@danwood

Your talking about 90's onwards I'm talking about from the 70's when we went from not having home computers to the 80's when suddenly we did have them. The shops were full every Saturday with kids, teenagers & their dads who who gathered there to buy the latest software and share with each other what they had learned that week with each other and in many cases formed into clubs and user groups where a lot of software and hardware ideas sprang from....

It's been vastly different from the 90's onwards and as each decade has gone by the vast majority of computer users have become people with little or no imagination or programming skills and see computers as nothing more than games machines or a device to gibber endlessly about the latest 3D same old game clones and of course "social media"...

I'm not saying all are that way but the vast majority are and that is a shame, as a lot more fun and pleasure can be had from a computer than just switching it on to play the latest game or gibber crap on social media sites...

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@ resle

Wonder !!! a computer is not something just be be wondered at, it's a tool that can educate people in all aspects of things it's not something just to stare at in wonder (do you "wonder" at a light switch that when you put it to on it magically creates light)...

Yes they was some "wonder" in the 80's but the difference is that wonder quickly turned to curiosity and learning for most as they took the time to figure out how they worked and just what could be done and achieved with them...

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@_ThEcRoW

This thread may well be nonsense to you but to some of us it is simply the truth based on over 30 years of experience, observations & knowledge on the subject...

Like I said back in the 80's computer users took far more interest in just how their machines worked and used them in creative ways to push them to see what they could do with both software and hardware and not just as a box for playing games on...

Put it this way if all people did back in the 80's was switch on their computers and just played games, you would not have choice of software you have today (games or applications) if people hadn't actually learned how to program and push the technology to it's limits in ways even the hardware designers hadn't even imagined. Some of those very people were the ones who went on to form some of the worlds biggest software and third party hardware companies for computers and if all they did was play games then where would you be today...

Yes there are young people who still build/ expand their own systems or write programs but sadly they are the minority amongst computer users today, the evidence is clear as this very site forever has posts from members wishing there were more software and hardware people to create new stuff for us...

No one taught me how to program or fix hardware (computer or otherwise) it was all self taught because I wanted to do it and teach and educate myself about how things work and because it is far more interesting than just playing games or gibbering on the internet about what I did in the pub last night...

So it's not the same, not even close, for most computer users these days it's just a mind numbing replacement for the TV set and nothing more than a games system and thing used to gibber keech on to others gibbering keech instead of a machine/ tool that they could use to create their own entertainment and actually learn something from...

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@Franko

That was a minority. The majority of people who used an amiga in his youth was an a500 and games. The same could be said about other computers(c64, atari, spectrum,msx). There was people who wanted to know the internals of it, but the same could be said today. The majority don't give a ****, but there are people who wants to know more, and these people make their way using the net and forums.
Maybe i just needed to worded better instead of nonsense, but i was referring that in the past, the things were much like now, the only difference i miss today is the different platforms that existed way back, that today are relegated to win,linux and mac.

_________________
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Amiga 500 + ACA500plus 8mb + 30gb CF
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I find this thread interesting, as similar thoughts have crossed my mind.

To most people today, young and old, computers aren't something to be curious about, understand or fully even use. They are appliances.

And I think that's the key difference between then and now.

When I was a kid, my first computer was a Timex Sinclair 1000, with a mighty 2K of memory. After expanding it with a clunky 16K adapter, I started typing in programs from magazines and books. To me, it was like magic, where these arcane words could make my computer do all sorts of things. Eventually I moved onto the C-64 and Amiga, and then PCs.

But today's computer, and by extension, tablets (which are even simpler for people)
have so much power that there is no real need to understand them. I mentioned to my 9 year old nephew how I used to have to type in programs, and he looked at me like it was insane. When everything is handed to you (in this case, ease of use), there is no need or desire to figure out how everything works.

The plus side to ease of use is that many people who use computers now, wouldn't have been computer users back then, anyway. Back then it was something considered complex, or weird. So it's not like people are different now, compared to then. It's just human nature, based on what technology is available.

@thread

I admit it surprises me a little how much people disagree on this topic of how technology is impacting kids today. To be clear, I am not saying that today's kids are not as smart or technology should not get simpler as it matures.

My impression is that the role of technology in kid's lives has gone from helping them to harming them. And from teaching them about how things work and inspiring future engineers, to distracting them. From often building futures, to often damaging them.

