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Lou 
Re: New Laws of Physics - Gravito-Electromagnetism without big-bang collaboration
Posted on 27-May-2011 14:21:37
#281 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

To add further 'weight' to AstroPhysicist:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110527/sc_afp/australiaastrophysicsscience

What are filaments you say?
http://spaceweather.com/glossary/filaments.html

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T-J 
Re: New Laws of Physics - Gravito-Electromagnetism without big-bang collaboration
Posted on 27-May-2011 15:42:38
#282 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@Lou

Quote:
...and T-J does an epic fail... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_(physics)


Not CreationWiki this time, then?

As for 'epic fail', if you read what 'Astrophysicist' claimed, and if you read that wikipedia article, you'll notice some basic discrepancies. Primary among them is that wikipedia has a referenced claim that the universe is mostly plasma contained in stars, whereas 'Astrophysicist' claims based on no referenced source that the universe is 99.999% plasma, both in stars and spread out in an intergalactic field of conductive plasma.

It is precisely because we can detect plasma that we know that there isn't a field of it permeating the entire galaxy. Plasma is the most common form of matter in the universe, yes. But its all contained inside stars, not drifting between galaxies.

'Astrophysicist' believes there is plasma permeating the entire universe. And of course, to make your EM equations work (not that you've provided us with any worked examples, of course), you have to assume that its there, even though no interstellar/intergalactic plasma field has been detected.

That is what I mean by an 'undetectable plasma', and that is why your hypothesis is no better than Dark Matter.

The reason why we don't totally reject Dark Matter is because its supporters have been able to provide a mathematical model that more accurately describes the universe using it.

When/if they provide evidence for it, it'll stop being a hypothesis and become part of the theory.

The reason why we totally reject your hypothesis is because you have failed on both those counts. No better mathematical model, and no evidence.

Epic Fail, in other words.

Last edited by T-J on 27-May-2011 at 03:49 PM.

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T-J 
Re: Nibiru, what if ? - part 2
Posted on 27-May-2011 15:50:52
#283 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Mike, you're quoting primitive cultures' creation myths as if they were historic fact again. I would just like to suggest that possibly this is why we're rapidly losing our respect for your opinions.

With all due respect to the Sumerians or the Hopi or whoever else you'd like to dredge up, their beliefs really have no relevance whatsoever. You might just as well be quoting the South Pacific Cargo Cults as valid interpretations of the universe. Or like Lou, seeking your answers in Genesis on CreationWiki.

And I would again like to invite you to respond to the geological evidence raised against the existence of Nibiru, presented in post 172.

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Lou 
Re: New Laws of Physics - Gravito-Electromagnetism without big-bang collaboration
Posted on 27-May-2011 17:43:45
#284 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@T-J

Quote:

T-J wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
...and T-J does an epic fail... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_(physics)


Not CreationWiki this time, then?

As for 'epic fail', if you read what 'Astrophysicist' claimed, and if you read that wikipedia article, you'll notice some basic discrepancies. Primary among them is that wikipedia has a referenced claim that the universe is mostly plasma contained in stars, whereas 'Astrophysicist' claims based on no referenced source that the universe is 99.999% plasma, both in stars and spread out in an intergalactic field of conductive plasma.

It is precisely because we can detect plasma that we know that there isn't a field of it permeating the entire galaxy. Plasma is the most common form of matter in the universe, yes. But its all contained inside stars, not drifting between galaxies.

'Astrophysicist' believes there is plasma permeating the entire universe. And of course, to make your EM equations work (not that you've provided us with any worked examples, of course), you have to assume that its there, even though no interstellar/intergalactic plasma field has been detected.

That is what I mean by an 'undetectable plasma', and that is why your hypothesis is no better than Dark Matter.

The reason why we don't totally reject Dark Matter is because its supporters have been able to provide a mathematical model that more accurately describes the universe using it.

When/if they provide evidence for it, it'll stop being a hypothesis and become part of the theory.

The reason why we totally reject your hypothesis is because you have failed on both those counts. No better mathematical model, and no evidence.

Epic Fail, in other words.

Breaking news: T-J rejects anything he doesn't agree with!
In other related news: The sun again rose today.

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T-J 
Re: New Laws of Physics - Gravito-Electromagnetism without big-bang collaboration
Posted on 27-May-2011 18:50:53
#285 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@Lou

How about addressing what I'm actually saying, rather than making claims about what you wish I was saying?

I reject hypotheses which fail to reflect the evidence. That's because I use the scientific method.

Your plasma hypothesis requires us to assume the existence of a field of plasma in between the stars and galaxies, a field we have no evidence for. This assumption is needed so that you can have an excuse to multiply observed EM interactions by the required factor of a thousand to explain observed motion.

