Hello,

I was a former C-64 + Amiga user ages ago, and just wanted to try to put a little perspective on how someone outside of this forum would look at CUSA and the Amiga market in general.

I should also state I've been somewhat aware of the companies involved with the Amiga name, as I've checked these forums once in a while. I admit, however, it felt more like how passerbys glance at a car crash on the side of the road, rather than expecting anything good.

Amiga Inc. -- complete disaster. If they had an actual business plan, I have no idea what it was. I expect it was a tax scam or money laundering type of operation, if anything.

Hyperion -- seemingly good intentions and if they produce the new Amiga machine, I wish them the best. But the machine is extremely overpriced and will appeal to a very small subset of former Amiga users. I don't see how OS4 can ever achieve enough market saturation to lure enough new developers to provide software. Not only is there very little commercial benefit, there are very few actual users of the OS.

MorphOS -- pretty much same boat as OS4, but with a wider variety of machines it runs on. Total userbase absolutely tiny, however. Complete idiocy that the tiny amiga OS market is split into MorphOS/OS4/AROS instead of all resources working on one single Amiga OS.

CUSA -- Unfortunately they started off somewhat shady, aggressive (in a negative way) and alienated a lot of Amiga people. However, that said, they are the only company involved that has an actual business plan that I can see generating enough revenue to run a company + bring new users to the platform.

New C-64 -- nice enough machine, but way overpriced. Nettops, which is pretty much what the inside of this machine is, go for about $200-$300. I have a netbook with similar specs that cost me $180. But even being overpriced, I expect it will sell magnitudes more than any of the new 'Amigas' combined, including Sam, Amiga one, etc.

New Amigas -- not really Amigas exactly, but then again, are MorphOS, AmigaOnes, Sam, or planned OS4 machines really Amigas either? If you stick AROS on a PC, is it an Amiga? The definition of what an Amiga even is will differ by user... to me, it has to run original software + games natively and have an OS very similar to the original, at least in design. But to a lot of people (outside of these forums), I expect if it simply runs old games and the OS via emulation, that'd be good enough. They probably won't even know the difference between a software or hardware solution.

The problem I see CUSA running into however is that the Amiga case isn't exactly nostalgic. Yeah, the A1200 (to me) has a nice case, but if I had to do actual typing, I'd prefer a dedicated keyboard. And the pizza-style cases are downright ugly I think, and not very practical. They could come out with cool new designs, such as the fantasy case, etc. which I would think would make the most sense.. but it'll only work if the price is reasonable and the machine's quality is very high (think Apple). A generic PC (w/Amiga name) stuck in a pizza-style box selling for 2x the price of a Dell, won't lead to much success.

As for their Commodore OS, I'll withhold judgment until we see what it actually is. To me, it sounds just like another Linux variation with Amiga themes, but if they develop an actual OS, using a Linux core, with the ability to run Amiga software semi-natively (ie Wine), then it may be interesting. I expect it won't be this, but if attempting to gain a wide user-base, a linux core makes more sense to me than any of the other Amiga OS variations -- if you don't have a modern browser + common software tools for the PC you are selling, it won't ever sell.

What I do find most interesting are the Natami/MiniMig/FPGA machines coming out. If I was CUSA, I'd focus part of the business on one of those, make an ASIC, and put out an 'Amiga-on-a-chip'... either as a separate machine or a cheapo games device (or both). It also opens up possibilties for very inexpensive tablets, small laptops, handheld game systems (ie pandora-like), etc. It's the closest any company could come to producing an actual new Amiga, in my opinion.

@Nameless

Nice neutral post, I have to agree with what you say for the most part.

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@Nameless

I could offer detail into each paragraph, but basically I agree.

The primary failure of everything amiga over the years has been communications. For anyone to start to view things as opportunities as opposed to threats to their own corner of the world, com has to be the 1st step.

To complicate things on that front is that not every group has an officially recognized authority to speak for them and their projects.

#6

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@Nameless

Quote:

it has to run original software + games natively

What are original software? For ROM 1.0, 1.3, 2.0, 3.x?
If you say all of them then I don't see why you wouldn't include 4.x which is still and again AmigaOS.

All people that think the same have no reason to choose this idea, they just need to find one reason so they try to find one. Nothing more.

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@elwood

I excluded OS4 software from my list simply because there isn't a whole lot of it, and admittedly, I know very little as to what is available.

I don't want to dismiss OS4 developers' work, but again, stated this was an opinion of someone who isn't so active in the Amiga scene anymore. For myself, an Amiga would be defined as a machine that runs Amiga software natively, the same as when I actually used an Amiga. Others will have different opinions... nobody is right or wrong... it's simply their opinion.

The majority of users outside of this forum will not even be aware that AmigaOS 4 even exists. If creating a new Amiga machine for a wider audience, it is probably moot whether it contains OS4 compatibility or not. They have better software tools on their Win PC or Mac already.

And yeah, ideally CUSA and Hyperion could have worked something out. Perhaps a port of OS4 to their machines would have been nice. At the very least, I think they should have licensed the AmigaOS name, from a marketing perspective.