Teens are naturally obsessed with communication with other teens. Technology has made this too accessible and many kinds have problems regulating it. Especially as technology has become so ubiquitous and pervasive in theirs lives.

Let me give you an example of the impact of technology in a teens life. My daughter will be 18 in a few months. She and I have had real problems over her access to technology and how preoccupied she becomes with it.

I allowed her to have a cell phone when she was about 12 (and she was late to that party) -- at first, to facilitate my communication with her. At first, she wasn't that interested. But by the time she was 14, she was obsessed with the damn thing. I didn't fully understand the degree of the problem at first. But one day, I was reviewing how much time she was spending on her phone and realized she had been averaging 400 or more text messages per day. On one day, she had sent/received over 300 text messages during school hours. Also, I was seeing many text messages in the middle of the night.

I was shocked! I confronted her, and she said "that's normal... every kid I know does the same thing". That most kids are sending that many text messages. Of course, that made no difference to me, but she was ramping up her use and preoccupation as part of a crashing wave.

I had also given her access to a computer to review the classroom website and for reference in doing school papers. I later discovered that she was studying with a computer on one side and a cell phone on the other. Her study time came in between her selecting the next youtube music video and responding to text messages. In other words, very broken and fragmented seconds of study. Also, I left the computer with me signed in and she installed a texting/IM software. I then caught her at 2AM texting some man, and discovered him asking here "what you are wearing?" Her grades plummeted, and I took away access to computers, and cell phones again.


But it didn't stop there. I placed restrictions on her phone usage on the cell phone provider's website to limit hours of times of usage. Somehow, she managed to lift those restrictions (still don't know how), and was right back to texting hundreds of times during school hours.

I then took the phone away completely. Next, some of her friends helped her figure out how to get a prepaid phone on her own. Which I wasn't aware of for weeks.

My daughter is very smart. But her obsession with technology usage, rather than understanding, has damaged her future. And I have been on top of her about this for years... But she hides and fights and claws to get back to having access.

Today, she is finally starting to come out of this. But it has taken me years of battling and restricting and watching her to get this turned around.

As a result of my experiencing with how technology has impacted my teen, I can say that in my educated opinion, technology is doing more harm to teens than good. Maybe my daughter is an anomaly. But, I've talked with plenty of other parents who say they've had the exact same issues. This is not a battle that our parents had to fight. This is a relatively new dynamic between parent and child.

Maybe you are thinking, I should have watched more closely, or restricted access more, or maybe I should have just taken all access to technology away from my daughter. But how could anyone agree with that response and think technology is still having a positive impact on teens?

Bottom line: technology, communication and media are bombarding teens from all directions, and we parent's as "goalies" to stop some of these horrendous influences from getting through are just being overwhelmed by the ubiquity and easy access that we CAN'T monitor. For example, one study I saw indicates that the average age that children first see internet porn now is now age 8. Even if you, the parent restrict your children's access to the internet, all they have to do is head over to "Jonny's" house, where the parent's don't know how to put a parental lock on the internet browsers, and they are free to explore whatever they want. Internet searches are plagued with hits on innocent keywords like "barbie" and even "whether map". Porn sites are even offering special formatter for Nintendo Wii viewers. And my son's 4th grade class (some years back) was abuzz with children talking about "redtube.com".

So, yes... I think the dynamic of technology and teens has changed in 30 years, in an unhealthy way. And children aren't yet old enough and mature enough to regulate how much time they are spending using technology and how obsessed they become for when the next text message will arrive.

Parents use to buy computers to teach, and inspire future engineers. And maybe some still have that purpose. But this is a statistics thing.. And by and large, the number of children harmed by technology is outpacing the number helped by it, as far as I can tell.

Last edited by jingof on 11-Apr-2012 at 07:04 PM.
Last edited by jingof on 11-Apr-2012 at 06:56 PM.

_________________
Vic-20, C-64, C-128
Amiga 1000, 3000
AmigaOne X1000

@_ThEcRoW

Quote:

_ThEcRoW wrote: @Franko That was a minority. The majority of people who used an amiga in his youth was an a500 and games. The same could be said about other computers(c64, atari, spectrum,msx).

You see that's where I disagree totally with you but these are based on my own personal experiences from the Vic20, C64 & Amiga...

