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      /  Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
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KimmoK 
Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 10-Feb-2012 14:45:28
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5209
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

QorIQ AMP Series T4240
FreescaleNews

Again, we need to support multicore ASAP.

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rebraist 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 10-Feb-2012 14:54:51
#2 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Jul-2010
Posts: 148
From: Italia - Napoli

good! 24 virtual core?
imagine how fast it can work on a metro network router!!

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billt 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 10-Feb-2012 15:39:17
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3203
From: Maryland, USA

@rebraist

I'm very excited about this thing. It's 64bit and it brings back Altivec. It sounds like the first new chip to be on the level that PA Semi was until 2008. I've been waiting for details since FTF announced the AMP line last summer. And a second one, T4160. Going to make time this weekend to read up on all this!

As I've been able to understand so far, these are dual-thread cores. So a 24 "core" chip is rally 12 true cores running two threads each. Sortof like AMD's Bulldozer, as far as I've read into that. I haven't read up much on Intel's dual-threading way of things, that may be similar too for comparison.

Last edited by billt on 10-Feb-2012 at 03:41 PM.

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KimmoK 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 11-Apr-2012 6:29:27
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5209
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

a bit topic related ...

Recently I set up a spreadsheet to sum up (for myself) how far AmigaHW is behind the mainstream in HW technology. Below is a summary.
(sheet highlite a little the CPU side, calculates difference (in years) the gap per area to the mainstream and does average)

When considering CPU, FSB, expansion buses, GPU,...

Amiga HW technology gap (against wintel):
1986: ahead of all others
1993: 2 years behind? (ok (only) for instrumentation, video and games)
A1 2002: 5,8 years behind (ok CPU performance, otherwise...)
SAM440 2008: 8,6 years behind
SAM460 2010: 6 years behind
A1x1000 2011: 2,6 years behind (CPU is only in netbook level, otherwise ok)

Some notes:
- Amigas have gained back the ability to use some more modern technologies
(Fast RAM, fast HDD, fast GPU)
- A1 netbook will most likely be on the level of G3 PowerBooks of y2000
(no L2 but faster and larger RAM and HDD)
- T4240 would now bring Amiga to the level of modern desktops, but most
likely when the chip is on Amigas, the world has gone further (gap remains)
- SW and drivers are holding back utilization of modern things
- high system price (vs features) is holding back expansion of community

Good for Amigas future:
- netbook CPUs have evolved pretty slowly so far
- entry level desktop technologies are reaching point where evolution
does not bring dramatic improvements, a few year old HW is ok for 99%.
- AmigaHW is available (even though pricey when compared to mainstream).
- Emerging SoC chips make life easier for niche HW developers.
- Doing some cool/clever/innovation via xcore and FPGA are interesting opportunities,
(world is waiting for the next IT boom, new platforms gain momentum)
- Crowd funding is a new interesting phenomenom that can push niches forward.

RISK:
- Only one company is truly pushing PowerPC forward.

Last edited by KimmoK on 11-Apr-2012 at 06:40 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 11-Apr-2012 at 06:37 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 11-Apr-2012 at 06:36 AM.

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OldFart 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 11-Apr-2012 8:13:39
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 2993
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@KimmoK

Maybe topic related too...

We may face ourselves with yet another problem in only a few years.

Will there still be graphics chips around and what level of performance will they return? I mean AMD is integrating CPU and GPU, Intel is about doing something simmilar, NVidia does team up with ARM. What will there be left for other architectures now that CPU and GPU are glued to the same dye more and more? The x86 architecture has been overly dominant for the past two decades and will probably remain doing so for a long, long time. When that market has moved to full integration of CPU and GPU, there's little left for some vendors to produce high perporming graphics chips anymore.
Hm, time to invent/develope our own AGA+++++ chip?

OldFart

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KimmoK 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 11-Apr-2012 9:21:45
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5209
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@OldFart

I hope Freescale is grazy (?) enough to release a e6500 based SoC with OpenGL2.0 level GPU. (it would not be "optimal" if we need to have ARM or x86 onboard (+ the PPC) just to get 3D out)

Before we can approach Freescale with GPU requests/wishes, we should have full OpenGL first ...

