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/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga Development
      /  Every Day a New Surprise (Copyright Violations of muidev.de/MUI4)
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PosterThread
eliyahu 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 13:42:29
#21 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1946
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@thread

i know this sounds crazy, but, did anyone actually email thore or jens to bring this to their attention? or did you just expect they'd see this forum post?

-- eliyahu

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Jupp3 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 13:45:34
#22 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1225
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
who then moan if others create something different then

I guess you're referring to complaints about OS4's MUI4 being (partially) incompatible / incomplete / different compared to MorphOS MUI4?

If you (like you said) create something different, also call it something different.

-EDIT-

As an example, AROS implementation of MUI is called ZUNE

Last edited by Jupp3 on 09-Dec-2014 at 01:51 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 13:50:19
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6278
From: Unknown

@Jupp3

I do not know if I would have called it MUI4. Perhaps it would have been a better idea to have used a completely different name like Zune on Aros (if possible).

I was mainly referring to technical differences and differences in implementations (what is affecting developers).

Users are not interested in that, they use applications and the OS not the GUI toolkit. And nobody will decide for MorphOS or for AmigaOS just because of the MUI implementations.

And what is the benefit of the MorphOS team to sit on the sources? The same is true for the team behind AmigaOS in some cases. It leads to splitted developments and less cross-platform development. Really fantastic

Last edited by OlafS25 on 09-Dec-2014 at 01:55 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 09-Dec-2014 at 01:52 PM.

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Jupp3 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 13:54:06
#24 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1225
From: Unknown

@eliyahu

Quote:
i know this sounds crazy, but, did anyone actually email thore or jens to bring this to their attention? or did you just expect they'd see this forum post?

Or why not contact Albert Einstein directly? Sounds like he's the guy responsible for the documentation.

Last edited by Jupp3 on 09-Dec-2014 at 01:54 PM.

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rzookol 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 13:54:27
#25 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Oct-2005
Posts: 312
From: Poland, Lublin

@NutsAboutAmiga

MUI4 is not a contribute in MorphOS. It's an integral part of Morphos developed by MorphOS Team members. It's all about copying autodocs without asking authors (tokai, jaca and others).

btw. AmigaOs MUI4 for is incompatible with MorphOS one. NewStuff example gives "Failed to create application!". If AmigaOS4 MUI4 will go this way it won't be any pros for it.

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wawa 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 13:55:32
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
Who has stolen what?

Generally I understand that copyright should stay inside because honor who honor deserves but I generally do not understand the whole "we do not give anything to the others" attitude in parts of the OS development teams. That is true for MUI4 and MorphOS team (who then moan if others create something different then, if MUI would be open then all would use it) but also true for most of developments behind AmigaOS. Instead of working together better blaming each other . That is really "Amiga spirit", you do not find that in any other retro community


i can understand the concerns here. i have already red things like "odyssey is os4 browser, morphos developers have put some work into" as example. with the release of amikit version of mui4 for amiga as far as i remember the note was saying initially something like "After more than 17 years since MUI 3.8 was released the new upgrade brings the same experience as AmigaOS4 users have been enjoying for years". apparently it has been rephrased to "for some time", but you can still see the original wording here:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=75995&highlight=amikit+mui4
this just about a year (?) after os4 got its reverse engineered equivalent for mui4 at all.
these are all small things, but when you constantly stumble upon something like that then it starts to look like a general attitude to reinvent facts, and i have hard time to sympathize with it.

Last edited by wawa on 09-Dec-2014 at 01:56 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 13:58:31
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6278
From: Unknown

@rzookol

The pros is that it runs on 68k (68k users far outnumbering MorphOS user). Where does MUI4 (MorphOS) run on? MorphOS? Somewhere else?

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billyfish 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 14:02:07
#28 ]
Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2008
Posts: 32
From: Unknown

@rzookol

Quote:

rzookol wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

MUI4 is not a contribute in MorphOS. It's an integral part of Morphos developed by MorphOS Team members. It's all about copying autodocs without asking authors (tokai, jaca and others).


Permission should have been asked for. The copyright definitely needs to be kept. though I couldn't find where all of the "Albert Einstein"s were,; probably me looking in the wrong place. The only place I could find "Albert Einstsein" was in an example in the aboutbox autodoc.

Quote:

btw. AmigaOs MUI4 for is incompatible with MorphOS one. NewStuff example gives "Failed to create application!". If AmigaOS4 MUI4 will go this way it won't be any pros for it.


This wasn't the case when I tried it. You needed to make sure a couple of libraries were in the library assign, AFAICR.

Last edited by billyfish on 09-Dec-2014 at 02:05 PM.

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billyfish 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 14:05:22
#29 ]
Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2008
Posts: 32
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
@OlafS25

Quote:
Who has stolen what?

Generally I understand that copyright should stay inside because honor who honor deserves but I generally do not understand the whole "we do not give anything to the others" attitude in parts of the OS development teams. That is true for MUI4 and MorphOS team (who then moan if others create something different then, if MUI would be open then all would use it) but also true for most of developments behind AmigaOS. Instead of working together better blaming each other . That is really "Amiga spirit", you do not find that in any other retro community


i can understand the concerns here. i have already red things like "odyssey is os4 browser, morphos developers have put some work into" as example. with the release of amikit version of mui4 for amiga as far as i remember the note was saying initially something like "After more than 17 years since MUI 3.8 was released the new upgrade brings the same experience as AmigaOS4 users have been enjoying for years". apparently it has been rephrased to "for some time", but you can still see the original wording here:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=75995&highlight=amikit+mui4
this just about a year (?) after os4 got its reverse engineered equivalent for mui4 at all.
these are all small things, but when you constantly stumble upon something like that then it starts to look like a general attitude to reinvent facts, and i have hard time to sympathize with it.