Almost everyone I knew in the various user groups I used to frequent and the age range was from 12 to mid 20's all used their C64's and Amigas mainly for coding, creating mods/ music/ demos and making animations/ pictures in the likes of DPaint to name but a few things...

Game were played too but the most fascinating thing to most of us then about games was cracking them or trying to figure out how the author did something in a game that we could use in out programs by reverse engineering the code and learning from it...

Maybe it was just different where I lived and the people I grow up with were just that bit more curious and inquisitive than most but the difference between then and now as far as I can see is vast and most people just can't be bothered using their computers as nothing more than a games machine or for gibbering about their every breath or fart they make on things like twitter and all those other "unsociable media" nonsense sites that seems to rule their lives these days...

It's a very different world from just a short 25 to 30 years ago based on my own experience of it and I cannot say it's for the better and everything I have seen on my two years on the net has only proven this point further to me...

I just find it sad & a shame that with all that power at peoples fingertips it's wasted for the most part on playing games and gibbering to strangers, when a computer can educate and entertain you in many far better ways...

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@jingof

Quote:

jingof wrote: @thread My impression is that the role of technology in kid's lives has gone from helping them to harming them. And from teaching them about how things work and inspiring future engineers, to distracting them. Teens are naturally obsessed with communication with other teens. Technology has made this too accessible and many kinds have problems regulating it. Especially as technology has become so ubiquitous and pervasive in theirs lives. Let me give you an example of the impact of technology in a teens life. My daughter will be 18 in a few months. She and I have had real problems over her access to technology and how preoccupied she becomes with it. I allowed her to have a cell phone when she was about 12 (and she was late to that party)

Couldn't agree with you more on everything you said there...

I didn't allow my daughter to have a mobile phone until she was 16 and could afford to pay for it's upkeep herself. Sure it caused many arguments but now at the age of 25 she actually agrees with me that it was for her own good and as many of the kids she grew up with are now either in dead end jobs or unemployed and sadly lacking in real social skills, she has gone onto a far more better and useful life than most of her old school friends whom sadly are now living some dead end lives and not a hope in hell of breaking out of it...

In 30 short years most of our society has gone from being pioneers, innovators and people with curiosity and an eagerness to learn to a society of folk stuck in dead end "call centre" jobs who can only interact with others for the most part via computers and ruddy mobile phones and learning is too much like hard work for most of them...

Like it or not that's the way it is and the future doesn't look bright for society as a whole...

The most ironic thing is computers (the very thing we all love) are to blame for this...

Last edited by Franko on 11-Apr-2012 at 07:20 PM.

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@Franko

Quote:

The most ironic thing is computers (the very thing we all love) are to blame for this...

Computers are largely responsible. The other big component is the rampant use of drugs going on, with weed containing 15x to 30x the THC levels of our generation. Roughly half of high school students in the US are using drugs regularly now with these ridiculous and unprecedented THC levels, according to a recent news report. And because of the widespread nature of the problem, teens are considering this "normal" and entering the workforce while retaining these habits.

For example, another news report showed US factory workers at an Airplane manufacturing facility, early to mid-20's, getting high during their lunch break, while talking on their technology. Then, returning to the manufacturing floor to finish putting the airplane together, while high.

Again, you can surely think of cases like this from 30 years ago. But it is a question of statistics. The median cases, not the outliers.

Last edited by jingof on 11-Apr-2012 at 07:46 PM.

_________________
Vic-20, C-64, C-128
Amiga 1000, 3000
AmigaOne X1000

@Franko

Quote:

Your talking about 90's onwards I'm talking about from the 70's when we went from not having home computers to the 80's when suddenly we did have them. The shops were full every Saturday with kids, teenagers & their dads who who gathered there to buy the latest software and share with each other what they had learned that week with each other and in many cases formed into clubs and user groups where a lot of software and hardware ideas sprang from....

Well I wasn't around in the 70s and don't remember much of the 80s until around 88/89, but what you describe about shops being full every Saturday was certainly the case in the mid 90s, me and my friends would regularly go to Future Zone or Electronics Boutique, and local stores like Chips etc. on Saturdays to see the new computers, consoles and hardware, admittedly more games orientated than serious software. But we'd do stuff like video titling, home work, animation, music production on the Amiga after school too.

