@linnar

...but CUSA is selling a Chinese car with a BMW logo on it. No matter how much you say it's a BMW (because you've purchased the rights to that name), it is really just a Chinese car.

weird... I double posted.

Last edited by tommywright on 16-May-2012 at 03:34 PM.

I understand what linnar is saying. It's like buying a Sony Vaio or Apple computer. Your buying into the brand more than anything else. However can the brand really justify the price difference between a branded box and the EXACT same unbranded box? I doubt it.

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@CritAnime

The brand would mean something if there were people behind it (like more than 2 people). If they had customer service, support, engineers, sales, etc. then yes, you might have a brand worth buying into. A couple of dudes and a crappy website does not make a brand.

I realize that they have to start somewhere but this just seems like old school business thinking (take a simple product, put your name on it, sell it for a profit). It's antiquated. Look at more creative business models (like Open Source) and start a revolution!

@tommywright

Quote:

tommywright wrote: @linnar ...but CUSA is selling a Chinese car with a BMW logo on it. No matter how much you say it's a BMW (because you've purchased the rights to that name), it is really just a Chinese car.

Poor comparison, because BMW is not owned by Chinese companies ... yet.
Compare instead with Jaguar owned by an Indian company. Those who köåer Jaguar today, a car with extremely better quality than the Jaguar, built by the English owners. It is totally different engines and bottom plates taken from other automakers.
I tor to the buyers of Jaguar today can swear that they are running a true Jaguar.

Comparisons of this kind can never fully be applied to another company. But it can say a lot anyway.

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@CritAnime

Quote:

CritAnime wrote: I understand what linnar is saying. It's like buying a Sony Vaio or Apple computer. Your buying into the brand more than anything else. However can the brand really justify the price difference between a branded box and the EXACT same unbranded box? I doubt it.

Only buyers of a product that can say they think the price is reasonable. Those who do not buy may think it is too expensive and therefore they do not buy.

Anyway, I will build their own all in one PC with high quality. I started by looking parts that can fit into such a small computer. I discovered that it is more expensive than I expected.

Graphics .................. 400 - 500 EUR
SSD 2.5 "Hard Drive ... 300 - 900 EUR
Sound Card ..................... 200 - 300 EUR
Memories ...................... 100 - 150 EUR
Motherboards ................. 200 - 400 EUR
Power supply ............. 100 - 200 EUR
Processor ................. 300 - 900 EUR

Total parts ........... 1,600 to 3,350 EUR

I asked my local computer dealer what he would take the charge to assemble these parts .............. 100 - 200 EUR

I asked the local plastlådetillverkaren what he would take charge of casting a box for my drawings. He responded that "plug" (mold) would cost between 20,000 and € 40,000 ....
I then asked what a pc (1 pc) case would cost if he made 10.000st. He said between 200 EUR - 400 EUR (I had a few different forms of them).

Total PC € 1,900 - € 3,950 ($ 2,440 - $ 5,080)

In addition, warranty service and some other things. My guess is that a computer's price must be increased by 20-30% to cover these costs.

The company must also make a profit on their product, here's an additional 20% surcharge.

My computer gets a little better than the Amiga Mini, but very expensive, however I choose if I will be on top.

Amiga Mini is not expensive if we start counting on it.

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@tommywright

Quote:

tommywright wrote: @CritAnime The brand would mean something if there were people behind it (like more than 2 people). If they had customer service, support, engineers, sales, etc. then yes, you might have a brand worth buying into. A couple of dudes and a crappy website does not make a brand. I realize that they have to start somewhere but this just seems like old school business thinking (take a simple product, put your name on it, sell it for a profit). It's antiquated. Look at more creative business models (like Open Source) and start a revolution!

What do you know about their plans?

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@SpaceDruid

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: @vox The sad thing is (to me anyway), had Amiga/Eyetech/Hyperion moved with the Hardware times and went the same inevitable chip path Apple did, that might have been a "real" Amiga being reviewed. I would have liked a wee Amiga like that, sat under my TV in the living room. Chip families don't mean anything to the end user, just the product they buy. But that's a very old argument I've dredged up. I was just feeling nostalgic seeing an Amiga in a magazine being reviewed. I felt like it was still the 1990's...

When I read old Amiga magazines I get so nostalgic that I must close the door. I hope that time comes again (with door open)!
If that time comes again it will be on today's technological level and with the current time only (future?) Software. How it will be connected in detlaj to feel like the good old days I do not know. However, I have suspicions ...

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@linnar

Quote:

My computer gets a little better than the Amiga Mini, but very expensive, however I choose if I will be on top. Amiga Mini is not expensive if we start counting on it.

It is very expensive compared to real value of hardware inside (about half of price) and software (null)

Compared to your listed system, they don`t have high end gfx or sound, just for example.