Ok i hadn't actually seen any of this, though the link you posted definitely shouldn't be using the word "exclusively".

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OlafS25 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 14:05:36
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6278
From: Unknown

@wawa

that is marketing to me. I think MUI (based on original sources by Stefan Stuntz) is in development there for years already. At every case I read (from MorphOS people) that this "MUI4" implementation has nothing in common with the MorphOS implementation. It would have been better to use a different name to avoid this kind of disccusions and (regarding the topic) it is not ok to copy work of others and remove copyrights.

The text for the new Amikit version was made to be sensational so I think it was a little overdoing there.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 09-Dec-2014 at 02:11 PM.

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broadblues 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 14:08:40
#31 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4444
From: Portsmouth England

@wawa

I don't know about the fine tuning of the wording, but bear in mond the 68k world had only 3.8 and AmigaOS 4.0 had 3.9 since I started using it so AmigaOS 3.x have been behind for years even if AmigaOS 4.1 onlt got a pubic version of MUI 4 just recently.

Now they are roughtly equal I suppose.

MUI4 is completely independent of the OS now, it was always a contribution but now is not even tested by the beta testers (and TBH it shows ).

@thread

The using of someone copyright is unacceptable, it would have been very simple to email and ask. But one thing I find odd, why replace with "Albert Einstein" seems totally stupid thing to do. has someone dleiberatly hacked in and done this as a 'wind up'?

Where is this copyright notice anyway? The standard autodocs don't have acopyright fieled in them as far as I can see.

Last edited by broadblues on 09-Dec-2014 at 02:09 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 14:10:10
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6278
From: Unknown

@billyfish

I was a little wondering about that too but I think that has more to do with Amikit than MUI. Amikit includes a lot of exclusive software contributed by the original authors, officially you get 3.9 from muidev site and 4.0 only for AmigaOS (PPC). So the new MUI4 version was special compiled for 68k for Amikit.

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broadblues 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 14:13:16
#33 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4444
From: Portsmouth England

@billyfish

Quote:


Ok i hadn't actually seen any of this, though the link you posted definitely shouldn't be using the word "exclusively".


The exclusive refers to the 68k version a only being available as part of "AmiKit" as I understand it. I suppose they commisioned it it?

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billyfish 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 14:26:51
#34 ]
Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2008
Posts: 32
From: Unknown

@broadblues
@olafs25

Ah yup, my bad I didn't realise the 68k version at muidev.de was 3.9 not 4.0.

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Jupp3 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 15:08:10
#35 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1225
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
68k users far outnumbering MorphOS user

While that might be true "technically", I think you should count out:
1)People whose classic amiga can't run MUI properly (all people who use their 1MB A500 for occassional gaming from floppies)
2)People who don't have any use for MUI: Even if your Amiga is sufficiently expanded, if you mostly do gaming and watching demos (and not f.ex. pretending you could comfortably use the internet with classic amiga), you have no need for it.

I'd assume that (especially point 1) to be the majority of 68k "users"...

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OlafS25 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 15:23:08
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6278
From: Unknown

@Jupp3

first there is no "classic amiga" but only amigas.

I am now and then on amiga meeting(s) and I can assure you that there people show "A500", "A2000", "A1200", "A4000" and so on and all call them amiga (without classic).

I do not know how many people have unexpanded A500 as their main system, most have heavy expanded A2000 or A4000 or A1200. Or they use emulation. So most people in the 68k community can indeed use MUI.

I would bet with you that the majority of amiga users today uses "no real hardware" at all but emulation (and not AmigaOS PPC, MorphOS on PPC Mac or even Aros on X86).

I personal use my "amiga" environment very comfortable for internet, it is not more or less "amiga" to most people than old Macs (or any other PPC environment).

Last edited by OlafS25 on 09-Dec-2014 at 03:23 PM.

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phoenixkonsole 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 15:45:40
#37 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1770
From: Unknown

@OlafS25
just in case someone needs to sue someone else... I would sponsor it : )

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 09-Dec-2014 at 03:45 PM.

_________________
AROS Broadway - AEROS - Aminux - AmiCloud - indieGO! Appstore - AmiWallet - VAN lossless video codec - AMC Amiga media Center -KrypUnite - LibertyNet - MinX - amigaNX

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OlafS25 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 15:53:53
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6278
From: Unknown

@phoenixkonsole

You would create a "sue fond"?

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itix 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 16:29:33
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@OlafS25

Quote:

Users are not interested in that, they use applications and the OS not the GUI toolkit. And nobody will decide for MorphOS or for AmigaOS just because of the MUI implementations.


Not because of MUI per se but because you get better software with that.

Quote:

And what is the benefit of the MorphOS team to sit on the sources?


If I develop something for MorphOS it does not automatically mean I want to share it with the whole world. I can, if I choose to do so.

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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phoenixkonsole 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 9-Dec-2014 17:45:25
#40 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1770
From: Unknown

@OlafS25
If People Act this way I would like to help. Having to low pocketmoney should not prevent from fighting for rights : )

_________________
AROS Broadway - AEROS - Aminux - AmiCloud - indieGO! Appstore - AmiWallet - VAN lossless video codec - AMC Amiga media Center -KrypUnite - LibertyNet - MinX - amigaNX

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