This is no better than the dark matter hypothesis, and in fact falls short even of that standard as its supporters have yet to present here a mathematical description of this plasma field, or any potential experimental method to detect it. The only advantage it has over the dark matter hypothesis is the coincidence that it happens to chime more closely with your faith regarding the nature of magnetism.

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Lou 
Re: New Laws of Physics - Gravito-Electromagnetism without big-bang collaboration
Posted on 27-May-2011 22:36:07
#286 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@T-J

Quote:

T-J wrote:
@Lou

How about addressing what I'm actually saying, rather than making claims about what you wish I was saying?

I reject hypotheses which fail to reflect the evidence. That's because I use the scientific method.

Your plasma hypothesis requires us to assume the existence of a field of plasma in between the stars and galaxies, a field we have no evidence for. This assumption is needed so that you can have an excuse to multiply observed EM interactions by the required factor of a thousand to explain observed motion.

This is no better than the dark matter hypothesis, and in fact falls short even of that standard as its supporters have yet to present here a mathematical description of this plasma field, or any potential experimental method to detect it. The only advantage it has over the dark matter hypothesis is the coincidence that it happens to chime more closely with your faith regarding the nature of magnetism.

In that case you are a hypocritc.
The case for gravity involves fiction.
The case for EM is equal to the observed formations of many galaxies.

Let me help you out:
Quote:
James Clerk Maxwell however guessed, that maybe this became a modified type of space--an "electric field." Under certain conditions, a varying electric field can also carry an electric current, through empty space. For instance, an electric current can flow through empty space between the plates of a capacitor. That is a device for storing electric charge, and in the simplest case, consists of two parallel metal plates, with empty space between them. Ignore for now the details and theory, let it just be said that if the voltage of one plate (that is, the level of its electric field) rises or falls rapidly, the voltage of the other plate is "dragged" up or down to match the changing values. It can be shown that a variable electric current then flows between the plates, through the empty space. The faster the change, the more efficient is the generation of such a current.

Maxwell guessed that this unusual electric current, flowing through "empty space," can also generate magnetic field, just like the flow of a current in a wire. He called it a "displacement current" and included it in his formulation of the fundamental equations of electricity.

He then modified the above chain of cause-and-effect, to

Changing magnetic field -- > changing electric field -- >
changing magnetic field -- > changing electric field -- > and so on

With the displacement current replacing the ordinary electrical current, theory predicted that electromagnetic waves could exist in empty space. Those waves spread in 3 dimensions like sound--except that where sound contains pressure variations along the direction of propagation, the electromagnetic wave contained variable electric and magnetic fields perpendicular to the direction of propagation, a bit like the jiggling of Jello.

Unlike sound, it was sensitive to electrical properties--for instance, a good conductor of electricity tended to reflect the wave rather than let it pass (hence mirrors). The wave spread with the velocity of light (which turned out to be related to measured properties of electricity and magnetism) and Maxwell guessed it was light. From that he deduced some laws of reflection, and also explained the polarization of light. Then came Hertz, and radio, and the rest as they say is history.

Can you say "epic fail"?

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tomazkid 
Re: New Laws of Physics - Gravito-Electromagnetism without big-bang collaboration
Posted on 27-May-2011 23:47:17
#287 ]
Team Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 11694
From: Kristianstad, Sweden

@Lou & Nimrod

Cool down thank you.
Agree to disagree when you need to, don't start flamewars.

This is a very interesting thread, just a few days ago we did survive a "doomsday" according to an US preacher who got world wide attention, don't spoil it.



Here they debate if the Earth is flat, on Iraqi TV, who dares to tell him that Earth is not flat?

And BBC reports they have discovered 17 new pyramides in Egypt, apparently we have a lot left to "discover" ( " " = discover as in things we have forgotten ).

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T-J 
Re: New Laws of Physics - Gravito-Electromagnetism without big-bang collaboration
Posted on 28-May-2011 0:12:09
#288 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@Lou

Quote:
In that case you are a hypocritc. The case for gravity involves fiction.


No, the complete theory describing gravity involves a number of hypotheses that have yet to be confirmed in order to achieve greatest accuracy. But using the theory without those hypotheses is accurate enough to put men on the moon, satellites around Jupiter and probes beyond the heliopause.

When we remove unproven hypotheses from your EM theory, it is out by a factor of greater than 1000. I vote we stick with the gravity stuff, its clearly much more useful.

Quote:
The case for EM is equal to the observed formations of many galaxies.


Making that claim without reference is pointless. Demonstrate that this is the case, or link to a reputable, peer-reviewed article that does so.

If you can't do either one, you're just preaching your faith. Again.

Quote:
Can you say "epic fail"?


Lou, did you even read what I actually posted? Or are you just being obtuse to try and get a reaction now?

It is clear from what I posted beforehand that science already knows about the propagation of EM through empty space.

