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   /  Amiga OS4 Software
      /  What will it take? Is money the answer?
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Poll : Can the rate Amiga software development be improved? How?
Just raising more money is the answer.
Publicizing the Bounty system more is the answer.
Donating more free computers to developers is the answer.
No, nothing is going to help. Give up now!
There is nothing wrong with the amount of development.
Better development tools are needed first.
 
PosterThread
cheesegrate 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 14:11:59
#21 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Apr-2007
Posts: 259
From: Australia

@amigadave

Quote:
IIRC, Ben Hermanns is no longer a partner of A-Eon,




With a single vision of trevor the company can move forward, the question is who is paying for the x1000 dev work, hyperion or amigakit?

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number6 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 14:19:17
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@gerograph

I suggest you write to Jamie Krüger and get his feelings about what it would take for him to finish AVD.

#6

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vox 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 14:28:19
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3731
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@amigadave

All above make sense, but what seems to be most missing are documentation and tutorials. Also yes, more bounties, systems and real deep info for pro coders about both OS and target HW.

After that, even easier programming languages that have limited but some results and are visually oriented would be most interesting to take existing users with little knowledge (or future users) to develop as mid solution.

But best would be as suggested as "A-EON software", setting small but focused software only company with Hyperion help to focus on developing top priority apps (and maybe port a game from time to time :)

Even such great products like X1000 are dead without apps to use it.

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vox 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 14:34:10
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3731
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@cheesegrate

Quote:
With a single vision of trevor the company can move forward, the question is who is paying for the x1000 dev work, hyperion or amigakit? _________________


Please be more constructive and try to add positively to discussion. Surely you can say a lot more things then such questions, and if you must, direct them to AmiKit and A-EON representatives at PM. Hyperion took role of software developer and will be getting money from X1000 OS4 licences, so they should be paying first if that is theoretical answer to your question.

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Fab 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 14:36:09
#25 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2004
Posts: 1178
From: Unknown

@Zylesea

Despite many flaws due to its age and design, AmigaOS API is still superior in many ways to what we can see in other OSes (to name a few: Win32 API, GTK absolute nonsense and Unix posix braindeadness in general).

As for programming in C++, there's really no particular issue doing so with MUI. Just a few precautions with the set/get defines, and that's it, basically. Of course, C++ requires a bit more casting here and there, but that's a detail.

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Tomppeli 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 14:42:01
#26 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jun-2004
Posts: 1652
From: Home land of Santa, sauna, sisu and salmiakki

@amigadave

Money from monthly salary.

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Belxjander 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 15:06:42
#27 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2005
Posts: 557
From: Chiba prefecture Japan


@ amigadave

as a returning developer the main lack of support I see is complete examples using only what is
provided with the OS itself (walk through examples using the AOS4NDK)

@ opi

your thoughts with regards Virtual Machines are not exactly accurate but the existing Virtual Machines
on AmigaOS systems are all dedicated for non-OS environments...( WHDLoad is one example )

@ dangerman

I'm returning to AmigaOS development having learned to program on Amiga OS 2.0 and 3.1 using
the RKRM 3rd Edition, and there is definitely a lack of equal material for the 4th OS release currently.

also the lack of any clear distinction between the different flavours of OS when programming is also
an inherited drawback let alone the variations in developer tools and the reliance on automation...
( AOS3 + PowerUp and WarpUp variations / AOS4 NG / MOS PowerUP+WarpUP / AROS .... )

I'll be writing a clear example of how to produce an Amiga OS shared library as one of the first things
I do on obtaining an AmigaOS4.x machine so that there is some flow from the RKRM 3rd edition and
earlier material into the current latest version of the OS...

And from my own experience the whole attitude of the existing developers with regards the materials
that are available for cross-compiling to the platform from outside...

just *ugh* is seriously understating the problem,

just my opinion but the current toolkits as available ( AmiDevCpp with GCC ) are not supported by
the available examples ( os4depot.net / ptplay.library using VBCC!?!? wheres a GCC example!? )

the SDK includes GCC... this is a good thing... that very same GCC has only Linux documentation!?!?
or not definite clear "this is amiga only" markers for any of the options...

new developers are not going to see anything that makes the Amiga "special" other than the attrocious learning curve... ( I'm having trouble with that one and I'm already familiar with the OS! )

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itix 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 15:15:01
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@Fab

Quote:


As for programming in C++, there's really no particular issue doing so with MUI. Just a few precautions with the set/get defines, and that's it, basically. Of course, C++ requires a bit more casting here and there, but that's a detail.


Yeah. But it is not very clean when you have OO inside OO. There is one OO too much.

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AmiDog 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 16:07:29
#29 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2004
Posts: 917
From: Kumla, Sweden

What *I* would like to have is an official, free and supported cross-SDK supporting Cygwin and i686 Linux, and which includes some kind of virtual machine (which should include a minimal special edition of the operating system). THAT would make life a lot easier for all developers.

Currently none of the three (or four, if you count Classic OS3.x) camps have bothered to do it AFAIK...

And lets face it, it's not only annoying and time consuming to have to use a specific piece of hardware for each Amiga-ish operating system in order to have an up-to-date and supported SDK to work with, it's also expensive.

If it weren't for people like Zerohero, I would have lost all interest in Amiga coding a long time ago. Really, it should be the responsibility of the people who develop the OS to make sure developers have a way of building and testing their applications, they shouldn't just look the other way and hope some third party does their work for them.

Time to learn from Android and others?

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Karlos 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 16:08:00
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4394
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@itix

What about when your OO within OO is compiled for OOO execution processors?