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amigadave 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 11-Apr-2012 23:01:57
#7 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jul-2005
Posts: 1731
From: Lake Shastina, Northern Calif.

I don't think it is possible ever again for Amiga (in any form or name) to catch up to modern day standards.

The only way this could happen would be if the whole Amiga community accepted something that is cutting edge and modern, state of the art, as an Amiga and left all of our current legacy support behind, only to be visited through emulation on what ever that new "cutting edge" platform of the future might be.

Getting all of the remaining Amiga community to accept one new platform as "THE" new Amiga, would be impossible, so I say that it will never happen and Amiga will never catch up with the rest of the computing industry, and communities.

That does not mean that we can't enjoy what we have and keep striving to improve it to it's maximum potential. We have a lot to be thankful for and more to look forward to. Just compare the Amiga community to some of the other old computer platforms that have either died in the past, or have a woefully weak community with almost zero new hardware, or software support.

Back on topic: How many PCI lanes does this new chip support? If it can't support a decent graphics card plus a couple more PCI slots, would it really be useful as a PPC chip for OS4.x?

Last edited by amigadave on 11-Apr-2012 at 11:03 PM.

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KimmoK 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 12-Apr-2012 6:39:41
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5209
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@amigadave

"Back on topic: How many PCI lanes does this new chip support? If it can't support a decent graphics card plus a couple more PCI slots, would it really be useful as a PPC chip for OS4.x?"

"32 lanes total at up to 10 GHz."
T4240 has 32 lanes that can be configured to form 16x PCIe v3.0 slot and several others (without use of external PCIe switch).
IIRC, T4160 has 24 lanes, similarly to PA6T, but 2x faster.

Freescale has planned to release new e6500 chip per quarter. So, soon we should see new chip versions.

UPDATE:
Some MIPS/Mhz/core observations:
- 68000 0.1
- 486DX 0.8
- iAtom 1.2 ( I think with HT it should be 2.x )
- 68060 1.33
- P1 1.88
- ARM A8 2.0
- Xenon 2.0
- PA6T 2.2 (wiki says 4.4, but it's not true)
- PPC750 2.3
- P1022 2.4
- ARM A9 2.5
- P4 3.0 ( HT in use )
- P3 3.4
- PS3 PPE 3.2 (I doubt this is right)
- Phenom2 3.5
- ARM A15 3.5
- iCore2 4.6
- T4240 6.0 ( HT in use )
- i7 7.9 ( HT in use )

Then Ghz, SIMD, FP and multicore comes into play and end result becomes different.
But when T4240 has the best SIMD units, very good FPU, half of the mainstream Ghz, three integrated memory controllers, very high memory bandwidth and a lot of cores, it seems very powerfull. Almost like i7 (but with less watts).

And we need to remember that without multicore support in the OS we get only about 1/2 of the speed of a HT capable core.

Update while I'm waiting for the next chip...
some details about e6500 collected:
-e6500 is said to be capable of clock rates of up to 2GHz,
-e6500 core fabricated with 28nm technology
-e6500 core supports a dual-thread capability that enables
each core to act as two virtual cores.
-Complex Fixed Point execution unit as well as the Floating
Point Unit and the AltiVec technology vector engine are
shared between threads
-target: "broad array of next-generation control and data
plane processors scaling from cost-effective, ultra-low-power
single-core products, up to highly advanced SoCs targeting
the most demanding networking, industrial, and military/aerospace
applications."
-Altivec: it is claimed to enable an additional 240 GFLOPS of
programmable processing performance. (seems optimistic)
-AMP processors draw up to 50 percent less power than earlier QorIQ models
-Development support includes Freescale's CodeWarrior development
suite and a third-party ecosystem that includes multiple operating
systems, tools, and application software, said to be available starting
Q1 2012.
-The company plans to introduce additional AMP products during each
quarter following the initial product launch.
-more: http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?code=E6500
-videolibrary: http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?code=QORIQ_AMP_VIDEOS

Information from cellurar market area of PPC:
https://www.power.org/home/2011_InStat_Guest_Editorial_Chris_Kissel.pdf
(notice that MIPS and ARM have become competitors to PPC, as well as x86. Good that PowerArchitecture community NOW realize that. Hope it's not too late.)