It is precisely because we know this that we can tell you this propagation is thousands of times too weak to account for the observed motions of the planets and the galaxies.

Your EM hypothesis is out by several orders of magnitude.

So, you and 'Astrophysicist' have to invent a plasma field filling '99.999%' of the universe to give you an excuse to stick 'x 1000' on the end of whatever equations it is you use.

Epic Fail.

Last edited by T-J on 28-May-2011 at 12:22 AM.
Last edited by T-J on 28-May-2011 at 12:20 AM.
Last edited by T-J on 28-May-2011 at 12:15 AM.

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Lou 
Re: New Laws of Physics - Gravito-Electromagnetism without big-bang collaboration
Posted on 28-May-2011 1:36:05
#289 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@T-J

You admitted to accepting unproved theories and I am full of fail?

Here is a theory: galaxies formations flow like plasma.
The evidence: look at galaxies. OMG! They do.
Stars are plasma. Moving plasma creates EM fields. Stars are 99.999% of known matter in the universe. Who would have thunk that EM was everywhere?

I told you 100 times gravity is an estimated side-effect using estimated 'almost-as-good-as' 'constants' for this star system. These same 'constants' have been proven to do an epic fail outside of this star system when observing other systems.

So yes, simpleton calculations can launch a rocket into this local space but as I have also linked to you previously, the farther out they go, the farther off trajectory have they gone.

Voyager 2 passed the termination shock into the heliosheath, approximately 1 billion miles (1.6 billion km) closer to the Sun than Voyager 1 did. BUT BUT BUT gravity is evenly distributed base on distance, right?....or WRONG! This is due to the local interstellar magnetic field(you know, that force so weak that it can't do squat, right??) of deep space. The southern hemisphere of the solar system's heliosphere is being pushed in.

The termination shock is the point in the heliosphere where the solar wind slows down to subsonic speed (relative to the star) because of interactions with the local interstellar medium. This causes compression, heating, and a change in the magnetic field (recall I told you heat EM can induce heat, don't believe me? Then throw out your microwave because it clearly doesn't work!). In our solar system the termination shock is believed to be 75 to 90 astronomical units from the Sun. In 2007, Voyager 2 passed through the Sun's termination shock.

The shock arises because solar wind particles are emitted from stars at about 400 km/s, while the speed of sound (in the interstellar medium) is about 100 km/s. (The exact speed depends on the density, which fluctuates considerably.) The interstellar medium, although very low in density, nonetheless has a constant pressure associated with it; the pressure from the solar wind decreases with the square of the distance from the star. As one moves far enough away from the star, the pressure from the interstellar medium becomes sufficient to slow the solar wind down to below its speed of sound; this causes a shock wave.

So this interstellar medium carries EM... So where was the all powerful gravity when Voyager 2 experience termination shock? But SUPRISE! EM was certainly there... Perhaps at 75AU gravity goes on vacation and EM clocks in overtime, eh?

/fail in the epic scale

I read what you say but all you do is recite Newtonian Physics 101 like Nimrod when it's only works locally and not universally. You two are like the kids that refuse to believe Santa Claus isn't real. That said, there will be presents under the tree every year, right?...

Please recite a passage from your Newtonian 101 bible/garbage... Our readers are waiting with bated breadth!

Oh and don't forget to say "but you've proven nothing" even though it applies to you more so.

Last edited by Lou on 28-May-2011 at 02:46 AM.
Last edited by Lou on 28-May-2011 at 02:29 AM.
Last edited by Lou on 28-May-2011 at 01:43 AM.
Last edited by Lou on 28-May-2011 at 01:39 AM.

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Lou 
Re: New Laws of Physics - Gravito-Electromagnetism without big-bang collaboration
Posted on 28-May-2011 2:14:05
#290 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@T-J

I know you like to harp on MikeB about Post # 172 in this thread, but back in the original thread, I mentioned Tiahuanaco as an OOCity...which ofcourse you ignored like the plague. Infact, its inhabitants when it was discovered by the Spaniards didn't even claim to be its builders. It's estimated at 17,000 years old... and has stones that were diamond-cut as well as staples that were molded in place using molten metal. Not bad for cavemen, eh? Oh and co-incidentally, Sitchin does mention such a vast city being built in the western hemisphere by the Niburians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_NjY7MqPCw

Pay particular attention starting @ 1:40

Must have took alot of string... /super-mega-epic-fail

Last edited by Lou on 28-May-2011 at 02:42 AM.
Last edited by Lou on 28-May-2011 at 02:39 AM.