I think the difference being that if you owned a computer in the 70s/early 80s, you were an enthusiast as they didn't hold much value or use for the average consumer. I've seen documentaries about the Home Brew Computer club, heard people like Woz talking about the fact "he just wanted a computer", even though you couldn't do much with it, they bought them because they were fascinated with the machines and wanted to program them to do things.

Today, computers are an essential part of life and in every home. In the 70s only computer geeks had them, today, every one does, it's not really comparable as the average guy in the street would have had no need for a computer 30 years ago.

With the widespread integration of technology in our lives and the speed at which it's developing, the fact everyone of us has a computer in our pockets these days and is connected on-line to each other and the largest resource of information in human history, I'd say there's never been a more exciting time in technology than now. I certainly wouldn't fancy going back 20 years, I'd be bored senseless after using what we have today.

Last edited by danwood on 11-Apr-2012 at 08:23 PM.
Last edited by danwood on 11-Apr-2012 at 08:23 PM.
Last edited by danwood on 11-Apr-2012 at 08:21 PM.

@jingof

While I understand the horrors of parents worrying who their kids are talking to on-line, I don't think kid's distractions or obsessions are anything new.

I can't speak for 30 years ago, but certainly in the 90s I'd regularly be up til 3/4am on my Amiga on school nights, sneaking on to BBS hoping the sound of the modem didn't wake my parents, listening to phone in shows on the radio until the wee-small hours, chatting on the house phone to friends for hours on end.

I had been known to skip boring lessons at school and come home in the middle of the day to play on my Amiga when my parents were at work, so my grades suffered a bit then, but I'd sit at school thinking "I'm never gonna use history, going home and messing around with Deluxe Paint, or making that MOD I've had in my head in Octamed while chatting to the guys on IRC around the world sounds way more productive", in the end it kinda was as the knowledge I self-taught with computers got me my career and gave me more life-skills than school ever did.

It's the same today with the kids who learn iPhone development (mobile has brought back bedroom programmers, something we thought was dead 20 years ago), build their gaming rigs, learn to be content producers with outlets like Youtube and blogging platforms, there's so many ways now to explore your creativeness.

The way we communicate and get distracted from studies may have changed, but it's nothing the previous generation didn't do in a slightly different form, main difference is, it might actually be more useful in their lives in the future than reading Smash Hits and chatting on the phone was 30 years ago.

Last edited by danwood on 11-Apr-2012 at 08:32 PM.
Last edited by danwood on 11-Apr-2012 at 08:31 PM.
Last edited by danwood on 11-Apr-2012 at 08:31 PM.
Last edited by danwood on 11-Apr-2012 at 08:31 PM.

@jingof

Yeah 'cos nobody got high in the swinging 60s? Most of the early tech companies in the valley were founded by pot smoking hippies, look at Steve Jobs, getting high harm his career much. It's not a new thing.

Last edited by danwood on 11-Apr-2012 at 08:36 PM.

@danwood

Quote:

Yeah 'cos nobody got high in the swinging 60s? Most of the early tech companies in the valley were founded by pot smoking hippies, look at Steve Jobs, getting high harm his career much. It's not a new thing.

It's not my intention to hijack this thread and make it about something totally different, so I won't respond here. Suffice it to say, I think it is a more complex issue than you portray.

_________________
Vic-20, C-64, C-128
Amiga 1000, 3000
AmigaOne X1000

@Franko

Quote:

Franko wrote: The most ironic thing is computers (the very thing we all love) are to blame for this...

Children have one duty to themselves in society. Find the limits.

Adults, especially parents, have the duty toward children to show them the limits.

_________________________________________________________________________________

If you have been around home computers for more than 25-30 years you are lucky
in the sense that the first language you probably used, or were familiar with
was BASIC. Back then it was not sneered at as something for dummies or those
of lesser minds. Today it is proclaimed loud and clear that if you want to program
computers you must learn C or C++ and that nothing of use can be done with any
simple to use and understand language.

Remember Flowcharts?
When is the last time you seen a flowchart accompany any program? For me it was
back in the 70's when understanding this new gizmo was important. Then the experts
came along and poo-pooed most everything to do with understanding and simply decided
their way was the only way, and you are naught but a consumer.