Customer can`t say is it valuable because that person has already decided to go for a product. But those who don`t know real hardware value, might get dissapointed when learning they could get either two such machines of exact same quality or much way better one.

Mind that it is computer shipped with beta version of "OS" so users are also beta testers without prior warning.

Amiga-org doesn`t show any Amiga Mini users, neither does You Tube, so there is no confirmation of existance other then copy paste news.

Amiga-org has mostly bug reports on "OS" by existing VIC and C64x customers

Quote:

That is what the company that manufactures premium products are able to build into their products. Price is important because it must reflect the level of premium. That is what the Commodore trying to do, build a premium brand and the brand is "Amiga".

What is premium about the product? Mac`s have designed and expensive mouse and casing or are built in monitor and very different and long developed OS. Other premium companies try to build their offers to include extra options like Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, better monitor etc.

Best we can say is that they are EMULATING premium product and brandmania

Last edited by vox on 20-May-2012 at 10:13 AM.
Last edited by vox on 18-May-2012 at 06:24 PM.

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@linnar

Quote:

What do you know about their plans?

I don't know anything about their future plans but currently they don't support or contribute to OSS which makes them a leach on the system.

Last edited by tommywright on 18-May-2012 at 06:28 PM.
Last edited by tommywright on 18-May-2012 at 06:27 PM.

@linnar

Quote:

What do you know about their plans?

They have no realistic plans presented other then selling full someone elses products with Amiga badge and a Linux as high end product.

Most of the plans such as AROS support, completely new OS, A1200 like case and high end PC system of 3 000 - 20 000$ range have proven to be about vague promises.

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@voxVox!

I picked the best that was on the shelf and put together a computer on the paper.
My local dealer said that it goes as well with about what the Amiga Mini contains. The difference of velocity is small and does not justify the price difference. When I picked hiop share exactly the same as the Amiga Mini (it for about $ 2200) I would have to pay about $ 1400 for. The local dealer said he would also take the same pay as Cusa if he would put together the same things in the same case.
You must not forget that support, service commitments, guarantees, logistics and pay costs up to half of the final price. You can not just add up the loose parts that you put together yourself.
One reason that raises the price of Cusa is that they manufacture in small batches. Keep in mind that they are a few people (up to 10st) in a lolkal and screws up all the machines (except all in one VIC) by hand. When they are large (if they become big ones) will of course all the machines that are bolted together on an assembly line at speed. Then prices might be reduced by 20-30%.

Vox, assemble a computer on the paper with the exact same parts as Cusa Amiga Mini. Calculate your own cost and add what you need to add the support, service commitments, guarantees, logistics. I think your computer is more expensive than the Amiga mini.
Most people forget the logistics! Thus, when you put together your computer, you pick up your order on a website you created to sell, pick up the computer, pack it in a box with your pressure and with dämpnade styrofoam around the computer and put it under your arm and go to someone who can bring your computer to the customer. It costs more than you think, I know because I've done it many times.

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@vox

Quote:

vox wrote: @linnar Quote: What do you know about their plans? They have no realistic plans presented other then selling full someone elses products with Amiga badge and a Linux as high end product. Most of the plans such as AROS support, completely new OS, A1200 like case and high end PC system of 3 000 - 20 000$ range have proven to be about vague promises.

I think you make a mistake when you are constantly malign Cusa. It is enklet to pick up other business texts and write it down as they do not have any plans. I could easily do it with Apple or Microsoft.

Cusa had plans but they'll never get to see before they present them.
What we know is that Cusa has clearly said that they will never build a PPC computer. They can not even use an AmigaOS-like OS on their computers called "Amiga" because of the agreement between AmigaInc and Hyperion.
This is by far and we know that clear now why we can not demand this of Cusa.

What is left?
A very nice designed and well-equipped PC with its own OS with its own name and that can run any PC compatible OS if required.

What more do you whining about?

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@linnar

Quote:

I think you make a mistake when you are constantly malign Cusa. It is enklet to pick up other business texts and write it down as they do not have any plans. I could easily do it with Apple or Microsoft.

I think you make a mistake when constantly defending something that is a retro and Linux exploit and rip off expensive PC without any added value.

I am talking just about what they have OFFICIALLY PROMISED and never came true.

About service, guarantee ... its offered by components maker (ASUS, ASRock ...) with their nationalwide or worldwide dealer, so no, no, no C=USA doesn`t do that, neither has facilty or people, hell, they don`t provide much support for (not their own) Linux.

I don`t understand how do you fail to see its like your OEM small shop computer builder would say that he is Apple and that he will conquer the world if having ability to use Apple name, while meanwhile selling what he would do anyday for about twice of the price.