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Astrophysics 
Re: New Laws of Physics - Gravito-Electromagnetism without big-bang collaboration
Posted on 28-May-2011 3:28:11
#291 ]
New Member
Joined: 24-May-2011
Posts: 2
From: Unknown

Plasma sizes increase from: stars, ISM, Galactic bubble corona, IGM, WHIM, and Hot IGM. The ISM pervades all space between stars, and is 30-70% Hot ISM. The IGM contains rarefied plasma 6 protons per cubic meter that forms vast permeating filamentary structures. The Hot IGM connects largest known gravitational bound structures called galaxy clusters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronal_cloud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/galaxy_filament The IGM is mostly empty space, but contains over 90% "normal matter" in the Universe. Danforth detected the WHIM in the IGM http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2010MNRAS.407.1581S http://casa.colorado.edu/~danforth/research.html Taotao Fang states "the WHIM is difficult to detect being so diffuse and easy to see right through." "We see through it all the time, it is readily transparent not obscured like most things." The WHIM is believed to be in ALL large-scale structures in the Universe http://sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100511122745.htm Groups of galaxies and clusters form at dense knots in these WHIM filaments http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0511621 Galaxies are surrounded by WHIM filaments, and the debate on the interpretation of observations is still ongoing. Overdense WHIM filaments connect galaxy groups and clusters http://physics.ucdavis.edu/Abstracts/T.Fang.html Emission filaments are the higher density part of the WHIM residing at the outskirt of clusters http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009arXiv0903.3066L Nearby interstellar cloud IC5146 contains networks of filaments where stars form. All 90 filaments seen have consistent widths of 0.3 light years across says Dr Andre, where they see stars form like beads on strings. This is strong evidence for connection between interstellar supernova turbulence winds and filaments http://sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110413101751.htm Galaxies like stars also line up like beads on strings, with their spin axes aligned with the filaments that outline voids http://Universe-review.ca/F03-supercluster.htm Gas moves from the photoionized IGM into galaxies to form stars http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/bib_query?arXiv:1005.2421 Gas often accretes onto galaxies via filaments, and galaxy formation depends more on how galaxies lose gas via outflows as opposed to gravitational star formation laws, says Oppenheimer, who adds "I believe most astronomers still find this heretical." http://luca.as.arizona.edu/~oppen/IGM/research.html Pfrommer shows strong coherent magnetic fields where galaxies are sweeping up field lines as they orbit inside the Virgo cluster, a first technique that shows the magnetic field is radially oriented around galaxy clusters. http://cita.utoronto.ca/~pfrommer The dark energy expansion of the Universe is based on a mere 4% visible matter by receding galaxies, but most of the mass in the Universe is in filaments, and most filaments are in the IGM containing metals permeating between galaxies. http://iopscience.iop.org/0004-637X/697/2/1784

Undetected Plasma ?? The Universe, not just stars, is 99.999% plasma. New telescopes are being built to observe it. Taotao Fang said he looked right through the filament to see it, and it stretches millions of light years in length, connecting together the sculptor wall of galaxies with a blazar and huge black hole. The debate on interpretations continues, but the evidence will continue to grow, and the big-bang theory will become obsolete.
http://HologramUniverse.wordpress.com


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Nimrod 
Re: New Laws of Physics - Gravito-Electromagnetism without big-bang collaboration
Posted on 28-May-2011 9:52:47
#292 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

Dark matter, and Dark energy are not some mysterious "different" form of matter and energy, they are merely matter and energy that are, as yet, unidentified. Previous "candidates" have been monatomic Hydrogen, and Carbon in the form of Buckminster Fullerene. If it should turn out that the entirety of what is now called dark matter is later analysed as 30% Hydrogen, 30% Carbon, and 30% Paperclips& bellybutton fluff, It does not mean that 90% of dark matter has been transformed, it simply means that there is only 10% left to identify.

@Astrophysics
Quote:
1. Base your conclusions on the evidence. Not vice versa.
2. Measure objectively, not guess selectively.
3. Back up statements with evidence. Claiming something to be a fact does not make it a fact.
4. Use large sample numbers for statistical analysis.
5. Use blind sampling for tests
6. Tests must include control groups.
7. Cite your sources of information.
8. Sources must be reliable, verifiable, and backed with evidence.
9. Opinion is not fact
10. No false evidence.(don't cheat)

Your second post definitely passes point #7, and although I haven't had time to fully check all of your sources to the level of a peer review, your total failure to quote Nancy or Zecharia, gives me confidence that point #8 should likewise cause no problems.
Quote:
and the debate on the interpretation of observations is still ongoing.
Quote:
The debate on interpretations continues, but the evidence will continue to grow,
That is what the scientific principle is all about, and point #1 can definitely be your friend, as evidence growth can either set you up on to the high ground, or bury you.