If we could get back to a point where young minds, with all the distractions they
face, had even a chance of being introduced to computers in a simple and gentle
way they might feel the freedom these electronic wonders have to offer.

"Today children we are going to learn how to make a shortcut icon for windows."

They don't stand a chance of believing they could make a difference.

@Danwood

+1000

_________________
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Amiga 500 + ACA500plus 8mb + 30gb CF
Raspberry Pi 3b+ and Amibian 1.4
Mac Mini G4 1GB Ram with the butterfly!!

@Mechanic

Are you suggesting to ditch all the modern languages and start again to code in assembler?.

_________________
Amiga 1200 desktop. Apollo 030/50 Mhz 8mb ram + ClassicWB + Wb 3.1
Amiga 500 + ACA500plus 8mb + 30gb CF
Raspberry Pi 3b+ and Amibian 1.4
Mac Mini G4 1GB Ram with the butterfly!!

@danwood

Quote:

danwood wrote: @Franko Well I wasn't around in the 70s and don't remember much of the 80s until around 88/89, but what you describe about shops being full every Saturday was certainly the case in the mid 90s, me and my friends would regularly go to Future Zone or Electronics Boutique, and local stores like Chips etc.... I think the difference being that if you owned a computer in the 70s/early 80s, you were an enthusiast as they didn't hold much value or use for the average consumer. ... Today, computers are an essential part of life and in every home. In the 70s only computer geeks had them, today, every one does, it's not really comparable as the average guy in the street would have had no need for a computer 30 years ago... With the widespread integration of technology in our lives and the speed at which it's developing, the fact everyone of us has a computer in our pockets these days and is connected on-line to each other.... I certainly wouldn't fancy going back 20 years, I'd be bored senseless after using what we have today.

Think you misread my post is said we went from "not having home computers in the 70's to having them in the 80's"...

I was never part of the "home brew" computer scene. My first home computer was the Vic 20 at the end of 1980 which was not a home brew kit it was a consumer product bought by your average consumer and you could do plenty with it, it wasn't something you went out and bought with the immediate intention of programming it....

Future Zone & Electronics Boutique were not around in those days, you went to either an independent store or WH Smith, Dixons, John Menzies, Boots The Chemist (yup that right Boots The Chemist), HMV or Virgin Record stores whom by around 1982 all had entire floors dedicated to home computing and software (90% of which were games)...

But like I said games were a part of it but most folk I knew back then in the 80's & 90's spent more time programming and doing all the other stuff mentioned instead of playing games...

Sorry to dispel another myth you have... but computers are not an essential part of life in every home, I can take you to more peoples homes whom I know where they have never owned a computer and never will than those who do own or use one (end ergo no internet)...

It's a fallacy to state everyone owns and uses a computer just like when folk say & think everyone owns and uses a mobile phone or everyone of us has a computer in our pockets (where do people get these crazy ideas from)...

You say you wouldn't fancy going back 20 years as you'd be bored senseless...

I hope you don't take offence to this but that has to be the saddest statement I've ever read on any of these forums and leaves me only able to draw one conclusion from that which is...

You haven't lived if that's the case and if you continue to hold such a view then your going to miss out on what life is all about, which is a great shame and only saddens me even further to know that computers, & the internet have become a substitute for what some people think life is all about and any faint glimmer of hope I may have held for the future of society has just flew right out the window big time...

_________________

@Mechanic

Quote:

Mechanic wrote: @Franko Franko wrote: If you have been around home computers for more than 25-30 years you are lucky in the sense that the first language you probably used, or were familiar with was BASIC.

Not really true after me and my mates wrote our first couple of programs in basic we soon learned it was pretty useless and began teaching ourselves assembler on the VIC 20 and when the C64 came along we never wrote anything for it in basic just assembler...

Quote:

Back then it was not sneered at as something for dummies or those of lesser minds. Today it is proclaimed loud and clear that if you want to program computers you must learn C or C++ and that nothing of use can be done with any simple to use and understand language.

C & C++ to me is just a slightly more advanced version of basic in terms of how you write code with it and assembler is not some mythical language that's too hard or impossible to learn, it's more down to laziness that people don't want to learn assembler as they have some strange preconception that it's too hard...

Quote:

Remember Flowcharts?

I remember them but I have never had a need to use them...

