to what libglade does for GTK for example.

After having looked at the Feelin source I suspect that'd actually be less work than bringing Feelin to an advanced enough state.

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@vidarh

Any suggestion for second step of bounty?

Anyone has sent a mail to Stunz to ask him about MUI future? Any Reply?