Don`t know about your dealer prices, but in East Europe, mentioned components of Amiga Mini have value of about less then $1000 (of high end one) with assembling.

There is really nothing special and innovative about it.

Its own OS? Please go and download latest Mint

About CUSA not making PowerPC board

a) It was a result of community challenge forum, so they also kind of promised it
b) Amiga Inc promised it, but instead they gave licence to C=USA

Quote:

April 22, 2007 - After months of designs and negotiations Amiga, Inc. and ACK Software Controls, Inc. announce that new hardware is on its way for Amiga users.

Last edited by vox on 21-May-2012 at 04:30 PM.

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@linnar

I don't know where your getting your numbers from. but anyway I priced a Amiga Mini specced system myself and here is what I came out with.

Case £58 (the same case as cusa just without the Amiga and Commodore branding)
ZOTAC Z68-ITX WiFi Supreme £150
Ram Crucial Balistix 16gb £256
Seagate 3TB HDD £123
I7 3.6ghz cpu £193
£80 for PSU and parts
£136 for Blu Ray writer.

gives me £988 for total system build.

This is given a "high-end" mini itx build of the same high end spec cusa give. So I can't see the value of what cusa does to be honest.

Last edited by CritAnime on 22-May-2012 at 04:22 AM.

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@vox

Your feedback is characterized by that you are a notorious hater of all that is not the Amiga Community embraced. Therefore, it is difficult to objectively argue with you.

Cusa did not promise something they have not kept. However, they discussed various ways to move on until they found the way they are now selected. It is quite natural to choose what they opted for another route is not whether to use the name "Amiga" and take tillbkak it to his fonra greatness. I would also prefer that there is a direct development of Amiga Classic would be the funniest choice. But we must be realistic, such a choice can only be a business as a hobby that can never return to what once was.

Commodore OS Vision is Linux Mint! Indisputable is that! But that is just so now, in the future when it developed more it will become a separate distro. Right now, we do not develop their own distro, things must grow with time at the same rate as developers flowing to.
Commodore OS Vision is the best and only choice for its own operating system they can get. Another option is not available! They MUST not use an operating system similar to AmigaOS, or name where the "Amiga" is included. Hyperion has clearly stated that they will go to court if it happens. What is left?
In the future it may change and the future may be closer than you think ...
Support for the Commodore OS Vision comes when it left the beta stage.

The price of the parts for Mini Amiga, I can get to $ 800-1200. but you must add the case, logistics, assembly, warehousing, service, support, warranties, and several other costs that are often forgotten. Ask me I'm working on that. You can easily add 50-100% berioende on how much you make yourself. $ 800-1200 is thus easy $ 1200-1800. Almost all the shops hang up 50-100% of the purchase price. otherwise they might as well close it down.

The computer I picked up contains the SSD and it is very expensive.

Cusa will never build a PPC computer for its own account but they have said they can develop any computer, including PPC, if they get at least 500 pre-orders.

One question:
Do you understand that a company that starts with the 1st employee and now has 6-10 employees must have time to grow?
Or do you think they can accomplish great things directly?

I think they accomplished an awful lot of little people in a very short time.

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@CritAnime

Quote:

CritAnime wrote: @linnar I don't know where your getting your numbers from. but anyway I priced a Amiga Mini specced system myself and here is what I came out with. Case £58 (the same case as cusa just without the Amiga and Commodore branding) ZOTAC Z68-ITX WiFi Supreme £150 Ram Crucial Balistix 16gb £256 Seagate 3TB HDD £123 I7 3.6ghz cpu £193 £80 for PSU and parts £136 for Blu Ray writer. gives me £988 for total system build. This is given a "high-end" mini itx build of the same high end spec cusa give. So I can't see the value of what cusa does to be honest.

I did not look at Amiga Mini exactly, I just picked up a computer from the local computer store's catalog. I took the best thing the lowest price and the best thing the highest price.
As I wrote earlier, I also picked up a copy of the Amiga Mini for $ 800-1200. Add on what companies need to add on the price and you up here in the £ 988 +50% = £ 1,500 ($ 2,200) or £ 988 +100% = £ 2,000 ($ 2,900)

Cheapest Mini Amiga without SSD costs $ 1345
Most Expensive Amiga Mini without SSD costs $ 1745
Most Expensive Amiga Mini with SSD costs $ 2740

Compare your price your price $ 1400 (= £ 988). Add this company's premium = $ 2100-2800. Yes, you see, your price is about the same as Cusa.

I think Cusa takes very little paid work!
It can take compared to sitting at home and put together a computer yourself. Try to pick up and deliver computers into the World of warranty, support, service and more. You will be higher in price than Cusa.

Large companies that produce thousands of computers each day may hold very different prices. There is no Cusa yet but they might get there a few years. However, I think they should keep the higher price for the price is a quality indicator.