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Nimrod 
Re: Video evidence presented in support of a fraudsters "theory"
Posted on 28-May-2011 11:58:01
#293 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@Lou

I did not fail to respond to this "evidence" , I merely treated it with the contempt that it deserved.The statues at Tiahuanaco are statues depicting a person with a fairly "flat" face as wide as it is tall. The Easter Island sculptures are shorter bodied with a very long face having no "hat", A prominent brow ridge, flared nostrils, and protruding lips.
From 1:40 in your "evidence" presented by Giorgio Tsoukalos. First a few details about Giorgio Tsoukalos.
Quote:
Tsoukalos has been the director of Erich von Däniken's Center for Ancient Astronaut Research for over 12 years

Quote:
Some also question von Däniken's credibility, as he has also knowingly put forward fraudulent evidence to advance his hypotheses, such as photographs of pottery "depicting UFOs", supposedly from an archaeological dig dating back to the biblical era.

So we have a man employed by a proven fraudster presenting a supporting statement for the fraud, prior to introducing a statement from the fraudster. (Items #8 and #10 on my list)
From 2:30 in your "evidence" Has nobody ever heard of the term "earthquake"?
The only comments in this entire video that made any rational sense were those made by Todd Disotell
Over here in Europe we have structures built by the Romans that were assembled from materials brought in from the furthest reaches of the Empire, simply to demonstrate how great and far reaching that empire was. The fact that the Roman Empire later disappeared from these shores does not mean that Caesar got in to his flying saucer and went home to Zeta Reticuli. The Roman Empire collapsed as a result of a combination of internal failures, and external "uncivilised" pressures. During the subsequent "Dark ages" many great cathedrals and castles were built throughout Europe. Accountants of the day recorded the names and payscales of the stonemasons who did the work, and while some of their methodology was not recorded, you can be certain that the presence of a flying saucer lifting huge blocks of masonry would not have gone unnoticed.

Quote:
It's estimated at 17,000 years old... and has stones that were diamond-cut as well as staples that were molded in place using molten metal

I will leave it for people better acquainted with geological dating techniques to poke holes in the 17,000 year fallacy, but the assertion by Giorgio Tsoukalos that the stones were diamond cut is not proof that they were diamond cut.(Item #9 on my list)

Last edited by Nimrod on 28-May-2011 at 12:50 PM.

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BrianK 
Re: New Laws of Physics - Gravito-Electromagnetism without big-bang collaboration
Posted on 28-May-2011 12:22:24
#294 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

Faithful Alien Worshippers : Last night I watched the first episode of History Channel's: Ancient Aliens I think you'll find this backs up your guesses and would be enjoyable. Praise be to Stichin!

Scientific proof is the best approximation of truth crowd: It'll make you throw up in your mouth while trying to climb out of dung pile of opinion is fact approach. Lots of logical falsehoods and leaps of faith are left on the table for your acceptance. I started counting but after about two dozen in the first 5 minutes I figured this show was a proof itself of how an infinite amount of objects can fit into a finite space and stopped.



Last edited by BrianK on 28-May-2011 at 12:27 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 28-May-2011 at 12:24 PM.

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Kronos 
Re: New Laws of Physics - Gravito-Electromagnetism without big-bang collaboration
Posted on 28-May-2011 12:50:47
#295 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2553
From: Unknown

@BrianK

[quote]
BrianK wrote:
History Channel's: Ancient Aliens

Directly followed by "Aliens and the Third Reich".


Now can someone please call Godwin's law on this thread ?

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Nimrod 
Re: New Laws of Physics - Gravito-Electromagnetism without big-bang collaboration
Posted on 28-May-2011 12:52:38
#296 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@BrianK

Quote:
Faithful Alien Worshippers : Last night I watched the first episode of History Channel's: Ancient Aliens

You have my deepest sympathy.

Nimrod

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BrianK 
Re: New Laws of Physics - Gravito-Electromagnetism without big-bang collaboration
Posted on 28-May-2011 13:35:57
#297 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Nimrod

Quote:
[quote ]Faithful Alien Worshippers : Last night I watched the first episode of History Channel's: Ancient Aliens
You have my deepest sympathy.[/quote] Thanks. I was giving Lou and MikeB the benefit of doubt and hoping the series would fill in some explainations that they might be missing. Afterall I know I don't know this stuff perfectly and perhaps the Ancient Alien Faithers might not either. Oh so sad to find out I was wrong. Lou and MikeB could write an episode of this program. There's no refund for a wasted hour of one's life. (So if anyone was wondering where I went that last line might enlighten you.)

Last edited by BrianK on 28-May-2011 at 01:37 PM.

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MikeB 
Re: Nibiru, what if ? - part 2
Posted on 28-May-2011 14:24:26
#298 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@T-J

Quote:

Mike, you're quoting primitive cultures' creation myths as if they were historic fact again


I am far from an expert on native American believes, but I think there are things of interest to this thread.