Quote:

If we could get back to a point where young minds, with all the distractions theyface, had even a chance of being introduced to computers in a simple and gentle way they might feel the freedom these electronic wonders have to offer.

Kids have always had distractions to face, that's not something new that magically appeared with computers, so there's no excuse there for making things simple and gentle for them just to learn how to use a computer for something other than games or the internet...

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@danwood

Sure you'd find fun, back then kids used to play in this place called 'the park' in the 'great outdoors', making dens, causing trouble, throwing stones at the windows of the old man at the end of the street, kicked a football about, tennis, rugby- people were more sporty and active in 1980BC (before computers). Just look at the amount of fat people around these days- obesity is escalating out of control because kids don't go to 'the park' any longer and do what previously generations classed as 'normal behaviour'- they rather stay locked up indoors texting, blogging, stuck on facebook, posting pointless status updates like 'went outside earlier it was 8c... freezing!!!!' Ha when I was a young kid I'd play out in the snow all the time... but that's a topic for another time!

I agree with both Danwood and Franko on this topic, times have indeed changed, but my memories are more alike Dan's, back in the day the Geeks ruled over computer-land.

However Franko, I do believe you have entirely forgotten about programming for the web. HTML, CSS, Javascript, ASP, Perl, PHP and whatever else there is took the limelight for a considerable amount of time- attention moved from software/games programming to web design and development. I can't believe I am the first one to even mention this after so many posts to the thread.

Now we live in era were 'Computers for the masses, not the Classes'.... or to put it another way... 'Computers for the masses, not just the Geeks!'

Last edited by djrikki on 11-Apr-2012 at 11:15 PM.
Last edited by djrikki on 11-Apr-2012 at 11:14 PM.

_________________

@djrikki

Quote:

Sure you'd find fun, back then kids used to play in this place called 'the park' in the 'great outdoors', making dens, causing trouble, throwing stones at the windows of the old man at the end of the street, kicked a football about, tennis, rugby- people were more sporty and active in 1980BC (before computers). Just look at the amount of fat people around these days- obesity is escalating out of control because kids don't go to 'the park' any longer and do what previously generations classed as 'normal behaviour'- they rather stay locked up indoors texting, blogging, stuck on facebook, posting pointless status updates like 'went outside earlier it was 8c... freezing!!!!' Ha when I was a young kid I'd play out in the snow all the time... but that's a topic for another time!

I meant technology rather than life in general. (Although ironically, 20 years ago I did do some of that stuff but probably spent more time indoors on my Amiga or playing games at friend's houses :)

If I traveled back in time now, knowing what we have today, or if my technology was reverted back to my set up in 1992. I wouldn't like to go back to the days of sitting tweaking my Workbench backdrop for something to do on a Saturday afternoon, having 4 TV channels and a VHS video recorder today. It was fine at the time because that's all we knew, but going back now, no thanks.

Even my Amiga set up today is great fun, being able to download any game or piece of software via an always on internet connection in seconds would have blown my mind when I was a kid, let alone having a 4 GIGABYTE solid state flash drive inside the machine that holds every game ever made for the machine! Hooked up to a 24" LCD screen, if you'd have told me that 20 years ago I wouldn't have believed it possible on the same machine, but the stuff we dreamed and fantasied about when we were kids is now possible, that's progress and I wouldn't like to un-do it.

That's before I've even mentioned surfing the web wirelessly on my iPad on the sofa, a book-sized device with a LCD display that's less than an inch thick... it still amazes me... or carrying around an iPhone that lets me connect to the internet and find out the answer to any question I could ever dream of, communicate with anyone in the world via video calls for free in seconds... that would have been in the realms of Star Trek when I was a kid, beyond imagination.

Technology today excites me more than it ever has, it's a great time to be into tech, we have all the memories of the old days, can still enjoy the old machines, games, apps of our youth, only with a lot more convenience (downloading Cannon Fodder or Lightwave from the EAB FTP server in 30 seconds VS loading it off floppy disks via mail-order on your single floppy drive machine), and he have these astounding new technologies as well. Best of both worlds.

Last edited by danwood on 11-Apr-2012 at 11:57 PM.
Last edited by danwood on 11-Apr-2012 at 11:56 PM.
Last edited by danwood on 11-Apr-2012 at 11:47 PM.
Last edited by danwood on 11-Apr-2012 at 11:46 PM.
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