Financial results:
"Adjusted operating earnings of $119 million "
Ok, with the current economical climate, IMHO.
But they need to push new products to market to compete with all those others everywhere.

(Simple MIPS etc. info:
PA6T 2.2MIPS/Mhz/core
P1 2.4MIPS/Mhz/core (SPE instead of Altivec, simple Display unit 1280x1024x24b)
P5 3MIPS/Mhz/core (no altivec)
T4 6MIPS/Mhz/core with hyperthreading

For comparisson: i7 does 8MIPS/Mhz/core, Atom does 2.4MIPS/Mhz/core)

Last edited by KimmoK on 08-May-2012 at 08:34 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 08-May-2012 at 08:31 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 08-May-2012 at 08:30 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 24-Apr-2012 at 08:13 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 20-Apr-2012 at 09:38 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 18-Apr-2012 at 02:07 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 12-Apr-2012 at 08:15 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 12-Apr-2012 at 08:01 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 12-Apr-2012 at 07:57 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 12-Apr-2012 at 07:54 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 12-Apr-2012 at 07:53 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 12-Apr-2012 at 07:52 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 12-Apr-2012 at 07:52 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 12-Apr-2012 at 07:50 AM.

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KimmoK 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 8-May-2012 8:34:21
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5209
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

Small update to P5 family (7.May2012):
P5040 (quadcore) and P5021 (dualcore) chips
- PCIe3.0
- 20 serdes lines
- 2xDDR3 @ 1600Mhz (also in dualcore)
- max 2.4Ghz
- 2MB L3/corenet cache (also in dualcore)

Still no news about other T4 T3 T2 or T1 AMP variants.
(but some kind of confirmation about T1&T2 being 1.6Ghz 10W chips,
hopefully at least T1 comes with display port)

Last edited by KimmoK on 08-May-2012 at 08:47 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 08-May-2012 at 08:45 AM.

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olegil 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 8-May-2012 10:18:42
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5888
From: Work

@KimmoK

I can't verify the PCIe 3.0 part there.
Reading the fact sheet it says:
P5020/10: 4x PCIe V2.0
P5040/21: 3x PCIe V2.0 (incl 1 x8)

Then next page says:

SerDes 20 lanes at up to 5 Gbps
Supports SGMII, XAUI, PCIe rev1.1/2.0, SATA

High-speed peripheral interfaces Two PCI Express 2.0/3.0 controllers

So two out of 3 statements hint at PCIe 2.0. PCIe 3.0 would be 8 Gbps (with 128/130 bit encoding rather than the 4/5 bit encoding of PCIe 1.0/1.1/2.0).

Unfortunately that fourth PCIe controller of the P5020/10 would have come in really handy in a certain design I've been mulling over (crossfire mode with dual MXM graphics cards).

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KimmoK 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 8-May-2012 13:36:01
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5209
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@olegil

I think there is some mixups in those .pdf at freescale:
...

UPDATE: noticed that you also found those...

Last edited by KimmoK on 08-May-2012 at 01:37 PM.

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Drewlio77 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 8-May-2012 14:30:00
#12 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Jan-2008
Posts: 781
From: Woodstock, Ontario, Canada

@amigadave

I know many people will disagree with this but the only thing that would make the Amiga become ahead of the curve that it was back in 1985, is custom chips. That is what made the Amiga what it was. A revolutionary pre-emptive mutlitasking OS built around a custom chipset. It was pure genious, ahead of it's time, built from the ground up, not from existing mainstream technology.

Throwing in mainstream components (CPU, GFX cards) to build a new Amiga is not the future. As you stated earlier, it's called catch up. Something I have to do with my PC from time to time (like every 2 years).

Unfortunately for a customized Amiga to be developed would require an investor with a company with a sizeable capitol to invest in a technology that will have to face stiff, well entrenched competition. Risk Management anyone?

Drewlio77

Last edited by Drewlio77 on 08-May-2012 at 02:32 PM.
Last edited by Drewlio77 on 08-May-2012 at 02:32 PM.
Last edited by Drewlio77 on 08-May-2012 at 02:31 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 8-May-2012 15:04:02
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4334
From: Australia

@KimmoK

Note that, Intel Sandybridge comes with 12 IEU stream processors, while Intel Ivybridge comes 16 improved IEU stream processors.