Quote:
The Rainbow Dream Vision of Turtle Island
Prophecies of the Native Americans
Transcribed from a tape by Harley Swiftdeer in April 1983

Part 1
The time of the creation of the teachings of the eight great powers and the introduction and the giving back to humanity of the Twenty Count. The Starmaiden Circle and the Flowering Tree teachings which began the evolution of the distribution of the wheels and keys of the esoteric teachings of the North American Indians of Turtle Island. It was the time that the major beginning keys and wheels were given away.

Part 2
The time of the planting of the light seeds of the Hokseda, the higher self. Many teachers of the eight great powers began to plant their seeds of light about the development of the higher self and began to open the teachings of the Rainbow People, also known as the Meti - mixed blood - the Rainbow People.

Part 3
The time of fertilisation, the time of planting, the time of going within these seeds of light in order to see the potentiality, the road map that a person can use. In the Turtle Island lore we say it is the time of finding one's path with heart.

Part 4
The time of fruition, the time of seeking perfection, growth and development. Most importantly this is the time of trust and innocence as being totally open, when people are listening and teachers are talking to teachers. When mythologies of the world and all eight great powers are finally revealing secrets and the teachings within the mythologies are brought out into the open.

Part 5
The critical time, the time of the animal. The time of Tuwalananie, the dark force. The reason for this is that for several years seeds of light have been planted and we are starting to grow and the teachings are starting to come out and all those ones inside each of the eight great powers who have taught partial truths, who have taught deliberate lies in history, who have used their power to gain followers, to gain disciples, to gain devotees, are going to be threatened by the awakening of the Rainbow People because the Rainbow People exist in every country, in every nation, in every land. The dark forces will be threatened and they will use their power and their power exists in technology. We are going to see some of the strongest technological advances known to humanity occurring at this time and these very technological advances are going to be a tremendous threat as well as a blessing to the survival of humanity. We must exert our influence, the sun dancers, the rainbow people, by gathering together and sharing our ideas and plans for solar power and for world peace. If we put a double amount of energy with what we are for, we can change it.

Part 6
The time of human to human communication. The time the human family finally starts to become human, if we get through the dark time. Then there will be more information brought out into open format than has ever been seen on this planet in the first fifty thousand years. Because soon we will re-establish contact in a very knowledgeable way with our ancestors from the stars. So mark that down because it will happen. The first wave will come from the Pleiades and will be totally acknowledged and will be known to all the world powers. The second wave will come from Sirius.

Part 7
When Tagashala and the enlightened teachers begin to open the veil of the crack between the worlds, we will see our memory circles. All kivas and sacred power spots will come alive and be totally awakened. The inner room of the great pyramid will be opened. Many of the teachers, leaders and ceremonialists that are so-called traditional, but are trying to keep us locked in the past, will not function today, will fall. Many teachers and wise people will be seen for who they are and they will be the farmers, the labourers and the gas station attendants because the Tagashala will be fully awakened.


Part 8
Many people will begin to awaken in their dream mindbody. 144,000 enlightened souls will sit down in gathering together circles. Many of these will be the so-called common people and not the teachers you see up there now. On August 17, the various Winged Serpent Wheels will begin to turn, to dance once again and when they do the Rainbow lights will be seen in dreams all over the world and these Rainbow light dreams will help awaken the rest of humanity.

Part 9
We will sit in a new circle of law. Civil and social law will tumble. All civil and social laws will have to be in conformity with natural laws or the people will not accept them and they will have the enlightenment necessary to reject those laws. Science will once again become metaphysics. They will discover four laws that will help them jump to universal law and transcend the time-space continuum which is the limitation of the age and once again we will begin to take our power and to work with rules and laws that are cosmic laws.

Part 10
We will once again see the way to continue a new dream. We will be given the road map back to the stars and we will see the star people come out of the illusion of their two-legged form and into their actual great sleeper-dreamer form. And so you will meet some really great people. This is the time of the second coming of Christ as spoken of in the Book of Revelation and it will be the awakening of a new circle, a new design of energy movement for humanity. ‘Christ’ means ‘a circle’. So the second coming of the sacred circle is all enlightened humans dancing as one consciousness.



Part 11
A powerful time and its really hard for me to talk about it. I am a great dreamer but I don’t know if I dream that large. We will see a real shift in planetary consciousness. Many of the enemies of the humans will begin to die away.

Part 12
We will totally gain the light of the great light wheel. There will be one humanity, one planet composed of all the different ways of dancing in complete harmony in the great gathering together circle. All the seeds will be planted.

Part 13
The Earth will have its true reality formed. It will join the sisterhood of planets, the Daughters of Copperwoman and it will create within itself all forms of all things in harmony with the everything.

Part 14
We will see a whole new way of perfection. There will be plants on this grandmother Earth that will give life and sustenance as never before seen. Starvation on the earth, all those things will be gone.

Part 15
There will be total balance and harmony. All humans will be balanced fives, or enlightened fives, a six. And they will still be in their physical bodies.