I'm not sure if it'd make any difference towards the end result, however, being whether CUSA fails or succeeds. If CUSA makes an OS using a linux core that surpasses OS4 in capability, software library, and ability to run old Amiga software, OS4 may become somewhat meaningless. I should add I think this will be very unlikely to occur, based on past history of companies using the 'Amiga' brand.

Last edited by Nameless on 27-Jun-2011 at 07:49 PM.

@Nameless

All the great ideas, CUSA just won`t pick up.
Time will tell their future record, but all the broken promises don`t give much
hope in their bright future promises.

Hyperion and Acube could do a lot better with e.g. AOS4 for all PPC machines (especially Macs that can also run MacOS X as CommodoOS container) which wouldn`t be that hard thing to do. Hope Classic revenue will sadly give them more resources. With FF i OO Lite ports it could actualy be usable OS, and in unity with AROS PPC and MOS teams could advance to AmigaOS 5. Off course, that is just a wish.

Will CUSA parttake in the process? Seems not, as they are neither hardware manufacturer or software developer.

Victim of Amiga AIO broken promise are Amiga users - A1200 dream case could be worth $250 CUSA tax just because everyone would love to fit their "motherboards" to Amiga case and get full Amiga with case, name and OS.

With more AresOne and iMica (AROS+glUAE, Linux + Amiga Forever and AmiKit) as well as AROS developers, even the x86 Amiga thing could run paralelly, until AmigaOS gets x86 version, PPC emualor like Rosetta Stone (or Rosetta Stone licenec) or at least PPC add on PCI card for every PC with Amiga OS4.x or 5.x

There are plenty of oportunities, even this small fragmented userbase isn`t that bad in time only few percentages of people use OS`s other then Windows or CPUs other then x86.

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@Nameless

@Nameless

Your opinions amount to no special discovery but are very much a sane person observations. i wasnt very carefull reading but think would actually agree on everything you wrote.

Last edited by wawa on 27-Jun-2011 at 09:23 PM.

@Nameless

wholehartedly agree. i can tell you put a lot of thought in this.

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@Nameless
The reason I use Amiga OS is because there are no other currently developed OSes that comes close to how responsive the system is.
When it comes to opening programs or using OS components it is much faster than even a high end pc or mac.
OS4.x kept this while adding more features.

I can understand your point of view if you mainly only remember the games and not the OS.

But I agree about the hardware being highly overpriced.

Last edited by Tomas on 27-Jun-2011 at 11:15 PM.

@Nameless

Great post!

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@Nameless

Quote:

Nameless wrote: Hyperion -- seemingly good intentions and if they produce the new Amiga machine, I wish them the best. But the machine is extremely overpriced and will appeal to a very small subset of former Amiga users. I don't see how OS4 can ever achieve enough market saturation to lure enough new developers to provide software. Not only is there very little commercial benefit, there are very few actual users of the OS.

Hyperion has had control over AmigaOS only starting Sept.2009. It would be foolish
at this stage to try and achieve large market share.

As for the people around here, we welcome all who may be interested in community
projects, helping where possible, discussing various topics, and generally doing
computing on a common platform. It's fun, but may not be for everybody. We, that is
we the community at this time, can only offer support and cheers for our favorite
platform(s) and must let those higher up worry about the commercial aspects. This
is not a competition. Though many have tried to make it seem so.

Quote:

CUSA -- However, that said, they are the only company involved that has an actual business plan that I can see generating enough revenue to run a company + bring new users to the platform.

See what I mean? - -

And what exactly is their business plan?

Bring users to what platform?

I mostly agree with your musings, but ...................

Quote:

Hyperion -- seemingly good intentions CUSA -- the only company involved that has an actual business plan.....

Thus, the but.

@elwood

Quote:

elwood wrote: @Nameless Quote: it has to run original software + games natively What are original software? For ROM 1.0, 1.3, 2.0, 3.x? If you say all of them then I don't see why you wouldn't include 4.x which is still and again AmigaOS. All people that think the same have no reason to choose this idea, they just need to find one reason so they try to find one. Nothing more.

OS4 is a continuation of what developers thought might have happened should the Amiga have continued under Commodore or what they thought would be cool. OS4 is no more or no less Amiga OS as MorphOS or AROS. In fact MOS was almost OS4 way back and AROS is sticking as close to OS3 as possible. So you can't really call OS4 "original" just because of a licence to use the name because in terms of being anything like what Amiga OS was or probably would have become, its arguably the furthest removed in respects to classic compatibility.

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@Mechanic

First I want to make it clear I didn't mean to give the impression as to which companies are best, which amiga-ish platforms are best, etc. One of the points I wanted to make, by bringing a somewhat outside perspective is, all the in-fighting and arguing over morphos/OS4/Aros/CUSA comes across as rather insane to anyone outside looking in.

As for Hyperion, I agree that they have had limited time to build up a market base. Just stating my opinion that a 2-3K computer with outdated specs probably isn't the way to do it... And when I say large market share, I really just mean large enough to support software development, not like microsoft, apple, linux market shares.