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number6 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 16:40:09
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@amigadave

Quote:
IIRC, Ben Hermanns is no longer a partner of A-Eon, since they reformed in the UK and closed the Belgium based company. AmigaKit is now a partner of A-Eon.


Quote:
Wellington, 25th January 2012


Quote:
A-EON Technology appointed AmigaKit as its primary distributor for all its AmigaONE products.


If what you say is true, why would A-EON announce this instead of announcing the new/current members of their partnership?

Also, it would preferable if you supply a link or information concerning your source to what you have posted, as opposed to an "IIRC".

#6

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eliyahu 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 16:44:23
#32 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1957
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@number6

Quote:
If what you say is true, why would A-EON announce this instead of announcing the new/current members of their partnership?

Also, it would preferable if you supply a link or information concerning your source to what you have posted, as opposed to an "IIRC".

during his amiwest 2011 presentation, trevor mentioned A-EON was being re-incorporated in britain and that matthew leaman had become a partner. i don't recall if he mentioned ben was remaining as a partner in the newly formed venture or not; i also had the same recollection as dave, that he was not, but i cannot remember if that was in a side-conversation or not.

-- eliyahu

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opi 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 16:44:32
#33 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@Belxjander

Quote:
your thoughts with regards Virtual Machines are not exactly accurate but the existing Virtual Machines
on AmigaOS systems are all dedicated for non-OS environments...( WHDLoad is one example )


That's now what I had in mind. A developer can't run an instance of AmigaOS in a VM. He needs to obtain real hardware for it.

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clusteruk 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 16:46:45
#34 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2008
Posts: 1544
From: Marston Moretaine, England

As a windows/Android/iOS developer, I want to program Amiga for fun but I need developer tools as I am a bit lazy and cannot spare the time without decent tools. However, the real thing I want is a full debugger so I can step through code and look at values of variable etc.

On top of this documentation, fairly obvious really.

On the VM part, we have Aros that runs nicely in a VM and therefore if we had ZUNE on all platforms then that could be the introduction route that costs nothing.

Hence, Aros for Rasberry Pi, it is selling for software education and once Aros is on it, we can try and convince people to use it. Then if they can cross develop with it to OS4 and MorphOS then everyone wins. Remember, $35 for an Aros powered computer with Linux thrown in as well.

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eliyahu 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 16:47:30
#35 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1957
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@opi

as a quick aside, it's nice to see you posting again lately. we've missed you around here.

-- eliyahu

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g_kraszewski 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 16:53:19
#36 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Sep-2010
Posts: 343
From: Unknown

@amigadave

After reading through the thread I have one idea. It was mentioned multiple times, that lack of documentation is one of main obstacles. What about bounties for documentation? It works for me and MorphZone Library. I guess you've seen MorphOS Developer Guide. 90% of this document is my work done for a bounty. I can do much more at this field for a reasonable amount of money. Not only for MorphOS.

This is also one of few examples of succesfull bounties. The main problem with "big" bounties in Amiga world is that goals are way too big. Not compared to money raised, but to what one person can do in reasonable timeframe. To make bounties succesfull you have to:
1. Modularize bounties. Split them into smaller, well defined units.
2. Require reusability. Most of "big" goals have subgoals, which may be implemented as shared libraries, or MUI/ReAction/Reggae classes and then reused in other projects. Require that such components are made reusable for free (or require them to be opensourced with permissive licence) for other programmers, properly documented and tested.

From my personal point of view it looks like this. I have a main job, but it is not enough to feed the family budget. Then I have some additional auxiliary jobs, which keep my money at some reasonable level. I would be more than happy if Amiga programming (or writing programming tutorials, why not) may replace some (or maybe even all) of those additional short-term jobs. But to make it happen, it must provide comparable money flow and certainity of getting (assuming the job is done) this money must be at similar level. That's all.

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number6 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 16:55:22
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@eliyahu

Quote:
during his amiwest 2011 presentation, trevor mentioned A-EON was being re-incorporated in britain and that matthew leaman had become a partner.


From A-Eon Amiwest news releases on their home page:

Quote:
A-EON Technology is pleased to announce it has formed a new strategic alliance with AmigaKit, the official distributor of the AmigaOne X1000. As part of this alliance, AmigaKit will jointly fund new AmigaOne hardware developments and will market all future products.


Does a strategic alliance equal Amigakit becoming a partner, in the same way as Ben Hermans and Anthony Moorley, when the original partnership was formed?

#6


Last edited by number6 on 05-Feb-2012 at 09:14 PM.

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eliyahu 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 17:01:02
#38 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1957
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@number6

Quote:
Does a strategic alliance equal Amigakit becoming a partner, in the same way as Ben Hermans and Anthony Moorley, when the original partnersip was formed?

i would think so. matthew wanted to be a part of systems development, is buying into the business, etc. that's sounds the same to me. and that was the impression i got at amiwest in any case.

of course i could very well be wrong. perhaps matthew or trevor could clarify if folks are interested?

-- eliyahu

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Thematic 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 17:24:53
#39 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2003
Posts: 1616
From: I'm actually flying into a bug!

Not everyone who might be interested ever hears about these things. Marketing was neglected for the last 20 years, no surprise there.

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Amiga_3k 
Re: What will it take? Is money the answer?
Posted on 5-Feb-2012 21:45:19
#40 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 17-Jun-2006
Posts: 833
From: Ohrid, Macedonia

@amigadave

Quote:

amigadave wrote:

IIRC, Ben Hermanns is no longer a partner of A-Eon, since they reformed in the UK and closed the Belgium based company. AmigaKit is now a partner of A-Eon.



Must have been under a rock for a while... I totally missed out on this 'news'. Can someone point me where I can find out more about this?

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