Part 16
The new race of humans will begin to design their new reality of life on this planet as they intended it to be when they first came here from the stars.

Part 17
We will begin to establish this planet and use the collective consciousness to hold the power of this space in harmony with the Great Circle of Twelve and all the planets. There is a whole lot I don’t even know. There is more that I am not supposed to talk about yet.

Part 18
The dream will be actualised and this planet will hold its space in the Great Council of Planets and become a part of the universal enlightened sisterhood and brotherhood of humanity and keepers of the light circles. It's happened on many planets and it's expected to happen on a lot of other planets.

Part 19
There will be a moment when the population will be 'the' population, and something great will happen.

Part 20
This planet will have its design of energy movement guided by all of humanity living here.

Part 21
The Great Spirit will have left its seed and the egg of everything here on this planet and it will create itself 20 times over at the speed of light and this prophecy ends as I have been given it by the Grandmothers that I share with you now.


Some recent announcements about the great Piramid:

Update: The Secret Door Inside The Queen’s Chamber to be Finally Opened!

Read more: http://scienceray.com/earth-sciences/update-the-secret-door-inside-the-queens-chamber-to-be-finally-opened/#ixzz1NencUPkK

Mysterious markings discovered at Great Pyramid of Giza

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/05/28/pyramid.markings/index.html?hpt=C2

Last edited by MikeB on 28-May-2011 at 02:25 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 28-May-2011 at 02:24 PM.

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Lou 
Re: Video evidence presented in support of a fraudsters "theory"
Posted on 28-May-2011 14:30:48
#299 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@Nimrod

Quote:

Nimrod wrote:
@Lou

I did not fail to respond to this "evidence" , I merely treated it with the contempt that it deserved.

My post and the prior from thread 1 was directed @ T-J. Perhaps you two are one and the same?

Quote:
The statues at Tiahuanaco are statues depicting a person with a fairly "flat" face as wide as it is tall. The Easter Island sculptures are shorter bodied with a very long face having no "hat", A prominent brow ridge, flared nostrils, and protruding lips.
From 1:40 in your "evidence" presented by Giorgio Tsoukalos. First a few details about Giorgio Tsoukalos.

Why are you so focussed on statues/art vs. the actual construction details which is what actually makes it literally impossible according to the 'scienctifically accepted "facts"' that civilization, which supposedly only got started ~4000BC could build such complicated structures prior to 4000BC ... especially considering that the pyramids in Egypt have been dated ~10,000BC. It seems to me that the evidence to both 'advanced civilization' and advanced knowledge is undeniable and that the notion that only cavemen were around prior to 4k BC needs to die a cold death and that somehow advanced civilizations left this planet for some reason leaving behind only structures and no actual tools other than the occassional hand tools or ignots in coal and such.

The theory of 'ancient astronauts' is more plausible than cavemen cutting rocks with string and moving 130 ton stones up hill by rolling them on perfectly cylinderical small logs and lining everything up without dropping and cracking them. Sometimes, 'science' is STUPID.

Quote:
Quote:
Tsoukalos has been the director of Erich von Däniken's Center for Ancient Astronaut Research for over 12 years

Quote:
Some also question von Däniken's credibility, as he has also knowingly put forward fraudulent evidence to advance his hypotheses, such as photographs of pottery "depicting UFOs", supposedly from an archaeological dig dating back to the biblical era.

So we have a man employed by a proven fraudster presenting a supporting statement for the fraud, prior to introducing a statement from the fraudster. (Items #8 and #10 on my list)
From 2:30 in your "evidence" Has nobody ever heard of the term "earthquake"?
The only comments in this entire video that made any rational sense were those made by Todd Disotell

Directors are artistic. This one perhaps is simply interested in the ancient world and is willing to direct anything with that subject matter. So since Speilberg directed ET, does that suddenly make him anything other than a good director?
The problem with you is you look for reasons to discredit rather than evaluate the evidence presented.

The facts are Tiahuanaco exists REGARDLESS OF WHO THE HISTORY CHANNEL EMPLOYED TO DIRECT THE VIDEO!
Now you have to deal with it. You can't discredit Tiahuanaco so you discredit 'the video'. This is typical of the 'establisment' protecting its investment.

Quote:
Over here in Europe we have structures built by the Romans that were assembled from materials brought in from the furthest reaches of the Empire, simply to demonstrate how great and far reaching that empire was. The fact that the Roman Empire later disappeared from these shores does not mean that Caesar got in to his flying saucer and went home to Zeta Reticuli. The Roman Empire collapsed as a result of a combination of internal failures, and external "uncivilised" pressures. During the subsequent "Dark ages" many great cathedrals and castles were built throughout Europe. Accountants of the day recorded the names and payscales of the stonemasons who did the work, and while some of their methodology was not recorded, you can be certain that the presence of a flying saucer lifting huge blocks of masonry would not have gone unnoticed.