It is fine for a hobbyist market though, but they are really really limiting potential buyers, as well as future users of OS4.

As for commercial aspects, I personally believe it is important because even if OS4, MorphOS, etc. are the greatest things out there, you really need software for it, to give it any real point to the majority of users. And the way to obtain software is to have a large enough user base to make it worthwhile to developers, both the garage programmer type and commercial interests.

I don't see how OS4 will ever reach that level on its current course. Again, if you like OS4, feel that money isn't an issue for you, that is perfectly valid. Expensive toys are fine (if you can afford them). But I see no path to getting commercial developers interested in working with OS4, unless they license out and go with different platforms (and even then, it'd be very iffy).

As for CUSA's business plan, I can only guess based on what I have read, but it appears that the C-64 model will be their initial moneymaker, selling it in some big retail shops, etc. Even though I feel it is overpriced, I think it will sell to the nostalgia crowd. But it's not the sort of product you can keep a business running on longterm as their sole product. After they get enough capital from that, it appears they are going for their 'Amiga' line, which in my opinion is where things may get tricky for them. Their plan may of course fail, but at least they have one. And I can see them raising some decent money to start with. What they do with that money afterwards will be what matters. And as for 'bringing users to the platform', we will have to wait and see what their OS even really is, if they plan to develop it into a real OS, not just a linux variation. The one difference however, to me, is that CUSA could do something interesting, be it a real Amiga-like OS with a linux core, ASIC game systems, tablets, etc. as they should have the money to do so. Not that they will... but the potential is at least there.

Last edited by Nameless on 28-Jun-2011 at 12:30 AM.

Quote:

Hyperion has had control over AmigaOS only starting Sept.2009. It would be foolish at this stage to try and achieve large market share.

They might have had new rights to the name and marketing by then but they had access to the same resources software wise for years.

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@Nameless

Meh tell us something we all didn't know already.

MorphOS users will stick with using MorphOS cause they like it.

AmigaOS users like wise and they are willing to support the platform despite the buy in price.

Aros users will continue with Aros cause there is no buy in price.

CUSA if you like a standard PC in a retro case with an Amiga badge from CUSA running a skinned distribution of Linux and UAE at a hefty price good luck to you.

Like I said tell us something we don't already know.

Last edited by Fairdinkem on 28-Jun-2011 at 12:48 AM.

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@Fairdinkem

Fair points, but based on the arguing I see in this forum over platforms, I'm not sure it's something everyone here already knows. Or if they do, they just choose to ignore it, in order to argue for the sake of arguing.

And as I stated, I meant my post more as just a general opinion of someone outside looking in. 'Can't see the forest for the sake of the trees'... that sort of thing.

For those not active in the community, all of the available platforms: OS4, MorphOS, AROS have flaws probably keeping most former Amiga users from ever using any of them, be it price or the lack of software. CUSA also has many flaws too in the way they handled themselves and pricing. Arguing over and over which is best is just silly, as the userbases for each are so small they are close to meaningless from a commercial or developer standpoint (at least currently).

And I'm not sure if some in this forum realize that.

Last edited by Nameless on 28-Jun-2011 at 03:37 AM.

@Nameless

There has already been a call for unity in a thread called time to join forces truth is it won't happen. For any platform to prosper people need to buy in despite the cost instead of moaning about price or whether or not it is a real amiga our if it is PPC or x86. If you love the platform then buy into it and that in turn promotes development. We ned more Trevor Dickinsons in the community to support the talented developers we do have.

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@Fairdinkem

Thing is, I agree about the 'buy in' philosophy, but the price is so far out of line with with what the general population (or even a subset of them) would be willing to swallow, really.

And to really prosper, you would need to attract former Amiga users who no longer read Amiga forums, such as this one. And none (or very few) of them will pay 3K for outdated hardware and an OS that doesn't have a modern software library.

This is just my opinion (so hopefully others don't go crazy for me saying it), but the only way for OS4 to succeed is to move to other platforms and gain a wider audience. I'm hoping after Hyperion releases their X1000, they simply port it to other systems.

Logically, the simple solution would have been for CUSA and Hyperion to work together, port OS4 to their PCs, get royalty payments and go with that. But for whatever reason, the whole 'work together' thing doesn't seem to ever happen in Amiga-land.

@Nameless

Quote:

As for Hyperion, I agree that they have had limited time to build up a market base. Just stating my opinion that a 2-3K computer with outdated specs probably isn't the way to do it... And when I say large market share, I really just mean large enough to support software development, not like microsoft, apple, linux market shares.

We see ppl all the time say that the x1000 has outdated specs, so I have to ask you, oudated for what? You have to remember that it was designed to run OS4, not windows. Now look a MorphOS, they ported to the ppc Mac for speed, you could also say those old Macs are outdated as well.

Just saying, what appears to be outdated specs for the Windows World, isn't for the Amiga World, OS4 will just fly on it, very little bloat.

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