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KimmoK 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 8-May-2012 15:09:25
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5209
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Drewlio77

To have special (better than mainstream) features in HW is a good selling point.
But I doubt it could be done via GPU this time. We would need something else.

(better than mainstream standard audio as "Amiga standard"? etc... )
(every x86 that I have generates terrible noice to audio lines)

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vox 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 8-May-2012 15:13:55
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@Drewlio77

Technology gap is now lessen then in 1999 or 2003.
Once we become able to use RadeonHD and some newer audio cards, printers and Wi-Fi it might be lessen then ever.

440,460 and PA Semi cores are older then when it became avail to us (as well as G3,G4,604,603 ...) and its good to see there is evolution and catch up with PowerPC chips, no matter how much we call them dead.

And as much as numbers look weak to x86 PC`s AmigaOS (MorphOS) and working well on 1Ghz Amiga systems with 1GB RAM feeling more responsive and user controlled then MacOS or Linux on same hardware. And do look good to any Windows computer, just lack features, apps and drivers.

AmigaOS and MorphOS and AROS are reached nearly very usable state. Add Office and some more drivers and few modern features and it is near a mainstream OS more then when you would compete their 1999, 2003, 2005 states with Windows 2000/XP and Linux and MacOS of that time.

It would be good to fuse some of this best techonologies and create SOCC or special chipset that would be look a like. Alongside an AGA 030 emulated in FPGA

Post 2010 development aren`t that bad at all

P.S.
As much as OCS was revolutionary ECS and AGA were late and limiting and AAA never developed. So chipset was also a reason for Commodore end. All Amiga expansions were created to overcome their limitations, including PCI,USB, IDE, AHI, RTG back in OS 3.x days

Last edited by vox on 08-May-2012 at 03:24 PM.
Last edited by vox on 08-May-2012 at 03:23 PM.
Last edited by vox on 08-May-2012 at 03:17 PM.

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Kronos 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 8-May-2012 15:35:34
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2242
From: Unknown

-nop-

Last edited by Kronos on 08-May-2012 at 03:36 PM.

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Kronos 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 8-May-2012 15:35:58
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2242
From: Unknown

@vox

Quote:

vox wrote:
@Drewlio77

Technology gap is now lessen then in 1999 or 2003.


In 1999 we were using mid-90ties CPUs (68060 and/or G2-class PPC) combined with early 90ties GPU (from Cirrus Logic GD5426 in Picasso2 to Permadia2).

In 2012 we are using G4 class CPUs in the topmodels (old Macs,Pegs,A1s and X1000) some G3 class CPU (Pegs,A1s and maybe the SAM460) and even G2-class CPUs (EFIKA and SAM440).
The newest fully supported GFX-cards are in the 9200-series.
All stuff atleast 10 years old ....

Now I'm sure some people will now babble bout RadeonHD,Gallium or even SMP but all those aren't really there today (and by the time they will be there tghey will again be 10 years behind).

Where we did shorten the gap is in useabilty as we can now watch >90% of the net (vs. 50% 10 years ago) and can play allmost every video-file we come across.


ALL HAIL THE FAB !!!!

Last edited by Kronos on 08-May-2012 at 03:37 PM.
Last edited by Kronos on 08-May-2012 at 03:36 PM.

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vox 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 8-May-2012 15:56:04
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@Kronos

Quote:
Where we did shorten the gap is in useabilty as we can now watch >90% of the net (vs. 50% 10 years ago) and can play allmost every video-file we come across.


Wise words mighty Kronos,
But that usability gap was also made possible but that antique hardware

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KimmoK 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 8-May-2012 19:37:00
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5209
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Kronos

On x1000 kind of HW we can close the gap with drivers. Except for the CPU and price.
(and if x1000 was a netbook/notebook even the CPU would be up to date ... but price might look even worse ... now we can at least compare with bigbox Apple and C=Mini with the "low" price :-| (not features))

Last edited by KimmoK on 08-May-2012 at 07:39 PM.

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Kronos 
Re: Next Freescale high performance PPC chip.
Posted on 8-May-2012 19:54:57
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2242
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote:

(and if x1000 was a netbook/notebook even the CPU would be up to date ... ))


And if the Dacia Logan was a horse it would be a clear race-winner

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