The difference is the Roman empire was completely documented by human history. Also, let's be serious - their structures pale in comparison to the ancient ones.

Quote:
Quote:
It's estimated at 17,000 years old... and has stones that were diamond-cut as well as staples that were molded in place using molten metal

I will leave it for people better acquainted with geological dating techniques to poke holes in the 17,000 year fallacy, but the assertion by Giorgio Tsoukalos that the stones were diamond cut is not proof that they were diamond cut.(Item #9 on my list)

You were told the material that made up the stone. Perhaps you can suggest a better theory? This is not the only video on Tiahuanaco. Feel free to look at other sources. We have examples of what diamond-cut stones look like today and by examining those they look similar. Today farmers use GPS to farm land in straight lines. Did you notice in the arial view how perfectly straight that city was? Even if it was built in 0 BC, it would not be possible to make a city so perfect.

What's happening is your system-of-beliefs is being brought into question. If you can accept that there was an ancient intelligence that was lost 'somehow', more questions will need to be asked and them perhaps you will finally entertain more possibilities such as: humans are not the pinacle of creation.

Up to my mid-teens, I was quite the catholic. I then opened my mind and looked deeper than what I was being taught. It was in my teens that I abandoned religion because I realized what it was - brainwashing. It's no different than what happens in every school. We are taught by the books and that's all we know and all we are taught to accept.

Science/technologies' greatest discoveries we discovered by accident. If everything happened by the book, nothing new would be found. If you believe in a book then you are bound to it. Yes, right now I am believing Sitchin's tales...but that is only because it puts some cohesion into what I have been contemplating all along since my late teens. Sitchin's books makes for one cohesive story from the creation of this solar system to the beginnings of know human history. Until 'science' proves him wrong, he is only wrong because someone else has a different opinion. For instance, you lok at a picture of a tomato that has degrades over the years, someone might think it's an apple, someone else a cherry. What ever! Individual pictograms don't change the big picture. Until someone shows me a better big picture, it's a Picasso to me.

Last edited by Lou on 28-May-2011 at 02:34 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 28-May-2011 at 02:32 PM.

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Nimrod 
Re: Video evidence presented in support of a fraudsters "theory"
Posted on 28-May-2011 15:55:15
#300 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@Lou

Quote:
Up to my mid-teens, I was quite the catholic.
So now at last, I understand. You have traded in your belief in the divine infallibility of the Pope for a belief in the divine infallibility of Zecharia Sitchin. I also suffered from,and eventually rejected, an intense religious indoctrination. The only real difference is that I transferred my support to human ingenuity. Humans do not need assistance from external sources, divine or astronaut, to aspire to improve themselves in either a scientific or moral sense. Nor do humans divert the blame when they make a total pigs ear of it all.

Quote:
My post and the prior from thread 1 was directed @ T-J. Perhaps you two are one and the same?

This thread is not a private conversation between you and T-J. MikeB, BrianK, and others have also been making contributions, and answering points without having to wait for an invitation. If however you believe that anybody is posting on this forum using multiple usernames, you have not only the right, but the duty to enter a report to the moderators immediately.
Quote from T&C
Quote:
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Quote:
The facts are Tiahuanaco exists
Absolutely true. An impressive monument to human endeavour and ingenuity. there is however no shred of evidence diminishing human achievement and passing it to external sources.
Quote:
humans are not the pinacle of creation.
But neither are they so feeble as to need help every step of the way. Why are you so disparaging of your own kind? I know that Shakespeares Hamlet is a gloomy play but at least one line in it should inspire you.
Quote:
Hamlet: What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals.

Quote:
So since Speilberg directed ET, does that suddenly make him anything other than a good director?
No, but neither does it mean that the events portrayed in the film are anything other than fiction.
Quote:
the 'scienctifically accepted "facts"' that civilization, which supposedly only got started ~4000BC
nearer to ~6500BC according to current theories.
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especially considering that the pyramids in Egypt have been dated ~10,000BC.
Wrong again. The earliest Egyptian pyramid was Djoser, built by Imhotep circa 2650BC.
Quote:
no actual tools other than the occassional hand tools or ignots in coal and such.
Like a 1920's champion spark plug, or a 19th century geologists hammer found under a waterfall
Quote:
Science/technologies' greatest discoveries we discovered by accident.
Like Watson and Crick "accidentally" discovered the structure of DNA in 1953, after years of research inspired by Gregor Mendel in 1866.

Last edited by Nimrod on 28-May-2011 at 07:28 PM.
Last edited by Nimrod on 28-May-2011 at 07:17 PM.
Last edited by Nimrod on 28-May-2011 at 07:16 PM.

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

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