Commodore Amiga is an Amiga for the future. No other way, I think there is.
Compare with x1000, an old slow low-tech computer for about $ 2800th Is this the future of the Amiga? Hardly!

However, I think the x1000 is a fun and great hobby computer AmigNG. Those who developed it has done a great job. I myself would like to buy one but can not afford.

Last edited by linnar on 22-May-2012 at 06:16 AM.

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@linnar

lol you make me laugh in a good way :) . My specs are for i7 and 16gb ram and a 3tb hdd. Cusa's closest unit is only i3 and 4gb ram and 1tb hdd. factor in import taxes and shipping and CUSA's effort doesn't even come close to been the same as what I would get if I went out and sourced the same components. my prices were even top end of the scale and I found some components, such as the ram and psu, could be bought even cheaper and still give the same results. Given the same kind of money for the high-end mini and I can get a kick ass monitor, keyboard and mouse.

Again the Zotac box box, which is the vic mini, can be bought a lot cheaper wihtout the amiga badges. Again getting it from CUSA, with shipping and import taxes, again makes no viable sense.

Now I do understand basic buisness principles. I am not so slack that I don't get that cusa need to make some sort of profit. But as a consumer, who just recently upgraded their computer with modern hardware, cusa simply aren't viable in the current climate. I couldn't justify so much extra for simply a badge.

Last edited by CritAnime on 22-May-2012 at 07:51 AM.
Last edited by CritAnime on 22-May-2012 at 07:37 AM.

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@linnar

Quote:

What is left? A very nice designed and well-equipped PC with its own OS with its own name and that can run any PC compatible OS if required.

OMG! That's so incredibly short sighted! There is a TON that they can do!

Lets say it's true that CUSA can't use AROS (which I seriously have doubt about.. no court would uphold something as vague as not being able to use an OS that "looks" like AOS.. that could mean anything). Even if this were true or that CUSA is just scared of Hyperion or whatever, nothing says they can't encourage customers to install AROS for fun.... which is exactly what they should do! Beyond that, they should be encouraging AROS development with funds, meetups, hardware, software, etc. etc.

AROS is not ready.. yes, this is true (for now). So CUSA chose Linux. Great choice! I love Linux and love the Linux community. What makes Linux so cool to people like me is the whole Open Source thing. Freedom in software! The freedom to develop, change and distribute protected hardware and software is the future. Anyone not on board will be left behind very soon (my prediction). If the Commodore name ever wanted to make a comeback, this is where it could happen. These OSS OSH companies make money by supporting the products they give away, taking a cut on software sales, music, movies, cloud space, etc. Even the gaming industry (my industry) is taking notice to this type of business structure. There are now several free games that make money through mini purchases.

Ok... battery is running out here... just look at the creative ways OSS and OSH are making money and come up with something like it.

Oh.. and cases! They could make super cool, retro cases like they did with the 64x. What happened to that?!?

..and merchandise! Where is the merchandise?!?

Geez... I should be running that company. :p

Last edited by tommywright on 22-May-2012 at 09:06 AM.
Last edited by tommywright on 22-May-2012 at 09:04 AM.

@CritAnime

Quote:

CritAnime wrote: @linnar lol you make me laugh in a good way :) . My specs are for i7 and 16gb ram and a 3tb hdd. Cusa's closest unit is only i3 and 4gb ram and 1tb hdd. factor in import taxes and shipping and CUSA's effort doesn't even come close to been the same as what I would get if I went out and sourced the same components. my prices were even top end of the scale and I found some components, such as the ram and psu, could be bought even cheaper and still give the same results. Given the same kind of money for the high-end mini and I can get a kick ass monitor, keyboard and mouse. Again the Zotac box box, which is the vic mini, can be bought a lot cheaper wihtout the amiga badges. Again getting it from CUSA, with shipping and import taxes, again makes no viable sense. Now I do understand basic buisness principles. I am not so slack that I don't get that cusa need to make some sort of profit. But as a consumer, who just recently upgraded their computer with modern hardware, cusa simply aren't viable in the current climate. I couldn't justify so much extra for simply a badge.

You decide what you want to buy or if you wish to make yourself.
Building itself offers a considerably cheaper price than buying ready no matter components.

It's not a big country portrayed in the components' price (excluding SSD). It can vary up or down a bit. That which costs the same no matter components are mounting, support, logistics, profit and so on.
The cheapest (or perhaps least expensive?) Amiga is almost half the price mark-up.

Amiga Mini is not cheap, I know, but a small business can not live on delivering a lot cheaper than they do now. A little further ahead, perhaps they can saka price when they know what it's all about costs. When the series increases maybe they can buy cheaper components and so on.

I think you know what I mean even if we compared different components.

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